SHOUT.BCS broken AI behavior

swit

I see that there are quite a few changes done to the SHOUT.BCS script. The most important one is changing how the innocents reacts to Shout 99. Instead of turning to "enemy" like in BG1 and BG2:EE, they stay "blue" after hearing that someone is attacked and triggers RunAwayFromNoLeaveArea (run away from the specified creature, for the specified time, without leaving the current area).

This causes beyond ridicules situations in which no one really reacts hostile to your actions. And you can still speak to creatures that are running away from you like nothing really happened. Here is an example:
1. Start a new game with the any pregen character
2. C: MoveToArea("AR2301")
3. Attack any innocent character there
4. Watch the famous Bentley Mirrorshade run away from you instead of protecting his Inn like in BG1. Talk to any character that are running away from you (you should not be able to do that).

This is just an example. This behavior is true in most areas due to how common shout.bcs is used. In original game (and in BG2:EE) not every innocent class person will run away (of course most will), some will fight you if they hear shout 99. Not sure if this is change done in the latest 1.3 beta, but just in case I summon @Dee

btw. if you are going to keep some improvements in SHOUT.BCS script (things like STATE_STONE_DEATH and STATE_FROZEN_DEATH, more realistic AI reaction dependent on the Alignment etc.), or any other common script, the same changes should be done to BG2:EE, imo. Currently almost all these common scripts that have been updated in BG:EE use the vanilla BG2 versions in BG2:EE.

edit: I've attached a fix that brings back BG1 behavior while still keeping the AI improvements. Added 2 blocks that will turn Innocent class creature hostile if the innocent cre is evil and you attack someone with evil aligement, and if the innocent cre is not evil and you attack someone with good or neutral aligement. Otherwise they will run while keeping blue status, like in current version. Innocent class will never "MoveToObject(LastHeardBy(Myself))" like other classes. If they don't have anything else in thier scripts to control thier behavior, they will run even while being hostile (like BG1 and BG2:EE). There is also BG2:EE version attached with all improvements from BG:EE (the only difference is additional shout 57 and to shorten it up I've used OR trigger for both shouts). Using BG2:EE version in both games may be a good idea since that additional shout spreads the shout range (only by non innocent classes that have been turned to hostile) which is a more realistic approach, imo. Of course this need to be tested becouse I don't know what was the reason for changing the default behavior.

AstroBryGuy

I think a better solution would be to give someone capable like Bently a unique script. If a group of evil marauders came armed to the teeth with magic weapons and started killing the patrons, the waitress is more likely to dive for cover behind a table than come charging at them with a broken tankard in her hand.

For most innocents (e.g., townsfolk), the BGEE version of the SHOUT script is very reasonable. They'll fight if they are directly attacked, but run for cover in a generally hostile situation.

swit

AstroBryGuy said:

I think a better solution would be to give someone capable like Bently a unique script. If a group of evil marauders came armed to the teeth with magic weapons and started killing the patrons, the waitress is more likely to dive for cover behind a table than come charging at them with a broken tankard in her hand.

Sure, the more uniqueness the better, but finding out all these innocent characters that are meant to attack the party and are currently chickens, would be a huge task compared to fixing the shout.bcs that has been broken by one of the BG:EE patches. I'd prefer devs to spend the time on more important matters.

AstroBryGuy said:

For most innocents (e.g., townsfolk), the BGEE version of the SHOUT script is very reasonable. They'll fight if they are directly attacked, but run for cover in a generally hostile situation.

No it is not. Like I said in the post currently you can talk to townsfolks (standard dialogue) while they are running from you, which is neither realistic, nor expected. BG1 version, BG2:EE and my fixed version, all will result in the exact thing that you want - townsfolks will fight when attacked, and run if someone shout about the danger.

CrevsDaak

Seems like a good idea to me to add a "You beast, go away" dialog line for Commoners-and-the-like, and to make a unique script for Bentley and those that could protect Townfolks, but PLEASE DON'T revert this like it was in BG1, I very often play evil *and* most of the times I play for 20-40 minutes, so when I gotta save to finish my 'gaming session' _I gotta save to finish my gaming session, seriously_ sow please don't

Also, it's not like you see somebody murdering another person in the street and because of that you turn hostile toward the killer (well, according to the game engine, you won't).

AstroBryGuy

swit said:

AstroBryGuy said:

I think a better solution would be to give someone capable like Bently a unique script. If a group of evil marauders came armed to the teeth with magic weapons and started killing the patrons, the waitress is more likely to dive for cover behind a table than come charging at them with a broken tankard in her hand.

Sure, the more uniqueness the better, but finding out all these innocent characters that are meant to attack the party and are currently chickens, would be a huge task compared to fixing the shout.bcs that has been broken by one of the BG:EE patches. I'd prefer devs to spend the time on more important matters.

AstroBryGuy said:

For most innocents (e.g., townsfolk), the BGEE version of the SHOUT script is very reasonable. They'll fight if they are directly attacked, but run for cover in a generally hostile situation.

No it is not. Like I said in the post currently you can talk to townsfolks (standard dialogue) while they are running from you, which is neither realistic, nor expected. BG1 version, BG2:EE and my fixed version, all will result in the exact thing that you want - townsfolks will fight when attacked, and run if someone shout about the danger.

Good point about the dialog. As most of the commoners have the RUNENEMY script, I see that they would run. I did a spot-check and found some that don't, so they would have to updated to have the RUNENEMY script (or they'd just stand there red-circled).

If one doesn't want to make everyone red-circled, but still wants to stop the fleeing npcs from talking to you, you could add the "DialogInterrupt(FALSE)" command to SHOUT.BCS. This state isn't saved, so after the PCs left and came back, the townsfolk would talk to you again.

Dee

The change was intentional, in order to allow the player to still conduct business. Strictly speaking not the most realistic of behaviors, but important for keeping the game moving forward.

swit

Thanks for the answears. Strange decision, as this is not what shout.bcs was designed for, so you are forcing a gameplay change that could be interpreted as a regression compared to the original game. Especially when it causes situations like with Bentley Mirrorshade and who knows how many more characters.

So what about BG2:EE? Is it going to be implemented there too?

Dee

I don't believe we changed anything about this behavior in BGII:EE, no. As I recall--and this was about two years ago that it happened, so I may be misremembering the details--the change was made particularly because there were NPCs in BG:EE that used that script that the player might need to talk to, either to buy or sell items or to initiate or complete quests, and a great deal more situations where the player might accidentally or intentionally start combat in high-population areas. In BGII:EE those situations are fewer, and they're generally built into the areas already, so there's less need to change it.

Again, though, this all happened about two years ago, so I could be misremembering the details of why it happened.