"Sleep" is broken

Ygramul

The *Sleep* spell is broken! It always was.

A level 1 spell that acts as "Mass Paralysis" with no friendly fire?!

It is strictly inferior, e.g., to Color Spray (friendly fire, smaller area).

It should have:
1. mobs wake up when hurt
2. friendly fire

(I think the mod Spell Revisions fixed this, but it never was ported to EE.)

elminster

Meh it makes fighting trash mobs (along with Ankhegs and bandits) a lot easier. But it generally doesn't help you against any opponent that has a unique name (bassilus for instance). In BG2 it becomes a worthless spell (when other level 1 spells like magic missile, chromatic orb, shield, etc still can be used).

Plus its worked as it does for the last 16(ish) years. I don't see a reason to change it.

the_spyder

Considering the very few number of casts a low level wizard gets, plus all of the other disadvantages they get (no armor, few hit points, extremely limited ability to damage) I think that it is eminently powered correctly. Sure, a wizard can knock out a group of kobolds. ONE group. It makes that particular encounter easier so that he can sit out the rest of the dungeon throwing rocks at the opponents.

CrevsDaak

Agreed, Sleep is overpowered. TobEx fixed the sleep opcode so creatures would wake up when hurt.

Pibaro

Well I think it's underpowered. Any sleeping creature should be killed by one single sword (or any other melee) attack.

Sed

Isn't the whole point of enemies not waking up to counter the fact that "coup de grace" doesn't exist in the game, as you should be able to kill with one attack?

HerrderGezeiten

That screams for a critical miss Meme,...

Tresset

It isn't as "broken" as Skull Trap...

Meanbunny

Not all spell are created equally. Some are going to be more powerful than others. Sleep, I believe is a marquee spell for mages especially if you are playing solo. Mages just do not have the advantages that melee type classes have early on in the game. I believe it does not work on boss monsters ( I could be wrong ) paired with the fact that your other level 1 spells get stronger as the game goes on and by BG2 I think it balances out fairly well so that Sleep is not a MUST memorize spell.

It is definitely a very powerful spell though, that I do not deny.

SharGuidesMyHand

Sleep is OP'd against certain (living) enemies, but completely useless against others (the undead), so I'd say that that balances things out.

atcDave

Sed said:

Isn't the whole point of enemies not waking up to counter the fact that "coup de grace" doesn't exist in the game, as you should be able to kill with one attack?

Yes, the "coup de grace" is how it's normally played in PNP, AND that's how it worked in the Gold Box games back in the 80s.

AstroBryGuy

Meanbunny said:

Not all spell are created equally. Some are going to be more powerful than others. Sleep, I believe is a marquee spell for mages especially if you are playing solo. Mages just do not have the advantages that melee type classes have early on in the game. I believe it does not work on boss monsters ( I could be wrong ) paired with the fact that your other level 1 spells get stronger as the game goes on and by BG2 I think it balances out fairly well so that Sleep is not a MUST memorize spell.

It is definitely a very powerful spell though, that I do not deny.

Sleep is the bomb in BG1 and useless in BG2. It only affects creatures of 4 HD or less, so most "boss" monsters are unaffected because they have too many HD (also why it's useless in BG2).

Ygramul

Tresset said:

It isn't as "broken" as Skull Trap...

Skull Trap is nerfed to 12d6 in SCS (which is the only way I play BG).

the_spyder

I guess my question to the OP would be, what is a low level wizard supposed to do without Sleep?

Pibaro

He is supposed to cast infravision!!!
Enemies wil run away in fear!!!!!

JLee

Sleep...BGs apology for sicking dire wolves and ogres on level 1 mages.

Abi_Dalzim

the_spyder said:

I guess my question to the OP would be, what is a low level wizard supposed to do without Sleep?

Shamelessly abuse Blindness and its ten turn duration to whittle an enemy down with sling stones. If there's more than one, then run away.

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Mathsorcerer

If Sleep is broken then by all means don't fix it. I like it just as it is. My mage scripts always open with it--if you are under 5th level and not undead then you will take a nap.

the_spyder

Abi_Dalzim said:

the_spyder said:

I guess my question to the OP would be, what is a low level wizard supposed to do without Sleep?

Shamelessly abuse Blindness and its ten turn duration to whittle an enemy down with sling stones. If there's more than one, then run away.

But then someone would end up saying "Blindness is Overpowered". LOL....

subtledoctor said:

Actually coding in automatic crits against sleeping foes would be nice though. Also maybe Slow for one round when waking up, something like that.

This I could almost buy. But here's the other side of things. Is this really that more powerful than no waking up on damage? I mean it only effects up to 4 hit dice. Any decent crit is going to do a decent chunk of that right off the top, so it really nets out to the same thing more or less, right?

Meanbunny

AstroBryGuy said:

Meanbunny said:

Not all spell are created equally. Some are going to be more powerful than others. Sleep, I believe is a marquee spell for mages especially if you are playing solo. Mages just do not have the advantages that melee type classes have early on in the game. I believe it does not work on boss monsters ( I could be wrong ) paired with the fact that your other level 1 spells get stronger as the game goes on and by BG2 I think it balances out fairly well so that Sleep is not a MUST memorize spell.

It is definitely a very powerful spell though, that I do not deny.

Sleep is the bomb in BG1 and useless in BG2. It only affects creatures of 4 HD or less, so most "boss" monsters are unaffected because they have too many HD (also why it's useless in BG2).

I am guessing you were in a way agreeing with what I said, but just adding on the part about why boss monsters are unaffected? Also, I was not down playing its usefulness in BG1, I was just trying to argue against the fact that people think it is a broken spell.

I did not realize that it only effected 4 HD or less creatures. That definitely proves it is not overpowered. In fact, that just adds to my assessment that Sleep is a very balanced, yet useful spell in BG1.

UnknownQuantity

It worked for Raistlin.

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the_spyder

@subtledoctor - again, looking at the other side of things. That "18 seconds of stabbing" isn't really that. The Round in D&D is supposed to represent combat "Dance" if you will. It is two opponents attacking/defending and Dancing around each other looking for that hole in the other's defense. If one of them is unconscious, the other could get a LOT of stabs in just a few seconds. The 'just waking up' person would still need to get their bearings before they had any chance what so ever even to react. Just take a look at the opening scene of Basic Instinct.

As far as power is concerned, yes it is an extremely effective spell "at low levels" but not otherwise. However having played mostly wizards in my D&D career, I know that you spend the vast majority of the combats at low levels hiding behind something and hoping that no one takes notice of you. You also pray that you can actually hit something other than your own team mates with one of your sling stones. Giving them a bit of power that can be used once or twice a day is by no means a bad thing.

Is it more powerful than a standard warrior attack? Yes. But a warrior can hit things all day and all night. Is it more powerful than a thief's back stab? Probably, but again under the correct circumstances a thief can clean out an entire tower or castle or dungeon with back stabs whereas the Wizard gets a select few 'Casts' per day.

AstroBryGuy

Meanbunny said:

AstroBryGuy said:

Meanbunny said:

Not all spell are created equally. Some are going to be more powerful than others. Sleep, I believe is a marquee spell for mages especially if you are playing solo. Mages just do not have the advantages that melee type classes have early on in the game. I believe it does not work on boss monsters ( I could be wrong ) paired with the fact that your other level 1 spells get stronger as the game goes on and by BG2 I think it balances out fairly well so that Sleep is not a MUST memorize spell.

It is definitely a very powerful spell though, that I do not deny.

Sleep is the bomb in BG1 and useless in BG2. It only affects creatures of 4 HD or less, so most "boss" monsters are unaffected because they have too many HD (also why it's useless in BG2).

I am guessing you were in a way agreeing with what I said, but just adding on the part about why boss monsters are unaffected? Also, I was not down playing its usefulness in BG1, I was just trying to argue against the fact that people think it is a broken spell.

I did not realize that it only effected 4 HD or less creatures. That definitely proves it is not overpowered. In fact, that just adds to my assessment that Sleep is a very balanced, yet useful spell in BG1.

Basically, yes.

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Eadwyn_G8keeper

I think Sleep should be for target creature only with no save ~ with others within 10ft radius also affected but with a +2 bonus to Saves. Another spell then could be added, Daze would be a good name, which might affect multiple low level creatures so that for 5 rounds they must save vs spell or take no action.

But I also think HP leveling should be: Sorceror-4, Mage-5, Thief-7, Cleric-8, Bard-9, Fighter-10

the_spyder

Why so bards so much higher than thieves and mages?

Eadwyn_G8keeper

No idea. Just would like to see them be a bit more attractive. Could also see Cleric-7, Thief 8.

Somewhere along the line I got the idea that theoretically, I'm talking D&D lore here, arcane abilities draw characters who have developed them into a slightly shifted dimensional energy which makes them less able to weave the Earth energies of Physical Health HP that they might otherwise manifest.

But I am certainly no maven....

the_spyder

@Eadwyn_G8Keeper - I am not a 'Bard' type of guy and I know that there are some really powerful 'Bard combat' builds, particularly in 3E. I just have always thought of bards as not really HEARTY Warrior types in heavy armor. Granted, there might be some that are, like your Barbarian/bard types, but by and large I see Bards as kind of the Volo types that hang in the background singing rousing songs for the troops and whipping out the odd spell or two in support. So hardier than a wizard, but not a front liner type. I freely admit that might be a stereotype on my part.

As for thieves having more hit points than clerics, that I don't see at all. The Clerics in D&D are supposed to be Battle Clerics. They are the type who wear full platemail and carry REALLY BIG Maces. It is their martial training that makes them Hardy and HEARTY and should be stouter than a thief who spends most of his time in the shadows trying NOT to get hit.

These are all entirely my own perception of the classes and in no way "necessarily" a definition of the class. Merely this is how "I" see the classes.