How Dual Wielding Broke the Game
Dazzu
Member Posts: 950
I am not exaggerating. The weapon options in IWD make Cespinar's work look stupid, and these things don't ask for your gold most of the time.
Let's start with a few obvious breakages.
There are 5 melee weapons that confer an extra APR!.
They are Morning Star of Action +4, the Longsword of Action +4, the Bastard Sword of Action +4, Fast Flail +2 and the Valiant Scimitar +2.
The Bastard Sword has suddenly gone from being garbage due to being in a loot table with everything else being +2 or +3 and a boss requiring +2 just around the corner. Now it's probably the best in there. Sure the [Short] Sword of Days having 25% slow sounds really sexy being +3 and all, but I'd rather have a 100% chance to boost the APR of my weapon main hand than 25% slow on it.
And there's plenty at that point you'd enjoy giving an extra attack to.
Not only that! In the treasure room before that, you can find the Fast Flail +2 for yet another APR. Realize that this is around the point XPwise that Charname has just started to explore Athkatla and you can already outfit yourself in enviable ways.
The Morningstar is the best weapon in the game, and that's because it can inflict stun. In fact, there are lots of weapons that can. Stun in vanilla IWD is so good. Less things have Free action than you'd think. Bosses are easy enough to kill with some stun.
If you think you'll have more than enough APR as is on your bludgeoneer, you could try a Shocking Flail +4, which grants +1 Armor, 50% chance for +2D3 electrical damage, and a 20% chance target is Stunned.
By compare the MSoA only has 15% stun and no other effects.
The Longsword is good too, a bit more defensive with +1 AC and 15% slash res.
If you want defensive offhanders though... you've plenty of options.
The best is probably the Bastard Sword +3 Defender, which provides 10% damage resistance, 2AC, and +2 saving throws. Yea, it's the best offhander for a Barbarian or Dwarven Defender.
War Hammer +4 Defender isn't shabby with 15% resist to crush, slash and blunt, with magic in place of missile and the same 2 AC. Sadly, the only saving throw provided is vs Spells, admittedly the most important, but vs. death could be very good as well, and the Sword doesn't share as valuable a loot table as the War hammer.
Then again use both and ask enemies why they even thought they could hurt you at all!
But that's the obvious stuff, lets talk priests and mages... you heard me. There are mage weapons and sanctified blunt weapons.
The Morningstar of the gods is the best one.
It's a +3 weapon with:
Armor Class Bonus: 1
Wisdom: +1 bonus
Memorize 2 additional 1st level Priest spells
Memorize 1 additional 2nd level Priest spell
Other weapons are sanctified versions which only add low level spell levels. You could make this work if you love low level spell spamming... you shouldn't.
For mages, however, there's decent options with mage daggers. The Mage Daggers are a series of +1-4 weapons with decent bonuses and extra mage spells. If dual wielded, you can get a lot of extra magic missiles, especially if you follow with Kontik's wizardry ring.
Ranged Weapons are good too, but in IWD, you can only reach mastery with missile weapons. This made the throwing Ax +2 incredible because of its ability to be grandmastered. Archers can still rule though as long as you stay away from shortbows. Seriously, Crossbows are better for your thief/mage.
There's a +2 Crossbow of Speed, and a +3 Repeating Light Crossbow with a base 3 APR. There's also a heavy version in the same loot table.
In that same loot table is the Hammer Longbow +4 with 4 APR. FOUR! As in, you put that on someone who ISN'T a master archer. Put that on your bard.
Being fair, it is the only +4 Longbow. The +3 Repeater is a longbow version of Tuigan, which should be good on a grandmaster if grandmastery is possible.
A shame about the lacked variety of ammo.
When I've more time I'll get into more stuff, such as weapons you should avoid pointing up.
Let's start with a few obvious breakages.
There are 5 melee weapons that confer an extra APR!.
They are Morning Star of Action +4, the Longsword of Action +4, the Bastard Sword of Action +4, Fast Flail +2 and the Valiant Scimitar +2.
The Bastard Sword has suddenly gone from being garbage due to being in a loot table with everything else being +2 or +3 and a boss requiring +2 just around the corner. Now it's probably the best in there. Sure the [Short] Sword of Days having 25% slow sounds really sexy being +3 and all, but I'd rather have a 100% chance to boost the APR of my weapon main hand than 25% slow on it.
And there's plenty at that point you'd enjoy giving an extra attack to.
Not only that! In the treasure room before that, you can find the Fast Flail +2 for yet another APR. Realize that this is around the point XPwise that Charname has just started to explore Athkatla and you can already outfit yourself in enviable ways.
The Morningstar is the best weapon in the game, and that's because it can inflict stun. In fact, there are lots of weapons that can. Stun in vanilla IWD is so good. Less things have Free action than you'd think. Bosses are easy enough to kill with some stun.
If you think you'll have more than enough APR as is on your bludgeoneer, you could try a Shocking Flail +4, which grants +1 Armor, 50% chance for +2D3 electrical damage, and a 20% chance target is Stunned.
By compare the MSoA only has 15% stun and no other effects.
The Longsword is good too, a bit more defensive with +1 AC and 15% slash res.
If you want defensive offhanders though... you've plenty of options.
The best is probably the Bastard Sword +3 Defender, which provides 10% damage resistance, 2AC, and +2 saving throws. Yea, it's the best offhander for a Barbarian or Dwarven Defender.
War Hammer +4 Defender isn't shabby with 15% resist to crush, slash and blunt, with magic in place of missile and the same 2 AC. Sadly, the only saving throw provided is vs Spells, admittedly the most important, but vs. death could be very good as well, and the Sword doesn't share as valuable a loot table as the War hammer.
Then again use both and ask enemies why they even thought they could hurt you at all!
But that's the obvious stuff, lets talk priests and mages... you heard me. There are mage weapons and sanctified blunt weapons.
The Morningstar of the gods is the best one.
It's a +3 weapon with:
Armor Class Bonus: 1
Wisdom: +1 bonus
Memorize 2 additional 1st level Priest spells
Memorize 1 additional 2nd level Priest spell
Other weapons are sanctified versions which only add low level spell levels. You could make this work if you love low level spell spamming... you shouldn't.
For mages, however, there's decent options with mage daggers. The Mage Daggers are a series of +1-4 weapons with decent bonuses and extra mage spells. If dual wielded, you can get a lot of extra magic missiles, especially if you follow with Kontik's wizardry ring.
Ranged Weapons are good too, but in IWD, you can only reach mastery with missile weapons. This made the throwing Ax +2 incredible because of its ability to be grandmastered. Archers can still rule though as long as you stay away from shortbows. Seriously, Crossbows are better for your thief/mage.
There's a +2 Crossbow of Speed, and a +3 Repeating Light Crossbow with a base 3 APR. There's also a heavy version in the same loot table.
In that same loot table is the Hammer Longbow +4 with 4 APR. FOUR! As in, you put that on someone who ISN'T a master archer. Put that on your bard.
Being fair, it is the only +4 Longbow. The +3 Repeater is a longbow version of Tuigan, which should be good on a grandmaster if grandmastery is possible.
A shame about the lacked variety of ammo.
When I've more time I'll get into more stuff, such as weapons you should avoid pointing up.
7
Comments
Also, BG2 and IWD are two different things, if weapons from IWD are OP, they are still form IWD and not from BG, BG was designed to be BG and IWD was designed to BATMAN, I mean… IWD.
IWD is a much more action/power-driven game, so it requires greater spells and weapons.
The BGs (especially the first one) have much more emphasis on RPing and character development, so there is less of a need for such "OP'd" weaponry.
As was said, IWD is not ToB: the fights in IWD can be really rough at times, so you kinda need the awesome gear.
I'm sooooo excited for IWD:EE !
Didn't you already get that with Stoneskin? (which you can pick up before Dorn's Deep)
The warhammer +4 gives 15% slashing, crushing and piercing resistance, but nothing for missile.
So in theory with +20% innate bonus, 50% from dwarf defender ability, and 10% from the bastard sword you would be 80% resistant against piercing/slashing/missile/crushing. With the warhammer you would be also 95% resistant against slashing, crushing and piercing. Really though its going to be a lot less than that for the majority of the game since you won't immediately have these items, that much of a bonus for your innate ability, or that many uses of your defender ability.
Honestly Stoneskin (which was in the original game) and Iron Skin are just going to be easier and leave you free to use other weapons.
Also also (heh), you already could end up nearly indestructible. You could use a shield and one of the better defensive weapons, and the kickass girdle from the Hand (assuming the enemy drops it) to be pretty slashing protected.
Compared to PfMW, this isnt a big deal.
Shields in this game are kinda meh. The Argent Shield is pretty good when you need some extra MR, but against mages, saving throws might be better... then again I found physical attackers to be more common in this game.
Some of kits from BG:EE will not work well in IWN.
( I can think of more cases than Dwarven Defender. )
They will have to nerf kits or weapons.
Current kits absolutely destroys the balance of the game.
Adding all of the BG2 magic is also going to require reworking.
I think making IWD identical to BGEE might not be the ideal route; IWD is supposed to bemits own game, but I suspect most of BGEE would be fine. Interesting to see the solution chosen anyways.
Also, it's a game where you are supposed to build your own party from scratch. It was basically an invitation to break it.
Having gear with unique abilities that combine well with class abilities are part of the fun of a good RPG's mechanics, and part of why, mechanically, the Icewind Dale franchise is superior to BG.
I still think it might be nice if some kits are reworked a bit to stress the differentness. IWD had differences, would be appropriate to keep this.
Or maybe it's harder than BG2, because we all know how much timestop enemies in IWD used, as well as the numbers of dragons and liches fought... or maybe the fact that IWD's first major boss can be webbed while you use the +2 Throwing Axe you JUST got. If that fails, you have a stun weapon or two to keep her from acting... is my memory off? Nevermind all the level draining you have to remember to immunize against, all zero of it, and the times you need to get rid of spell protections... multiple times in a row.
Are you guys sure IWD is harder?
Btw? I have soloed Sarevok and friends with one sorcerer by using web a few times. Utterly shutting down the 'grand climax' with a level 2 spell?! Yyyeeeaaahhh, I wouldnt try that wih Belhefit and friends. Heck, Polquin would win that fight.
This also ignores HoF, dear heavens NO MORE DROWNED DEAD PLEASE! I'll be good!
I do suspect some of us are coloured by the Vanilla of IWD, which could be truly ugly if you randomed bad gear and didnt cheeseball.
Of course, maybe my vanilla BG1 experience is skewed since I died to Tarnesh more often than I died to a cave of orcs. Also don't remember using Sorcs in vanilla bg1 either.
With all his buffs and the items equipped he's got almost 25 str/dex/con.
No challenge...
Both games are challenging in their own way, and both can be cheesed *cough* traps.
Running into the bitch at the greater forge in lower dorns deep, without being prepared... Was going OK, I was killing... Wait, my bard and thief are dead!?
HOLY SHIT, is that 7 fire Giants!?... /reload
Wasn't pretty
Icewind Dale is definitely harder. Heart of Fury mode is like impossible. Some of the things you mentioned in BG2, like liches, also have a lot of cheesey things you can use in the game that most people simpley *choose* not to use. I mean, liches are a joke when you cast Protection from Undead, then wail away at them with the Mace of Disruption, Daystar and Azuredge.
Do those weapons unbalance the game?
I agree that there are certainly some things that can be considered "overpowered", but at the same time you have the choice as the player to simply not use them.
I think some spells might also be overpowered in this game (Timestop?), but then again they will probably beef the enemies as well. Plus I will probably play it on a more difficult setting if it is too easy. Overall, I'm not too worried about that.
Cheese existed in both games, but I found by ToB you had to work to avoid cheese. I largely agree with Boo as well, but hope IWD can have some uniqueness vs BG.
I try to avoid arcane casters as much as possible
Now where'd I put my mountain dew...
Kenny the Kensage: You Wouldn't Like Me When I Tenser...
Have your Cleric cast summons, have your Mage cast summons, have your Druid cast summons, even have your freaking Bard cast summons.
They get the stats of the enemy monsters and make things much easier.