Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

How Dual Wielding Broke the Game

2»

Comments

  • SpungiSpungi Member Posts: 216
    Elrandir said:

    Oh you know, that strangely yellow colored beverage that the english peasants drink. While they eat their orange sticks.

    That doesn't sound like something that can be good for you?
    Silly English men

    jackjackElrandir
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Dazzu said:

    How is IWD harder than BG? In BG, you risk dying, at the start, to a wolf or a mage who, if he gets one cast of magic missile off, will almost certainly kill a mage outright and can possibly kill a helpless player or two. Also the low level limit disallows legal grandmastery.

    Or maybe it's harder than BG2, because we all know how much timestop enemies in IWD used, as well as the numbers of dragons and liches fought... or maybe the fact that IWD's first major boss can be webbed while you use the +2 Throwing Axe you JUST got. If that fails, you have a stun weapon or two to keep her from acting... is my memory off? Nevermind all the level draining you have to remember to immunize against, all zero of it, and the times you need to get rid of spell protections... multiple times in a row.

    Are you guys sure IWD is harder?

    The first two sets of enemy creatures in IWD, a swarm of bugs and a wolf. The first swarms you, and can kill you just as easily as a lucky clan of gibberlings. The wolf is right next to you as soon as you spawn in the house he's invaded, and unlike the beetles he has a decent enough to-hit to smack you with his d8+X jaws twice before you bring him down. If you're an exploring, completionist type, IWD puts you against an ogre very early, and unlike the belt quest in BG this guy is not that out-of-the-way. In that same map you have a close-quarters battle in a house with a big swarm of orcs. Let's not also forget the tomb full of high-level undead like wights and mummies, or the dungeon full of giants and wizards that you have to contend with not long after, both of which are main quest and cannot be avoided. The undead in Kresselack's Tomb are doing much worse than draining levels, but inflicting paralysis and disease. Tarnesh's magic missile isn't even maxed out, while the wizards in the giant dungeon, and the wizard wight at the end of Kresselack's tomb, have the five missiles per casting that will tear right through your level 3-4 HP. IWD may not have the first-run kill record of Tarnesh, but it's got to be pretty damn close, and my guess is that it's higher.

    Web is really effective in all Infinity Engine titles. That's not exclusive to IWD, it's just that the IWD franchise almost necessitates its use with high-volume battles, especially in IWD2 where you basically fight entire companies of orcs and goblins at a time. The sheer volume of enemies per fight makes the stun weapons less valuable, because while you're perma-stunning one orc, you're getting wailed on by the other eight orcs. Thank the gods for IWD2 having the Power Attack and Cleave feats and Snilloc's Snowball Storm for some early AoE damage, otherwise the first fight you have against orcs - getting ambushed at the start of the, what, THIRD map of the game by about a dozen orcs? - would be a nightmare.

    booinyoureyesDragonspear
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 924
    edited September 2014
    The beetles barely, BARELY attack. Even on my very first playthrough as a newbie, I struggled not, and was rewarded with much more XP than Baldur's Gate 1 ever gave. As for the wolf? A few archers made him a skewered mess before he reached my frontline warrior. That or I used sleep. Speaking of which, sleep makes everything easy up to this point.

    On the other hand, Baldur's Gate has things like 8 bandits waylaying you. Remember that dick move in IWD? I sure don't!

    Nevermind the fact that in Chapter 1, you're entering at lvl 2, compared to BG1, you might not even reach 2 by the time you reach Nashkel. It's a big jump, doubling your health and all.


    Anyway... back on topic, let's get to weapons you should probably skip: Clubs, Spears and Shortbows. Thief/Mages are on the meh side because they lack a good ranged weapon unless you're dual classing. Otherwise, you're going the whole game with a +1 Shortbow. I'm not kidding, you get your next upgrade with HoW only.

    The_New_Romance
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 924
    I think we've gone off topic here. This isn't a BG vs IWD thread, this is how the EE changes are gonna trivialize so much while other aspects get shafted. If anyone minds returning to topic, please?

    The_New_Romance
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Dazzu said:

    I think we've gone off topic here. This isn't a BG vs IWD thread, this is how the EE changes are gonna trivialize so much while other aspects get shafted. If anyone minds returning to topic, please?

    And our argument here is that BGEE's changes aren't going to trivialize encounters that are just out-and-out really hard. That's DIRECTLY on topic.

    Also, which aspects, precisely, are going to "get shafted"?

    booinyoureyesjackjack
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    The OP mentions 5 action weapons but this website mentions a bastard sword of action +1 as well: http://www.gry-online.pl/S024.asp?ID=14&PART=58

    I use Mikes RPG center for BG1 but it seems incomplete for IWD.

    JuliusBorisov
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    edited September 2014

    Honestly, I have lost more characters to those two stupid goblin archers in Easthaven and the three wolves in that first area outside of Easthaven than I have against Tarnesh.

    Maybe it's because you can prepare well (or even cheese) against Tarnesh, but have to take on the goblins quite fairly. Thing is, Tarnesh would oftentimes target Charname and kill him outright. The goblin archers might hurt or even kill anyone, that doesn't mean it's game over. Most people would reload, of course, but voluntarily. Tarnesh forces you to.

    Overall, I'd say BG is more swingy in the beginning, but IWD is harder. You have to powergame more to make it. Still, I don't think the introduction of BG2 stuff and the cheese that goes along with it will really do IWD good.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    Honestly, I have lost more characters to those two stupid goblin archers in Easthaven and the three wolves in that first area outside of Easthaven than I have against Tarnesh.

    Maybe it's because you can prepare well (or even cheese) against Tarnesh, but have to take on the goblins quite fairly. Thing is, Tarnesh would oftentimes target Charname and kill him outright. The goblin archers might hurt or even kill anyone, that doesn't mean it's game over. Most people would reload, of course, but voluntarily. Tarnesh forces you to.

    Overall, I'd say BG is more swingy in the beginning, but IWD is harder. You have to powergame more to make it. Still, I don't think the introduction of BG2 stuff and the cheese that goes along with it will really do IWD good.
    The cheese doesn't do BG2 any good, either. That's why you just don't do it if you don't want to deal with it, and roll your eyes at everybody who cheeses their way through a solo run with their Kensai/Mage that makes a hasted Simulacrum run as far from the battle as possible.

    jackjackCrevsDaak
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,099
    edited September 2014
    "If you do not like it, dont do/use/play it."

    No offense, but this is the most pathetic way to try to defend a poorly balanced game.


    Something like that can be use when it comes to options, such as "hide helm", mods or cheats, but otherwise it is completely inexcusable.

    Items will not be so bad. IWD have much larger groups of strong enemies than BG, so it is logical that we will need some sort of advantage. Probably we can allow most of the kits from BG2:EE (with narrowed eyes), but certainly not Dwarven Defender with his crazy tanking capabilities (he should not even be in BG).

    Another problem will be magic.
    BG2 have MUCH more strong spells then IWD and I'm talking mainly about the incredibly strong AOE spells.
    Even if you limit scrolls, sorcerer will still be able to use them all.

    IWD:EE will need much more than a simple transfer of content from BG.

    Post edited by Edvin on
    The_New_RomanceDreadKhan
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,956
    edited September 2014
    Meh unless you plan on doing a lot of saving and then rest/reload/rest (until successful) your access to spells is going to be limited by the frequency that you are ambushed by enemies when you attempt to rest in IWD (which in most areas happens a lot). That is on top of either your specific choices as a sorcerer/your access to mage scrolls.

    Same goes with any ability you have a limited number of activations for.

    JuliusBorisovjackjack
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    I could be crazy (ha), but it seemed like back in the day I always pulled terrible random swag when I 'restreated' to save my hide.

    But anyways, even limit per day, IWD will benefit from critical beta testing.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Edvin said:

    "If you do not like it, dont do/use/play it."

    No offense, but this is the most pathetic way to try to defend a poorly balanced game.


    Something like that can be use when it comes to options, such as "hide helm", mods or cheats, but otherwise it is completely inexcusable.

    Items will not be so bad. IWD have much larger groups of strong enemies than BG, so it is logical that we will need some sort of advantage. Probably we can allow most of the kits from BG2:EE (with narrowed eyes), but certainly not Dwarven Defender with his crazy tanking capabilities (he should not even be in BG).

    Another problem will be magic.
    BG2 have MUCH more strong spells then IWD and I'm talking mainly about the incredibly strong AOE spells.
    Even if you limit scrolls, sorcerer will still be able to use them all.

    IWD:EE will need much more than a simple transfer of content from BG.

    It's too late. The game is already theoretically broken. Hence, if you don't like it, don't use it. If we're going to tweak and balance things, how about Dual-Classing and Multi-Classing producing do-it-all-solo god characters? Because they really aren't, I simply won't use them. I don't want them to adjust or remove the Dwarven Defender, because Dwarven Defender doesn't even compare with Mage, Dual-Class, and Muti-Class cheese.

    elminsterjackjack
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,099
    edited September 2014
    @Schneidend
    Dual-Class, and Muti-Class mages are strong only on high levels.
    In IWD where you start on lvl 1, are these do-it-all-solo god characters rather a nuisance.

    The_New_Romance
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Edvin said:

    @Schneidend
    Dual-Class, and Muti-Class mages are strong only on high levels.
    In IWD where you start on lvl 1, are these do-it-all-solo god characters rather a nuisance.

    The Dwarven Defender and most of the other kits don't come into their own until higher levels, either. I'd say the only classes that are extraordinarily strong from level 1 are Skald and Jester, who get their best ability right away.

    jackjack
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Barbarians are really powerful at level 1, so are berserkers. Clerics are crazy at lvl 1 if played aggressively, and so on. They grow relatively less powerful as they progress though, and we can all accept core DnD concepts like duals and multis, just like we accept the quadratic BG wizard... however, new badly unbalanced stuff will stick out badly.

    The_New_Romance
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,725
    There are several shields which will cause some people *not* to dual-wield. The Argent Shield (yes, elf/half-elf only but 25% MR is a hefty bonus)...Great Shield +3 (15% resist physical attacks)...Sundered Shield of Tiernon...Shield of the Revenant...The Red Knight's Shield...Mystery of the Dead...and those are only the ones I can recall with relative ease.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    DreadKhan said:

    Barbarians are really powerful at level 1, so are berserkers. Clerics are crazy at lvl 1 if played aggressively, and so on. They grow relatively less powerful as they progress though, and we can all accept core DnD concepts like duals and multis, just like we accept the quadratic BG wizard... however, new badly unbalanced stuff will stick out badly.

    I don't consider characters that have a powerful 1/day ability at first level as being necessarily strong at first level. Random encounters caused by resting happen a lot in the IWD franchise, so resting cheese isn't as abusable as in BG. Once they get multiple uses, then yes they blossom into something really potent.

    And, no, I don't accept those concepts. That's why I don't use them often. I hate quadratic wizard design. I tolerate it, because they have plenty of cool spells that don't break the game and having the wizard sprites in a party add variety. Fighter/Thief and Fighter/Cleric are good multi-class combos that I am comfortable with, but all this nonsense with things like Swashbuckler/Mage, Berserker/Mage, and Kensai/Mage annoy the crap out of me. So, I simply don't use them.

    I don't consider the new stuff Overhaul has added unbalanced, and I don't want it changed because some people do. The game will be fine, because IWD is already tactically challenging, while the kits on their own don't exactly bring anything earth-shattering to the table that the Mage and Ranger/Cleric and the abuse of certain spell interactions can't already surpass in overpoweredness. If it strikes you as overpowered, then don't use it.

    elminsterKerthal
  • DecoyCodeDecoyCode Member Posts: 5
    You could already break the game by using a druid with certain resistance items. Additionally, extra attack items don't stack. There's a ring that gives an extra attack and it doesn't stack with the melee weapons that give the same effect.

    Honestly, I'm worried about what the EE version does to druid shape-shifting and spells in general. For those not in the know, druids are incredibly strong in IWD. With items like the Bone-Marrow Belt and Leather of Resistance, and even more options if you went fighter/druid, there wasn't a lot you couldn't be immune to, even to the point where you healed from that damage, and as a result trivialized several hard fights. In addition, some of their spells were incredible, primarily a lot of their ground effects and summons.

    But people are right to fear certain kits just breaking the game. Zerkers/barbs will likely be the only class you need as, for the most part, AC doesn't matter as much as resistances. The control immunities gained from these classes means they'll walk up and out-slug just about every enemy in the game point for point, especially with dual wielding. The only threatening enemies from a physical damage without the threat of CC are constructs, a small cadre of undead, and maybe some of the bosses, all of which can be beaten with stacked immunities.

    Also, bows are ridiculously strong in IWD, more so than BG in my opinion. The amount of enemies vulnerable to unenchanted arrows is hilarious. The same list of Constructs, certain undead, and some bosses. Bosses that you wouldn't expect.

    As a last quick note, spears have one redeeming factor in that they're the first +5 weapon you get in the game save for, potentially, a certain sword only usable by specific people. Not so significant in the main campaign, but a godsend in Trials of the Luremaster.

    Elrandir
Sign In or Register to comment.