Most Important IWDEE Issue: can AI mages use BG2 spells effectively?

Ygramul

Seriously, this is a buy-or-no-buy issue for me:

We know by now that SCS-like AI is not in IWDEE (and SCS for IWD may be "years away").
So, given that BG2 spells are in IWD, either:
- mages can use contingencies, triggers etc. effectively -- and therefore are not a pushover anymore that can be brought down by slings and stones
OR
- mages can't do any of this, while I can -- and therefore a solo sorceror can faceroll the game.


IWD was *tolerable* after playing BG2, because all mages were a bit gimped, instead of being the gravest threats. If I can use BG2 spells but they can't the game is dead-on-arrival as far as challenge level.

(Alternatively, DON'T import BG2 spells into IWDEE, because they just break the game without AI to match.)

So, which one is it?

Tolben

Hhm, I do agree that contingencies might be really iffy in IWD, especially if Protection from Magic Weapons is added to IWD. However, if Breach and similar spells are added then the problem can be most solved.

I do agree with the decision to add BG2 spells into IWD, and I would love it if HLA's were somehow implemented while keeping some semblance of balance, but I think we need some sort of official statement on how the spell transfer is going to play out.

Ygramul

Tolben said:

Hhm, I do agree that contingencies might be really iffy in IWD, especially if Protection from Magic Weapons is added to IWD. However, if Breach and similar spells are added then the problem can be most solved.

... *IF** AI mages could know to cast Breach -- which is my whole point.
(And any encounter *without* mages on the AI side will remain a cake-walk: seriously, what will those barbarian hordes do to you when you have Contingencied or Spell Triggered Stoneskin/PfMW/Fireshield?!)


In BG2, beyond level 10+ mages are the ultimate power! This wasn't the case in IWD, which admittedly was actually a bit refreshing.

Now, since BG2 spells are in it, either, IWD has a totally different balance from before, or it is totally broken.

Fandraxx

I hope AI mages can use bg2 spells effectually; i think it would add a nice challenge and give us a reason to use something other than magic missile.

Ygramul

Could a dev comment on this please?

@Dee‌ ?

Noon

I would be surprised if they change the enemy mages spellbooks (and the associated combat scripts).

Schneidend

Personally, I'm hoping most of those BG2 spells don't even make it into IWDEE. Most of BG2's new spells were just overpowered protection spells, and the counters to those overpowered protection spells. It all winds up being an artificially-inflated list of "new" spells and wasted spell slots that could be used on something more fun. Protection From Missiles is where the "haha, your weapon is useless!" shenanigans should have stopped post-BG1.

Dee

All enemy mages start combat by casting Find Familiar. Of course, since only the player can have a familiar, the spell always fails.

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

Ygramul

I fear, this was not like your characteristically informative answers, Dee. Essentially, it did not address the matter at all.

Here is to cautious optimism for the team -- but I will wait on this title until I hear confirmation of balance on these issues after release.

Fardragon

It addresses the matter as much is possible. It tells us that at least some of the casters have been given BG2 spells. However, when it comes to how effectively they use them, your mileage may vary. When the BG2EE AI interacts with the IWD scripts, it is inevitable that the results will be hit and miss.

But these games have never been about "balance". If it's too easy play with a team of 6 wizard slayers in HoF mode. If it's too hard, turn on Story Mode.

Thunder

Dee said:

All enemy mages start combat by casting Find Familiar. Of course, since only the player can have a familiar, the spell always fails.

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

As a follow up to the Find Familiar comment:

In BG1&2 only the main character could have a familiar as far as I remember. Since there isn't a main character in IWD, but rather up to a full party of main characters, how will the Find Familiar spell work? Will all characters who know and are able to cast this spell be able to gain a familiar?

AstroBryGuy

Dee said:

All enemy mages start combat by casting Find Familiar. Of course, since only the player can have a familiar, the spell always fails.

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

WIll they be scripted to cast Detect Alignment after that? Then Friends to make sure the PCs like them? ;-)

DreadKhan

No, I think Infravision follows Find Familiar.

Ygramul

*grumpily*

Thank you all for derailing an important a balance question: seriously, no one else is concerned about the AI quality in IWDEE?!

Fardragon

Ygramul said:

*grumpily*

Thank you all for derailing an important a balance question: seriously, no one else is concerned about the AI quality in IWDEE?!

In a game with a Story Mode? No. If it was called Magical Wizarding Duel Tactics, then it might matter.

Varwulf

Thunder said:

Dee said:

All enemy mages start combat by casting Find Familiar. Of course, since only the player can have a familiar, the spell always fails.

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

As a follow up to the Find Familiar comment:

In BG1&2 only the main character could have a familiar as far as I remember. Since there isn't a main character in IWD, but rather up to a full party of main characters, how will the Find Familiar spell work? Will all characters who know and are able to cast this spell be able to gain a familiar?

I too am curious about this...

The_New_Romance

I would certainly like proper AI. Even if this is not Wizarding Duel Tactics, I prefer the enemy to be interesting rather than buggy pushovers.

molloy

Dee said:

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

That would be a quite audacious statement, if the discovery will be, that they introduced lots of powerful spells for the player only, without any thought about what this will do to game balance,

Fardragon

The_New_Romance said:

I would certainly like proper AI. Even if this is not Wizarding Duel Tactics, I prefer the enemy to be interesting rather than buggy pushovers.

There are few high level casters in IWD. Low level casters are pushovers anyway.

Ygramul

molloy said:

Dee said:

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

That would be a quite audacious statement, if the discovery will be, that they introduced lots of powerful spells for the player only, without any thought about what this will do to game balance,

Indeed.

There is a reason why I don't play IWD/IWD2 as often, even though both are solid titles:

They are both cake-walks for a well-played party. (I *only* play no-reload: so they are cake-walk as no-reload challenges, too.) For BG/BG2, I have less than even chance of making it to end-game.

(Nevermind the "Nightmare mode": that's not D&D; it's not balanced as such. I never play them.)


I wish they had spent resources for challenge & balance instead of making a "Story Mode".

*sigh*

The_New_Romance

Fardragon said:

The_New_Romance said:

I would certainly like proper AI. Even if this is not Wizarding Duel Tactics, I prefer the enemy to be interesting rather than buggy pushovers.

There are few high level casters in IWD. Low level casters are pushovers anyway.

Yeah, sadly enough...

Son_of_Imoen

Ygramul said:

*grumpily*

Thank you all for derailing an important a balance question: seriously, no one else is concerned about the AI quality in IWDEE?!

I saw it as defeatist irony for not getting any more info from Dee If 'surprise' is all the team wants to say about it, I'll refrain from buying til the game is out and there's actual proof of experience if the game is balanced.

I for one am concerned and will not translate my euros into 20 dollars till I am sure.

Mathsorcerer

I, for one, will likely tweak the enemy AI once I have the game and I am certain that I am not alone in this regard. Within 3 to 6 months of IWDEE release there will be plenty of mods to improve enemy spellcaster AI.

BuddyRich

The rock-paper-scissor nature of BG2 magic and mages was a pita more than anything. Most of the intermediate debuff spells were actually invented for BG2, they are not from P&P 2E AD&D, at least no source I could find. I think they added them in so there was a way to lower the legitimate numerous protection spells that were in P&P and BG2 (and monster innate abilities), aside from dispel magic and disruption.

Although I liked the added mechanic, especially for wizard duels, after the 5th time I encountered a wizard in BG2 and same the same basic spell sequencer it made every wizard battle feel the same.

But thats because there are a lot more solitary mages (or mage like creatures, aka Kangaxx) encountered in Bg2. In IWD the mages that are there generally have a horde of meat shields to rely on...

Mathsorcerer

Exactly. Any mage who has a modicum of intelligence is going to keep a Dimension Door, Teleport, or Teleport Without Error memorized (or on a scroll or stored in a device) so that if some troublemaking do-gooders show up they can make an immediate exit. Except for insanity, why would a solitary mage try to face down a well-armed and well-armored group of reasonably powerful adventurers?

moody_mage

@Ygramul said:

*grumpily*

Thank you all for derailing an important a balance question: seriously, no one else is concerned about the AI quality in IWDEE?!

I'm happy to wait and see. As per @Dee's post;

Dee said:

In all seriousness, we want to leave some things up for discovery once you actually get into the game and play. I think people will be pleased with what they see, though.

Fardragon

The_New_Romance said:

Fardragon said:

The_New_Romance said:

I would certainly like proper AI. Even if this is not Wizarding Duel Tactics, I prefer the enemy to be interesting rather than buggy pushovers.

There are few high level casters in IWD. Low level casters are pushovers anyway.

Yeah, sadly enough...

Wouldn't make sense. You don't get many high level wizards per square mile in an arctic wilderness.

Zeckul

Oh God please no, leave the insufferable mage defense/counter silliness to BG2. Anyway, any AI change that would significantly alter gameplay on normal difficulty would be bad in my book, although I would welcome harder AI on higher difficulty settings.

Belanos

Mathsorcerer said:

I, for one, will likely tweak the enemy AI once I have the game and I am certain that I am not alone in this regard. Within 3 to 6 months of IWDEE release there will be plenty of mods to improve enemy spellcaster AI.

And it won't be that hard to do either, if it's going to be using the BG2EE engine. All AI scripts now in use will be easy to adapt, it will just be a question of adding in the IWD spells. Which Beamdog has probably already done. So I suspect that people are worrying about nothing.

Fardragon

Belanos said:

Mathsorcerer said:

I, for one, will likely tweak the enemy AI once I have the game and I am certain that I am not alone in this regard. Within 3 to 6 months of IWDEE release there will be plenty of mods to improve enemy spellcaster AI.

And it won't be that hard to do either, if it's going to be using the BG2EE engine. All AI scripts now in use will be easy to adapt, it will just be a question of adding in the IWD spells. Which Beamdog has probably already done. So I suspect that people are worrying about nothing.

On the contrary, whatever Beamdog do, there will always be people that complain that the AI isn't good enough, and others that complain that the it is now too difficult.

Belanos

Fardragon said:

On the contrary, whatever Beamdog do, there will always be people that complain that the AI isn't good enough, and others that complain that the it is now too difficult.

What do you mean about whatever Beamdog does? Some people are never happy period, they'll always find something to complain about.