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Most Important IWDEE Issue: can AI mages use BG2 spells effectively?

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Comments

  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    Nevertheless:
    Some work needs to be done.

    The classic IWD spell system works (it's not perfect but it works).
    By adding the whole world of BG2 spells this system changes significantly.
    Though balance has no top priority in these kinds of games, a general level of balance is appreciated
    and makes the gameplay more comfortable.

    In my opinion, there should only be the vanilla spells. The engine improvements and added content are good enough for me.
    More of everything isn't allways the best approach, but I can understand the people who would enjoy having a huge spell selection and the possibilities of the various interactions.

    I personally favor balance over quantity.

    @‌Dee
    your comments were a bit on the vague side.
    I'd liked it to be a bit clearer :)

    Wandering_Minstrel
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,244
    If you don't want to include certain spells in your playthrough, then don't use them.

    The inclusion of sorcerers changes the balance far more than any particular spell anyway. In the original game the availability of scrolls was a major limiting factor. Spells like Chain Contingency don't have much effect, since there is no one, player or NPC, likely to be high enough level to cast it outside HoF mode.

    NimranelminsterMoomintroll
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 3,935
    edited September 2014
    The nerve of these people, wanting their voices to be heard! Seriously though, different strokes for different folks. Not everybody wants the same thing, so naturally they complain about things they don't like, even if other people like it.

    JuliusBorisovWandering_MinstrelMoomintrollQuartz
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,521
    Personally, I really liked the variety of spells that Bg2 had. The problem was that some spells were so much better than others that the decision of which spells to use was often reduced to a calculation. Just about every enemy mage in Bg2 uses Stoneskin, even if they don't specialize in abjuration magic.

    The problem isn't that spells like Mirror Image and Stoneskin are impossible to deal with; it's that they're so good that everybody uses them. Every mage in The Black Pits 2 feels like a powergamer and it just gets tiring after a while to see every mage using the same overpowered spells when there are so many other spells to choose from. In the final battle of The Black Pits 2 alone, half of the enemy team starts by casting Protection from Magic Weapons.

    I'm hoping that the mages in IWD:EE don't just spam Mirror Image, Stoneskin, and PFMW all day long.

    jackjackZeckulQuartz
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    edited September 2014
    I can live without the dumb contingency mages from BG2. I enjoyed IWD's battles more for that reason alone.

    jackjackWandering_MinstrelQuartz
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,244
    The mages in IWD aren't high enough level to cast PFMW.

  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    @Fardragon‌
    There is a difference about things being not available at all
    and things being available but being given the advice to not use it.
    It's not the same and in my opinion a lazy answer.

    But anyway, I'm not so much concerned about the inclusion of the new spells, I quite like it actually.
    Requirement is, I just would like the developers to put at least some effort in balancing things out.
    For some this isn't important, for me it is.
    To each his own opinion this is just mine.

    So far no information but some vague answers are given and it simply would be nice to hear something in this regard, and if it is only a 'We don't know yet, things might change until release'.

    Aside from this possible balance issue I'm looking forward to IWD:EE.

    Quartz
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,244
    hansolo said:

    @Fardragon‌
    There is a difference about things being not available at all
    and things being available but being given the advice to not use it.
    It's not the same and in my opinion a lazy answer.

    But anyway, I'm not so much concerned about the inclusion of the new spells, I quite like it actually.
    Requirement is, I just would like the developers to put at least some effort in balancing things out.
    For some this isn't important, for me it is.
    To each his own opinion this is just mine.

    So far no information but some vague answers are given and it simply would be nice to hear something in this regard, and if it is only a 'We don't know yet, things might change until release'.

    Aside from this possible balance issue I'm looking forward to IWD:EE.

    What are you going to do about sorcerers then? Removing the scroll dependency makes them much much much more powerful than any arcane casters from the original IWD. The way I see it, you can either choose not to use them, or be faced by a much easier game. No tweaking the spell AI would change that.

    jackjackelminster
  • CasadoomCasadoom Member Posts: 68
    Fardragon said:

    What are you going to do about sorcerers then? Removing the scroll dependency makes them much much much more powerful than any arcane casters from the original IWD. The way I see it, you can either choose not to use them, or be faced by a much easier game. No tweaking the spell AI would change that.

    Sorcerers being the most powerful arcane caster is not particularly solvable without making sweeping changes to the nature of the game. Making the AI successfully use the new spells is, however, something that does not go against the core principles of the game and I believe would be undoubtedly an improvement.

    With that said, I personally would have preferred if beamdog did not include the atrocious counter/reverse-counter spells that plagued Baldur's Gate (like in the superior combat wise IWD2) but this does not seem to be the case. If these BG2-unique spells are usable by the players, I would expect that the AI would be enhanced to be able to use and exploit these new spells.

    Regardless, I have little doubt that Beamdog would include new spells/classes/kits and/or HLA without making major changes to the games balance.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,244
    edited September 2014
    Casadoom said:

    Fardragon said:

    What are you going to do about sorcerers then? Removing the scroll dependency makes them much much much more powerful than any arcane casters from the original IWD. The way I see it, you can either choose not to use them, or be faced by a much easier game. No tweaking the spell AI would change that.

    Sorcerers being the most powerful arcane caster is not particularly solvable without making sweeping changes to the nature of the game. Making the AI successfully use the new spells is, however, something that does not go against the core principles of the game and I believe would be undoubtedly an improvement.
    We know the AI will be able to use the new spells. But there won't be scissors/paper/stone mage duals like BG2, for the simple reason that none of the arcane casters in IWD are high enough level.

    IWD has never relied on powerful spellcasters to provide it's challenge. It doesn't make sense for the story, the location, or the level range. Giving the low and mid level casters a few new tricks isn't going to make much difference either way.
    Fardragon said:



    Regardless, I have little doubt that Beamdog would include new spells/classes/kits and/or HLA without making major changes to the games balance.

    Major changes to the game?! A convention of 20th level liches suddenly arrives in the Dale? When does it stop becoming an EE and becomes a completely different game?

    jackjackNimran
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    I read that a lot of people here dislike the whole counter / reverse counter spell system in BG2. It's pretty interesting, because for me, it's the exact thing that makes the game interesting and roleplay.

    If these spells didn't exist, why would anyone want to become a Mage ? Why would anyone want to spend dozen of years to learn arcane magic if wielding a sword was as powerful ?

    IMO the greatest strength of this game is its ruleset. I couldn't play a game with next to no strategy involved (buff then attack isn't really what I call a strategy), it would be another of these games with no soul where the way to play would look like "hurr durr hack and slash everything hurr durr"

    What has kept me so interesting in Baldur's Gate throughout all these years is that it feels like I'm actually thinking when I play. It feels like playing chess at some times.

    DexterJuliusBorisov
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,521
    edited September 2014
    Gotural said:

    What has kept me so interesting in Baldur's Gate throughout all these years is that it feels like I'm actually thinking when I play. It feels like playing chess at some times.

    Oh, so you consider triple horrid wilting chain contingency "thinking when you play?" Mages in Icewind Dale were at least a bit more balanced than in Baldur's Gate. I mean, do you really think it was a good idea to make mages better tanks than barbarians?
    Gotural said:

    If these spells didn't exist, why would anyone want to become a Mage? Why would anyone want to spend dozen of years to learn arcane magic if wielding a sword was as powerful?

    On the other hand, if these spells DID exist, why would anyone want to become a fighter? Becoming a skilled warrior requires a lot of practice too. Being a skilled fighter is no more about simply swinging a stick around than being a skilled mage is about muttering a bunch of syllibles.

    baldurskjdRAM021
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199

    Oh, so you consider triple horrid wilting chain contingency "thinking when you play?" Mages in Icewind Dale were at least a bit more balanced than in Baldur's Gate. I mean, do you really think it was a good idea to make mages better tanks than barbarians?

    In my opinion, this is actually a bad use of Chain Contingency. So no, I don't consider this "thinking when I play". And yes, I think it is a good idea to make Mages better tanks than Barbarian.

    On the other hand, if these spells DID exist, why would anyone want to become a fighter? Becoming a skilled warrior requires a lot of practice too. Being a skilled fighter is no more about simply swinging a stick around than being a skilled mage is about muttering a bunch of syllibles.

    In the D&D lore, being a Mage is actually a lot harder than being a Fighter. And that's pretty much it.
    The same thing exist in real life too. You have the choice to study more, to get a better job, to get paid more. Of course it depends of the country where you live, and some others datas, but you get my point. I absolutely mean no offense to anyone.

    The Mage is the one who studied until he was 27 to become a doctor, while the Barbarian is the one who dropped of school at 16 because it was boring for him. They are always some exceptions of course, and as I said, I absolutely mean no offense to anyone, sometime you don't have the choice. But in most cases, the doctor will get paid more than the other one. And still, a lot of people won't study that much because they don't want to, or don't need to.

    And that's also what is happening in D&D (2d edition at least). And still, a lot of people become Fighters even if Mages are more powerful.

    JuliusBorisov
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,521
    Gotural said:

    The Mage is the one who studied until he was 27 to become a doctor, while the Barbarian is the one who dropped of school at 16 because it was boring for him. They are always some exceptions of course, and as I said, I absolutely mean no offense to anyone, sometime you don't have the choice. But in most cases, the doctor will get paid more than the other one. And still, a lot of people won't study that much because they don't want to, or don't need to.

    But then where do you place the Sorcerer, who didn't study for a billion years but in Baldur's Gate 2 is even more powerful than a mage (and still a better tank than a barbarian)? Do THEY deserve to be overpowered?

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,244

    Gotural said:

    The Mage is the one who studied until he was 27 to become a doctor, while the Barbarian is the one who dropped of school at 16 because it was boring for him. They are always some exceptions of course, and as I said, I absolutely mean no offense to anyone, sometime you don't have the choice. But in most cases, the doctor will get paid more than the other one. And still, a lot of people won't study that much because they don't want to, or don't need to.

    But then where do you place the Sorcerer, who didn't study for a billion years but in Baldur's Gate 2 is even more powerful than a mage (and still a better tank than a barbarian)? Do THEY deserve to be overpowered?
    Sure, in the same way as the Queen deserves to be overpowered. Having the right parents trumps any amount of hard work and study.

    NimranMoomintroll
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 3,935
    Fardragon said:

    Gotural said:

    The Mage is the one who studied until he was 27 to become a doctor, while the Barbarian is the one who dropped of school at 16 because it was boring for him. They are always some exceptions of course, and as I said, I absolutely mean no offense to anyone, sometime you don't have the choice. But in most cases, the doctor will get paid more than the other one. And still, a lot of people won't study that much because they don't want to, or don't need to.

    But then where do you place the Sorcerer, who didn't study for a billion years but in Baldur's Gate 2 is even more powerful than a mage (and still a better tank than a barbarian)? Do THEY deserve to be overpowered?
    Sure, in the same way as the Queen deserves to be overpowered. Having the right parents trumps any amount of hard work and study.
    Just like politics.

    RAM021
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    Since the Sorcerer has innate arcane magic, is incredibly overpowered, seems to be extremely rare as well. I would guess it is the lucky guy who was born with an IQ of 200. But it's only my opinion once again.

    JuliusBorisov
  • VarwulfVarwulf Member Posts: 550

    Gotural said:

    The Mage is the one who studied until he was 27 to become a doctor, while the Barbarian is the one who dropped of school at 16 because it was boring for him. They are always some exceptions of course, and as I said, I absolutely mean no offense to anyone, sometime you don't have the choice. But in most cases, the doctor will get paid more than the other one. And still, a lot of people won't study that much because they don't want to, or don't need to.

    But then where do you place the Sorcerer, who didn't study for a billion years but in Baldur's Gate 2 is even more powerful than a mage (and still a better tank than a barbarian)? Do THEY deserve to be overpowered?
    The rich kid who inherited his fortune?

    Nimran
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