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Cleric kits

FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
If I am reading correctly IWD:EE will feature all of the BGEE and BG2EE kits. However I am wondering will there be any new kits? More specifically as the title says I am interested in the Cleric kits but also others as well.

IWD2 for exampe had 9 cleric kits...although ofc it used different set of DnD rules but still...

In addition to three "default" kits such as Morninglord of Lathander, Watcher of Helm and Stormlord of Talos there were also 6 other kits (2 for each alignment):
Painbearer of Ilmater (Good alignment)
Silverstar of Selune (Good)
Lorekeeper of Oghma (Neutral)
Battleguard of Tempus (Neutral)
Dreadmaster of Bane (Evil)
Demarch of Mask (Evil)

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/clerics.php



Also kinda related when IWD2 was first announced it was also planned to have kits as well for other classes until they decided to switch from 2ed AD&D to 3ed D&D. The devs also left info in game for these new kits as the change of rules happened during development and people found them. So there was a new kit for each of the classes in BG2 which replaced one other kit. Now honestly I would like to see them all implemented without replacing anything but simply added just like Shadowdancer or Sun Soul/Dark Moon Monks were added in EE editions.

For example in IWD2 these new kits were planned (while still based on 2nd AD&D rules):
Fighters: Mercenary, Wizard Slayer, Weapons Master (Kensai) - Mercenaries obviously replaced Berserkers...I presume due to its similarity with Barbarian. Kensai was renamed 'Weapons Master'.

MERCENARY: Mercenaries are soldiers who sell their services to the highest bidder. Traveling great distances in harsh conditions for coin and fame, the mercenary is a man or woman who must master a variety of weapons and styles to satisfy his or her employer's needs.

Advantages:
* Two extra proficiency slots at 1st level.
* One extra proficiency slot at 6th level.
* Carry weight increased by 50%.

Disadvantages:
* Unable to start with Weapon Specialization.
* Unable to achieve Grand Mastery in a weapon.


Paladins: Cavalier, Inquisitor and Votary - Votary replaced Undead Hunter

VOTARY: Grim, intensely devoted champions of their faith, votaries are the bane of all evil priests. Votaries are known for their vehement dislike for all foreign religions and their skill at dispatching the agents of such faiths.

Advantages:
* +4 attack bonus and Damage vs. Clerics and Druids.
* 1 additional spell per spell level the votary is able to cast.
* 1 additional Holy Smite per day/4 levels.

Disadvantages:
* May not use Lay on Hands.
* May not use Remove Disease.


Druids: Avenger, Shapeshifter and Aes Dana - again Totemic Druid from BG2 was replaced by 'Aes Dana'

AES DANA: Among the more civic-minded of druids, the Aes Dana are well versed in history, frequently assist war bands, and heal the wounded after battle. Druids like the Aes Dana are often found in the Moonshae Isles.

Advantages:
* +10 to Lore.
* 3rd level: Cure Moderate Wounds 1/Day.
* 5th level: Prayer 1/Day.
* 7th level: Recitation 1/Day.

Disadvantages:
* Cannot shapeshift into animals, only elementals at high levels.


Thieves: Assassin, Swashbuckler and Arcane Rogue - Bounty Hunter replaced by Arcane Rogue

ARCANE ROGUE: Combining the skills of a rogue with minor magical powers, the arcane rogue is a potent scout and decoy. The arcane rogue focuses less time on lethal combat than his or her fellow rogues.

Advantages:
* +10% to Use Magic Device.
* 5th level: Invisibility 1/day.
* 9th level: Improved Invisibility 1/day.
* 11th level: Dimension Door 1/day.
* 15th level, Shades 1/day.

Disadvantages:
* -10% on all rogue skills except Use Magic Device.
* Cannot make Sneak Attacks (Backstab).


Bards: Blade, Riddlemaster and Skald - Riddlemaster replaced Jester from BG2

RIDDLEMASTER: This bard uses odd, confusing riddles to infuriate and dazzle opponents. As Riddlemaster gains experience, he or she learns more powerful riddles in the same manner that a traditional bard learns songs.

Advantages:
* 3rd level: The Infuriating Dilemma: This riddle is so annoying to the target that he or she goes berserk for five rounds. It is useable 3/day.
* 5th level: King's Logic: The Riddlemaster presents a logic puzzle so fascinating that the target is stunned for five rounds. It is useable 3/day.
* 7th level: Gram's Paradox: All enemy creatures within 20' of the Riddlemaster are confused for five rounds. It is useable 1/day.
* 9th level: Foolproof: The Riddlemaster is immune to all confusion, fear, and berserk effects.
* 11th level: Conundrum: The target of this incredibly difficult riddle is subjected to a Feeblemind spell. It is useable 3/day.

Disadvantages:
* All deaf/silenced creatures, elementals, undead, animals, and constructs are immune to the Riddlemaster's riddles. Creatures with Intelligence under 5 or over 19 are immune to the riddles as well. All creatures receive a saving throw vs. spell against the effects.
* Riddlemasters only gain the Ballad of Three Heroes bard song.


Rangers: Stalker, Giant Killer and Archer - Giant Killer replaced Beast Master

GIANT KILLER: The classic heroes of countless tales throughout the Realms, Giant Killers are rangers who devote their efforts towards the protection of civilized lands from evil giants and their kin.

Advantages:
* +1 attack bonus per level vs. Giants, Ogres, and Trolls.
* +1 to Damage per level vs. Giants, Ogres, and Trolls.

Disadvantages:
* Giant killers may not select a racial enemy.
* Giant killers are unable to track.

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=25916


So to recap I'd like to see all these kits being "re-introduced" back in IWD: EE on top of the BG&BG2 EE kits. :)

Post edited by Finellach on
The_New_RomancebooinyoureyesButtercheese
«1

Comments

  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    edited September 2014
    Tarlugn said:

    If ID:€€ ever comes out, I´d really, really much like to see an Auril cleric kit.

    It should be something cool and unique, and could have these two spells: Protection From Cold & Slow.


    You know I actually agree with you. I always thought Mask as an available cleric kit was a rather strange choice. I think Auril would be perfect in that setup replacing Mask.

    Or perhaps Shar would be even better choice IMO since she was a greater deity.

    In any case I'd like to see more cleric kits from the existing BGEE setup and few of these others I mentioned for other classes.

  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    edited September 2014
    Hah just looking at the Cleric kits from IWD2 I noticed now they went for each kit corresponding with one alignment.

    Lawful Good: Ilmater
    Neutral Good: Lathander
    Chaotic Good: Selune
    Lawful Neutral: Helm
    True Neutral: Oghma
    Chaotic Neutral: Tempus
    Lawful Evil: Bane
    Neutral Evil: Mask
    Chaotic Evil: Talos

    As mentioned above regarding Mask I think it would be better if it was replaced by some other Cleric kit such as mentioned Icebreath of Auril, Doombringer of Myrkul or Nightcloak of Shar...all of which are or were also Neutral Evil deities.


    Also I've also made a full list of all the classes and their kits from BG2, BG2EE and those kits that were planned (or added) in IWD2. All of wich I'd like to see in IWD:EE. :)

    Fighter: Berserker, Dwarven Defender*, Mercenary**, Weapon Master (Kensai), Wizard Slayer

    Ranger: Archer, Beastmaster, Giant Killer**, Stalker

    Paladin: Cavalier, Inquisitor, Undead Hunter, Votary**

    Cleric: Morninglord of Lathander, Painbearer of Ilmater**, Silverstar of Selune**, Watcher of Helm, Lorekeeper of Oghma**, Battleguard of Tempus**, Dreadmaster of Bane**, Demarch of Mask**, Stormlord of Talos

    Druid: Aes Dana**, Avenger, Shapeshifter, Totemic Druid

    Mage: Abjurer, Conjurer, Diviner, Enchanter, Illusionist, Invoker, Necromancer, Transmuter, Wild Mage

    Thief: Arcane Rogue**, Assassin, Bounty Hunter, Shadowdancer*, Swashbuckler

    Bard: Blade, Jester, Riddlemaster**, Skald

    Sorcerer: Dragon Disciple*

    Monk (Old Order Monk**): Dark Moon Monk*/**, Sun Soul Monk*, Broken One Monk**

    Barbarian

    *added in BGEE and BG2EE
    **added in IWD2 or planned for IWD2 2ed AD&D setup

    Post edited by Finellach on
    booinyoureyes
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    I'm sorry, but the Mercenary is absolutely TERRIBLE! Wizard Slayer, you can come back off the bottom.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    No Cleric of Bhaal? Really? He is alive during IWD you know.

    booinyoureyes
  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    edited September 2014
    Dazzu said:

    I'm sorry, but the Mercenary is absolutely TERRIBLE! Wizard Slayer, you can come back off the bottom.

    Sorry for what? It's not like I was the one who made up that kit, it was planned and implemented for a while (until they switched to 3ed rules which has no kits) by the same company and team who made the IWD games. And also as far as I know the kit comes directly from the 2ed D&D guides and manuals.

    Plus I don't think it's really that "terrible". By the same reasoning you could say that trueclass Fighter is terrible when compared to f.e. Berserkers, because Berserkers retain everything from trueclass Fighters and also get a bonus ability with absolutely no significant disadvantages (-2 AC, to hit and damage penalty after using Berserk and not being able to have more than two pins in ranged weapons is a joke compared to penalties some other kits have...especially other Fighter kits) which I always considered wrong. But to be honest most Fighter kits are nothing special. As for Mercenary kit...you get more proficiencies in various weapons and weapon styles and you get increased weight you can carry but all with a penalty to not being able to achieve grand mastery. What is so "terrible" about that?
    DreadKhan said:

    No Cleric of Bhaal? Really? He is alive during IWD you know.

    Again the list and kits I posted above are not something I made up, this is a list of all kits and classes which were originally planned for or added in IWD2. So all criticism directed towards me is just completely barking at the wrong tree. ;)

    And there is nothing wrong with Bhaal tbh, but Bhaal at this time was a minor/intermediate deity subordinated to Bane while deities such as Myrkul or Shar were greater deities. In fact Myrkul was quite big at this time period (which is around 100 years before the Bhaalspawn crisis happened) and we have priests and cults of Myrkul appearing in IWD2 f.e. so personally I'd like to see priests of Myrkul kit rather than Mask f.e. Or as I said priests of Shar since we already have Selune. Auril would also be a decent choice as mentioned, even though she was a very minor deitiy but fits quite well in the setup.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    You're like a gimped Paladin or ranger, except that you get to fill your inventory with yeti pelts... hooray?

    High Mastery SUCKS, it offers nothing of worth. You get High Mastery because it's a road block to that extra 1/2 attack, no other reason! Admittedly, there are a lot of weapons, but even starting without the ability to specialize is bad for a warrior as that half attack means a lot more so early on.

    Maybe if Mercs had a bonus +1 APR, I might call them good, even great or amazing.

  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    Dazzu said:

    You're like a gimped Paladin or ranger, except that you get to fill your inventory with yeti pelts... hooray?

    High Mastery SUCKS, it offers nothing of worth. You get High Mastery because it's a road block to that extra 1/2 attack, no other reason! Admittedly, there are a lot of weapons, but even starting without the ability to specialize is bad for a warrior as that half attack means a lot more so early on.

    Maybe if Mercs had a bonus +1 APR, I might call them good, even great or amazing.

    Well I think that was intended...Mercenary was concieved like a "bard" variant of the Fighter class...expert at wide variety of weapons but master at none. Plus they added the mule perk. ;)

    However none says these kits cannot be tweaked or changed around. All I am saying is the list I posted is compiled list of kits from BG2, BGEE and IWD2 (2ed AD&D setup). However I am all open to a discussion about certain kits but ultimately I'd like to see all these in game...as originally intended or tweaked...thus I agree with you.



    elminster
  • TolbenTolben Member Posts: 26
    So that's where those Bard abilities come from. I ran into them while using Dalekeeper a while ago, and I've always wondered what they were supposed to be used for. The game also has some spells that were cut, which you can still find and use through Dalekeeper.

    I think that a kit for Bhaal, would probably be a Deathstalker, which could be a cleric with thief/assassin abilities or a thief with cleric abilities. Melissan is actually a Deathstalker too, but the game treats her as a cleric/mage. '

    Anyways, I do think that IWD and IWD2 need more kits. As many have said, a Cleric of Auril would be fantastic. I would really like to see more Dragon Disciple Kits, maybe one for each dragon color, which would of course include different dragon breath attacks. Since IWD2 uses a different stat system, they could even implement the str bonus that a Dragon Disciple is supposed to get. Some of the Prestige Classes from Neverwinter Nights could possibly be converted to 2nd edition and 3rd edition. As it is, BG:EE and BG2:EE already have some of the Neverwinter Nights Prestige Classes/Kits, so it shouldn't be too complicated to have a Shifter, Pale Master, Arcane Archer, Champion of Torm, and a Harper Scout kit.

    If anyone wants to see what these Prestige Classes can do here is the link:

    http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Prestige_class

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,807
    @Tolben‌

    At least for now, it's only IWD 1. Therefore it's using the exact same stat setup and everything that the 2 BGs used. 3rd Ed stats didn't get used until IWD2

  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    edited September 2014

    @Tolben‌

    At least for now, it's only IWD 1. Therefore it's using the exact same stat setup and everything that the 2 BGs used. 3rd Ed stats didn't get used until IWD2

    The prestige classes in NWN and in 3ed D&D in general are exactly the same thing as "kits" in 2ed AD&D, though modified according to the new rules. So as we can see from that list I posted there is absolutely no reason to not add more kits, especially for clerics, this shouldn't be a problem at all. And I will emphasize once more that the list I posted above are kits from IWD2 while it was still developed and announced as 2ed AD&D game, which they later scrapped and switched over to 3ed.

    Besides as Tolben mentioned there are some "prestige classes" or kits that were present in NWN as well...namely Shadowdancer, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, (Red) Dragon Disciple, etc which first appeared in NWN but were added now in BGEE. These prestige classes were also present in 2ed AD&D as well but not in vanilla BG games.

    If they do decide to make IWD2:EE it would be interesting how will they handle that since IWD2 used 3ed rules and there were no kits anymore. But this is really something totally unrelated and nonsensical to discuss at this point.

    IWD2 had some prestige classes however but these were mainly religion based so you would choose a cleric class and then you would have to choose your deity (one of the above 9 mentioned "kits" or prestige classes). Paladins had three options - Paladin of Ilmater, Paladin of Helm and Paladin of Mystra. Monks also had three options - Monk of the Old Order (default Monk from BG2), Monk of the Order of the Broken Ones (Monks following Ilmater) and Monks of the Dark Moon (Monks of Shar...the same "kit" they added in BGEE & BG2EE). And ofc Mages who retained their "prestige classes" (specialization mages) even in 3ed. Every other class didn't have any "kits" or "prestige classes" as they were now referred in 3ed.

    As you can see different rule sets are not a serious obstacle at all.

  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    edited September 2014
    Actually the class options from IWD2 weren't really prestige classes at all. Prestige classes were something that you built your character towards and achieved at a higher level from meeting prerequisites. The class options in IWD2 were basically kits... they were taken at level one and offered some minor changes to the base class and some of them were unnoticable unless you built your character a certain way(the Paladin "kits" only allowing one to freely multiclass out of the Paladin class for example).

    That said, I'm all for them adding new class options to the games, all of the EE's, but if they did an EE version of IWD2 I'd be really cool if they could implement a true prestige class experience. Classes that have their own Hit Die progression, B.A.B., Skills, Class abilities etc. That weren't just minor alterations of an already existing class (sometimes unnoticable alterations). Not sure it's within the capabilities of the engine... but one can dream...

    Schneidend
  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    GoodSteve said:

    Actually the class options from IWD2 weren't really prestige classes at all. Prestige classes were something that you built your character towards and achieved at a higher level from meeting prerequisites. The class options in IWD2 were basically kits... they were taken at level one and offered some minor changes to the base class and some of them were unnoticable unless you built your character a certain way(the Paladin "kits" only allowing one to freely multiclass out of the Paladin class for example).

    Yes, they were not prestige classes in a true meaning of what a prestige class is. However when I talked about "prestige classes" (and the reason why I put quotation marks almost every time I mentioned them) is because I was talking about the name itself of the "kit", "prestige class" or subclass...whatever you want to call it. If you look at the 3ed rules all of the Cleric, Paladin and Monk "kits" in IWD2 were in fact prestige classes...in fact all kits in BG2 (vanilla or EE) were also prestige classes in 2ed as well AFAIK. There was no such thing as "class kit" in D&D, that was novelty specific for BG2.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,301
    edited September 2014
    Prestige classes in 3rd edition where intended to do the same job as kits in 2nd (and the plethora of subclasses added to 1st).

    IWD2 was using an engine designed for 2nd edition, even though it tried to add as much 3rd edition as possible. If that means the IWD2 cleric kits can be imported, I would love so see it, since the BG2 Cleric kits are, frankly, rubbish.

    I reckon Favoured Soul aught to be doable in the BG2EE engine...

  • FinellachFinellach Member Posts: 36
    Fardragon said:

    Prestige classes in 3rd edition where intended to do the same job as kits in 2nd (and the plethora of subclasses added to 1st).

    IWD2 was using an engine designed for 2nd edition, even though it tried to add as much 3rd edition as possible. If that means the IWD2 cleric kits can be imported, I would love so see it, since the BG2 Cleric kits are, frankly, rubbish.

    I reckon Favoured Soul aught to be doable in the BG2EE engine...

    I'd like to see that too. IWD2 had spells properly divided per each Cleric kit or rather its "domain". So a priest of Tempus would get some spells a priest of Lathander would not and vice versa. It was something similar to what the old mod "Divine Remix" tried to do in BG2. It made the each cleric kit different from each other and it also balanced Druids with Clerics since they were rubish when compared to them.

    Vanilla (and EE) Cleric kits are basically all the same save for one or two special ability and that is it. In general the entire divine spell table is a total mess in both IWD and BG games. However if it could have been done it IWD2, which was based on the same Infinity engine, that means it can be done in any Infinity game....however it remains to be seen if Beamdog would be willing to go there since it would mean the entire overhaul of the cleric/druid spell table.

    For examples of how IWD2 Cleric domains worked it can be seen here:
    http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/clerics.php
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/552350-icewind-dale-ii/faqs/19052

    For comparison this is how the Druid spell list looked like in IWD2:
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/552350-icewind-dale-ii/faqs/19053

  • TomarctusTomarctus Member Posts: 49
    Just let that character hang waaaay waaaaay back when speaking to him =).

    I was also wondering mostly about the different priestly orders. Would really hope those get implemented in some way and perhaps make their way to baldur's gate too at some point. Good to hear that subtledoctor is on the job at least. Will have to check that out.

    booinyoureyes
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    edited September 2014
    The question is: are all these gods still alive? Helm, for instance, dies about 20 years after the events of the Bhaalspawn saga, so if a future IE 2E adventure were created, set at least that far ahead, you would be a moron to choose said dead god since he couldn't empower you.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,183
    1) IWD takes place ~80 years before BG1 so the traditional ranks of deities are safe picks for priests. I think (never played it) IWD2 takes place 100 years after IWD1, so 20 years after BG.

    2) Priests of various dead/missing deities pretty commonly retained their abilities - like Waukeen and Leira.

    The_New_Romancebooinyoureyes
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    edited September 2014

    1) IWD takes place ~80 years before BG1 so the traditional ranks of deities are safe picks for priests. I think (never played it) IWD2 takes place 100 years after IWD1, so 20 years after BG.

    2) Priests of various dead/missing deities pretty commonly retained their abilities - like Waukeen and Leira.

    Icewind Dale 2 takes place in 1310 DR, which is 58 years before Baldur's Gate. The ToT hasn't happened, everyone is still alive and kicking. Icewind Dale 1 is playing out in 1281 DR. The BGs are set in 1368/68 DR.

    DR means "Dale Reckoning" and is the main calendar/computation of time in Faerun, where the games take place.

    booinyoureyes
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Finellach said:

    GoodSteve said:

    Actually the class options from IWD2 weren't really prestige classes at all. Prestige classes were something that you built your character towards and achieved at a higher level from meeting prerequisites. The class options in IWD2 were basically kits... they were taken at level one and offered some minor changes to the base class and some of them were unnoticable unless you built your character a certain way(the Paladin "kits" only allowing one to freely multiclass out of the Paladin class for example).

    Yes, they were not prestige classes in a true meaning of what a prestige class is. However when I talked about "prestige classes" (and the reason why I put quotation marks almost every time I mentioned them) is because I was talking about the name itself of the "kit", "prestige class" or subclass...whatever you want to call it. If you look at the 3ed rules all of the Cleric, Paladin and Monk "kits" in IWD2 were in fact prestige classes...in fact all kits in BG2 (vanilla or EE) were also prestige classes in 2ed as well AFAIK. There was no such thing as "class kit" in D&D, that was novelty specific for BG2.
    Actually, the only Monk kit in IWD2 that was actually a PrC was the Sun Soul Monk, from City of Splendors: Waterdeep. There is no Monk of the Old Order or Dark Moon Monk PrC. Likewise, many of the Cleric "kits" weren't actually prestige classes either, some prestige classes of those gods existed but function WAY differently than they did in IWD2, to the point of being a completely different animal all together. The "kits" from the cleric classes were more like a representation of cleric domains which were lacking from the game. Each gave two small bonuses that were cose to what common domain abilities for clerics of those gods would recieve.

    Painbearer of Ilmater wasn't a class. The closest aproximation might be the Matyred Champion of Ilmater, but with only half spell casting progression, and monk-like unarmed damage increases it is more of a Monk/Cleric hybrid class.

    Watcher of Helm also wasn't a class, and there weren't any Helm specific prestige classes in 3e or 3.5. A shame really as Helm is one of my favorite deities.

    Lorekeeper of Oghma wasn't a class, the closest you could get was the Loremaster which wasn't Oghma specific, or even Forgotten Realms specific. In fact, it was more commonly used as a Wizard (Diviner) prestige class... and not a very good one at that.

    Battleguard of Tempus wasn't a class either, there were lots of classes that had the same spirit as a Battleguard of Tempus such as the Warpriest. none of them were specific to Tempus or the Forgotten Realms however.

    Demarch of Mask was also never a PrC. There were a few classes with the same idea behind them, a rogueish cleric but none specific to Mask. Strangely enough Kossuth had one, the Black Flame Zealot, which was more of a Cleric/Assassin, and Vhaeraun had one, the Darkmask. The Divine Seeker from Player's Guide to Faerun was kind of a divine themed rogue class but it wasn't specific to mask and granted no divine spellcasting abilities.

    Also, none of the Paladin "kits" were prestige classes in 3e. However, in 3.5 there were substitution levels (basically kits in that they traded some class abilities for others much like the kits in BG2) for Paladins from the Order of The Golden Cup and the Companions of the Noble Heart (Ilmater), the Mystic Fire Knight (Mystra), and the Order of the Vigilant Eye of Helm (Helm). These substitution levels replaced three levels of the base Paladin class and modified or exchanged certain class features and are not PrC's.

    elminsterDreadKhanStarflower2525booinyoureyes
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    Lolth and the Drow pantheon are tripping over prestige classes in 3.x... it was pretty comical, though I like Ghaunadaur more than a little, so I forgive some.

    Mask had the overpowered mini-prestige class, but it used arcane magic despite requiring sanction from Mask's Church.

    Tyr had the Justicar iirc, which was a paladin/cleric cross. Moradin had the insanely overpowered prestige class that required divine spells but progressed as a warrior only. And was ridiculously good. Horus-Re had one, and Lathander too iirc.

    Kamigoroshibooinyoureyes
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    DreadKhan said:

    Lolth and the Drow pantheon are tripping over prestige classes in 3.x... it was pretty comical, though I like Ghaunadaur more than a little, so I forgive some.

    Mask had the overpowered mini-prestige class, but it used arcane magic despite requiring sanction from Mask's Church.

    Tyr had the Justicar iirc, which was a paladin/cleric cross. Moradin had the insanely overpowered prestige class that required divine spells but progressed as a warrior only. And was ridiculously good. Horus-Re had one, and Lathander too iirc.

    Which Mask prestige class is that? i wasn't aware he had any...

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    I coulda sworn helm was dead by the time 3.5 rolled around. Death date 1384, and BG2 is 1368/9... so unless the time between 2.5 era rules and 3.5 era rules is that short, I wouldn't be surprised if Helm stopped having any power.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,183
    Finellach said:

    ...in fact all kits in BG2 (vanilla or EE) were also prestige classes in 2ed as well AFAIK. There was no such thing as "class kit" in D&D, that was novelty specific for BG2.

    Nope, AD&D 2E had kits out the wazoo. They were not all about mechanical bonuses & penalties, like in BG2, rather they were more about role-playing. E.g. you could be a priest of some god or other, or a generalist cleric, and then on top of that you would choose a kit: a rich urbane nobleman cleric, or a temple priest tending to parishioners, or a poor country priest from a small village, or an outlaw priest like Friar Tuck, etc. There were all sorts of similar wizard kits that were independent of specialist schools.

    Some kits did veer into mechanical differences, and were clearly the inspiration for the BG kits (and all if those prestige classes later in 3E). The kensai, berserker, archer, beastmaster, stalker, assassin, bounty hunter, swashbuckler, blade, skald, and jester were all proper 2E kits. They played differently, mostly because the Bioware devs were kind of munchkins (quote: "Blades do not have a good understanding of offensive and defensive maneuvers." I'm not kidding. Their only PnP bonus was a display that instilled fear in enemies.)

    Cleric-wise, there were some sourcebooks that blurred the lines between deity choice and kit. E.g. "Warriors and Priests of the Realms" (which I used as inspiration for my cleric and paladin kits) has kits as members of different sects of worship. Like for Sune, there were Aesthetes who tend to the injured and disfigured; and Silkwhispers, beautiful adventurers who acted kind of like spies. Shar had the Darkcloak sect, tending to lost and traumatized and mentally damaged folk; and Nightbringers, evil agents who actively sought to destroy worshipers of Selune. For Tempus there was the Battleforge, which was basically an armorer, and the Gloryblood, who adventured and looked for battles to join. Et cetera.

    The list of kits kind of metastasized, as they became standard additions in every sourcebook in every game setting in the 90s.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,708
    edited September 2014
    Dazzu said:

    I coulda sworn helm was dead by the time 3.5 rolled around. Death date 1384, and BG2 is 1368/9... so unless the time between 2.5 era rules and 3.5 era rules is that short, I wouldn't be surprised if Helm stopped having any power.

    As you pointed out Helm dies in 1384. 4th edition starts in 1385. I don't know if there is a fixed date for when 3.5 starts, but 3rd edition starts in 1372. So as long as its not set in 4th edition or later its possible for him to be alive.

    The_New_Romance
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Dazzu said:

    I coulda sworn helm was dead by the time 3.5 rolled around. Death date 1384, and BG2 is 1368/9... so unless the time between 2.5 era rules and 3.5 era rules is that short, I wouldn't be surprised if Helm stopped having any power.

    Helm was alive and well throughout the 3rd and 3.5 editions. He died "off camera" during the events leading up to the Spellplague and 4e (which is utter garbage in my opinion.) He was killed in a duel brought on by a fit of rage from the Lawful Good god of Justice... that makes lots of sense.

  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    edited September 2014
    elminster said:

    Dazzu said:

    I coulda sworn helm was dead by the time 3.5 rolled around. Death date 1384, and BG2 is 1368/9... so unless the time between 2.5 era rules and 3.5 era rules is that short, I wouldn't be surprised if Helm stopped having any power.

    As you pointed out Helm dies in 1384. 4th edition starts in 1385. I don't know if there is a fixed date for when 3.5 starts, but 3rd edition starts in 1372. So as long as its not set in 4th edition or later its possible for him to be alive.
    Don't confuse D&D editions with the Forgotten Realms timeline (if you even do)! While certain things in the Realms are only possible with certain rulesets/editions, most of the Realms stories and fluff are edition-neutral (even though the sourcebooks contain "starting dates" that were used to advance the story in relation to the passing of real time between editions). You can have a 3E game set in 1190 DR, if you want to - the use of 3E doesn't dictate what deities exist, only the Realmstime does.

    4E is a bit different, because they changed how magic worked and stuff. Still, you could probably express Drizzt or Azoun IV in 4E terms, so in the end the particular edition doesn't matter much with regard to the going-ons on Faerun.

    subtledoctorLordRumfish
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    edited September 2014
    @The_New_Romance I think they were referring to the RSE (Realms Shattering Event[s]) that brought on the new editions of DnD. For some reason, WotC figured they needed to really shake up their settings when a new edition of the rules came out, doing things that turned the realms on their heads, like the Avatar Crisis and the Spellplague. While you can play post spellplague in AD&D rules if you like, Helm was killed in the build up to the Spellplague which happened at the same time they converted to 4e DnD.

    elminster
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