The unmodded game has several extremely powerful strategies, and naturally the characters that can make best use of those are the "strongest".
Spike Traps for one are incredibly cheesy, as they can kill almost anything in a blink.
Harm + Timestop is another classic (all attacks under TS hit automatically), and a specialty of Aerie's.
Use Any Item can also be abused in a number of ways, and is particularly strong on Jan due to the mage secondary.
Speaking of mages, they are of course the best class by far, and no mage is better than Edwin - however, as good as the extra spells on him are, they may not be cheesy enough considering some of the things you can do.
Keldorn is amazing on paper thanks to the incredibly (over?)powerful Inquisitor dispel - but in the unmodded game you rarely need that, as all enemies are wet paper towels that you can tear apart by as much as looking at them if you know what you're doing.
The stats on the characters actually matter fairly little in the grand scheme of things (i.e. when you go full-on powergaming mode), but Viconia probably wins there as she has some very high values on her sheet. Her magic resistance is very very good also.
Then there's always Sarevok, who can be downright unfair if you are lucky enough with his Deathbringer Assault (fairly low chance to deal 200(!!) damage on attack). Is a fighter, though - i.e. not a mage, i.e. already handicapped...
So, given all that, I'd probably rank things like this:
#1 Jan #2 Aerie #3 Haer'Dalis ...and the rest below that in no specific order
Spike Traps are just soooo good
In a modded game (SCS/Tactics, Ascension as the baseline) things change. Keldorn suddenly becomes MVP as mages are what it's all about and his dispel eats them alive. Spike Traps lose value (many trap-immune enemies) and so does backstab (also lots of immunities), pushing Thieves down the list. Well, actually that "list" is a bit of an illusion, since there are so many mod options available that there are too many fluctuations to put things into a meaningful order. Even Keldorn may be curbed in power depending on your settings (SCS can limit Inquisitor dispel multipliers to x1/x1.5). Generally speaking the NPCs mentioned above are all in it, but whether they are at the top or the bottom of the list can vary drastically. Heck, even alignment choice and in-game dialogue choices can vary things up...
3) Edwin (definitely the most buffed NPC, but is evil and has issues with some other npc's)
4)Minsc or Keldorn for melee (minsc has more appealing stats but keldorn has better kit)
also I think non-evil NPC's are better. For some reason game gets harder for me every time I try to do an evil walkthrough. Only exception is Edwin. But everyone else, the good/neutral counterparts are easier to play with. For example:
viconia vs anomen/jaheira. Viconia just dies alot and has to be micromanaged. Whereas jaheira and anomen have almost the same spell potential but can also fight and use weapons because their strengh allows it
Hexxat vs jansen. I dont see how Hex's godlike stats help her in any way as a thief is still fragile as hell and has to be micromanaged and the AI scripts are crappy for backstabbing thieves.
Dorn. Decent kit and great strengh. But everything else is crap. A bit low on HP for a front liner. And essentially the same thing as other front liners
So where is the "evil" advantage people speak of?
Note this could also be a difficulty thing, as recently I installed a bunch of mods increasing difficulty which, as a result, make survivability much more important
I'd have to go with Keldorn. For my playstyle, I find it really hard to live without those incredible dispels. The true sight is extremely handy too.
I've never been much of a fan of Jan as a power character. For me he's basically a slow levelling mage with some thief skills. So a worse Imoen or Nalia. I don't really use traps much.
I'd have to go with Keldorn. For my playstyle, I find it really hard to live without those incredible dispels. The true sight is extremely handy too.
I've never been much of a fan of Jan as a power character. For me he's basically a slow levelling mage with some thief skills. So a worse Imoen or Nalia. I don't really use traps much.
altho my list doesnt prioritize keldorn, I could see why he'd be youre top and its justifiable. His kit is good due to those innate abilities.
Use Any Item can also be abused in a number of ways, and is particularly strong on Jan due to the mage secondary.
I'd like to know what items in particular are good for Jan. Also, what about Jan makes him go up so high in the list of posters who appear to know a lot about powergaming? Is it the spike traps?
All traps actually are really amazing. Jan has huge synergy, like using thief weapons, and UAI is really more of an icing than the cake. Fireball trap is not worth taking, but his Thief traps and HLA ones are beastly.
Illusionists get an extra spell per level, which largely offsets his multi-class, and by ToB, he likely has more spells than other non-Edwin arcanes. Dispelling illusions, setting traps and even mundane thievery are all possibilities with Jan, and his Bruiser Mate ammo is very useful in game. @semiticgod can attest to that I think.
It is easy to get HLAs with multis as well, another big edge for him later. Early on, his gear is actually quite solid, especially until he gets both access to better gear, and more Thief levels. Probably by level 15 he only uses his armour, but that armour is very good for a mage. Gnomes also get a bonus to Saves vs Spell, a very handy perma-buff, which helps more early, but never stops being an asset.
@DreadKhan: Thank you for summoning me. I am immensely fond of Jan's flashers, and would argue that they are not only the most useful NPC item; they are one of the most useful items in the entire saga.
In another thread (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/38135/killing-kangaxx-with-flasher-master-bruiser-mates#latest), I explain how they can be used to stunlock Kangaxx the Demilich (and almost any other enemy in the game) indefinitely, with little chance of the victim escaping. It's an involved process, but it lets you force an entire group of enemies to save multiple times every round or be stunned. And since the party gets automatic hits on stunned enemies, they're basically toast the moment they fail a save. In fact, since Jan's flashers can force so many saving throws every round, they actually can reliably disable parties of drow, despite their magic resistance.
By and large, the only critters immune to stun are undead (besides liches, who are vulnerable but resistant to Jan's flashers), dragons, and plot-related enemies. Until very, very late in the game, Jan can wreck basically any enemy group with just his flashers and Firetooth. I have just completed a no-reload run of SCS2 in which Jan and his flashers played an instrumental role on many occasions (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/38312/the-party-of-spiders-no-reload-scs2-run#latest). Or, he can cast Mislead before entering spider form, and every melee attack he makes will be at +4 THAC0 and strike as a backstab. He actually has much better damage potential than a Kensai, or even a Kensai/Thief, of the same level.
He also enjoys access to some rather excellent equipment that boosts his thieving skills (he's particularly adept at Detect Illusions, which obviates the need for True Seeing spells), and which gives him 25% resistance to physical damage. His being an Illusionist also will give him about as many spell slots as Nalia for much of the early and midgame.
And in the late game, he will have access to Time Traps (automatic hits), Spike Traps (70 average damage, no save), UAI (Carsomyr, Scarlet Ninja-to, Chaos Blade), and Assassination (backstab enemies even when they're facing you).
Jan is only weak if he is treated as an auxiliary mage or thief. If you keep him at the back and have him fire a single flasher every round, and toss out a Magic Missile now and then, naturally he's not going to be much help. But if you use Jan to his full potential, he can do things that no other character can do. He can be a better damage dealer than any other character. He can be a better disabler than any other character, too, with the possible exception of a druid without SCS2 installed (Insect Plague is arguably better than the flashers, but they're nerfed by SCS2).
In the vanilla game, mages have no defense against Inquisitors. But SCS2 is a different story, even without the Inquisitor nerfs. Keldorn is not going to easily take down the SCS2 mage with PFMW and SI: Abjuration, even if you've managed to kill Firkraag and get Carsomyr first.
But if you ask Jan to attack a high-level mage (with a save vs. spell of 6) with his flashers, he has a 76% chance of paralyzing the mage on the first round (0.7^4=0.24). Bear in mind this requires Jan to land every hit, but he can target low-level summons, or the Flesh Golem from the Golem Manual in Watcher's Keep, and get in effectively automatic hits against everything in his target's vicinity. Once you get Improved Haste, that jumps to 94% (0.7^8=0.0576). If you use Greater Malison, that's 94% and 99%. Even liches, who have a save vs. spell of 1, will get stunned 34% of the time if Jan uses Improved Haste.
And that's against mages. Other enemies won't have such good saves vs. spell.
Thanks for the input. Stunning Kangaxx with flashers is kind of hilarious! I would consider the choking grasp trick to be bug abusing though, so I wouldn't do it in my playthroughs (this is really just personal preference). Are flashers still effective with the standard APR?
The polymorph/mislead/backstab is an interesting combo, I never really tried polymorphing very much.
About the druid damage potential: Are you talking polymorph tricks as well? I'd be interested in how a druid can deal more damage then a dual wielding kensai.
I think Jan could tweak a crossbow to be usable by a spider. His other equipment is just as crazy.
Flashers are indeed still effective with the standard APR, if you switch out Firetooth for the Light Crossbow of Speed sometimes. And at epic levels at least, Jan can add a fully attack per round by wearing the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and Boots of Speed. But it works much better in spider form.
I meant Jan is a better damage dealer and disabler than most any character, and the sole exception would be that a vanilla druid would be a better DISABLER. So, Jan surpass both a druid and a Kensai in terms of damage, but maybe not surpass a druid in terms of disabling power. I'll edit my post to clarify that.
I do not know how a druid could deal more damage than a Kensai, unless you're talking about a Shapeshifter dualed to fighter at level 13, since you can dispel the greater werewolf paws, add in the Impaler (say), and get 5 base APR with a two-handed weapon. I've never tried that, though.
I agree with @semiticgod, @CrevsDaak (I think) and (maybe) @DreadKhan that Jan Jansen is the "best" NPC. To be honest my opinion was originally based more on his fantastic class and his excellent armor, I wasn't aware of how powerful his Bruiser Mates are.
One thing semiticgod, you state that Jan can add a full APR at high levels, using the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (which indeed +1/2 APR) and the Boots of Speed, but although I'd love to be wrong afaik the vanilla Boots do not increase APR, only movement speed. Not sure if there are other items that can increase the number of Jan's attacks with his crossbow.
I usually go with personality over efficiency when choosing my party, so that might explain my odd choices.
Yoshimo. I wasn't going to go with the Keeping Yoshimo mod on my latest run, but hearing "If you are not in league with the evil that dwells within this place, Yoshimo begs your assistance," melted my callous heart. Jan 2nd, because he is very well executed and enjoyable. Valygar 3rd, because he's amazing, especially with Jan. Haer'Dalis 4th, because he has a wonderful bromance with me. Cernd 5th, because he's so chill.
@semiticgod I am curious to hear how Jan can surpass a Kensai in terms of damage? I must not be very imaginative.
For reference, with IH and Crom Faeyr my guy was averaging just over 400 dmg/round base damage for crit immune (2x that for non-immune + CS) and 100% hits.
Admittedly, that does not take into account damage resistance and other factors...
3) Edwin (definitely the most buffed NPC, but is evil and has issues with some other npc's)
4)Minsc or Keldorn for melee (minsc has more appealing stats but keldorn has better kit)
also I think non-evil NPC's are better. For some reason game gets harder for me every time I try to do an evil walkthrough. Only exception is Edwin. But everyone else, the good/neutral counterparts are easier to play with. For example:
viconia vs anomen/jaheira. Viconia just dies alot and has to be micromanaged. Whereas jaheira and anomen have almost the same spell potential but can also fight and use weapons because their strengh allows it
Hexxat vs jansen. I dont see how Hex's godlike stats help her in any way as a thief is still fragile as hell and has to be micromanaged and the AI scripts are crappy for backstabbing thieves.
Dorn. Decent kit and great strengh. But everything else is crap. A bit low on HP for a front liner. And essentially the same thing as other front liners
So where is the "evil" advantage people speak of?
Note this could also be a difficulty thing, as recently I installed a bunch of mods increasing difficulty which, as a result, make survivability much more important
Korgan is better than Minsc and on par with Keldorn (Berserker mini godmode vs. Dispel)
Anomen/Jaheira > Viconia. I agree. Though one could make the case that Viconia gets Magic Resist.
Edwin > All other casters.
So in vanilla BG2, 2 out of 3 evil characters are super awesome. EE NPCs... let's just say that I am in general very much disappointed in EE NPCs.
Plus, you don't have to be evil in order to play with evil characters. Just maintain a rep of 18 or lower and you will be fine. I never play as an evil CHARNAME in a game when evil means stupid evil.
@Blackraven: The Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization add 0.5 APR, and Boots of Speed, since they use a variant of haste, fill in the extra 0.5 APR. Just like if you cast Haste on a fighter with 2.5 APR, it will go up to 3 instead of 3.5, Boots of Speed can fill in an extra 0.5 APR, but they do nothing but increase movement speed unless your APR is a fraction.
@JLee: Jan switches to spider form, dispels spider weapon, equips Staff of the Ram, 13.5 average damage. Other spellcaster uses Improved Haste on Jan, or else he uses Spell Trigger, for 8 APR. He then casts Mislead via a Contingency or Spell Trigger, which makes every melee attack a backstab, up to 5x damage. He also equips the Gauntlets of Specialization, for another two damage. That's (15.5)*8*5=620 damage.
And I think he can 9 APR with the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. And I didn't add in the spider's 1 STR bonus, since it doesn't get multiplied by backstab. And that's the non-upgraded form of Staff of the Ram. And I didn't include Tenser's Transformation. And the Iron Golem form, very late game, might have more damage potential.
So yes, Jan is better at dealing damage than a Kensai, if he uses the right setup. And of course, at earlier levels, the numbers would be lower.
@Blackraven: The Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization add 0.5 APR, and Boots of Speed, since they use a variant of haste, fill in the extra 0.5 APR. Just like if you cast Haste on a fighter with 2.5 APR, it will go up to 3 instead of 3.5, Boots of Speed can fill in an extra 0.5 APR, but they do nothing but increase movement speed unless your APR is a fraction.
Wow, learning something new every day about this game... I never knew that. Thanks for clarifying
@semiticgod Haste spell gives +1 APR. Boots of speed do not affect APR in any way (edit: at least in any way I can see on the character record.)
Edit 2: I just tested and you're right about Haste spell. I never noticed that before. It only adds 0.5 APR to someone with a /2 APR! My apologies...
Thank you for your explanation. In theory, you are correct, but the shenanigans required to pull that off limit its usefulness in-game. Also, you are not taking into account misses. At a thac0 of 4, Jan will be missing fairly regularly in ToB. I would argue that many of the enemies that require that much damage are likely going to be immune to backstabbing anyway.
But I am grateful to you for sharing your very creative technique. I never would have thought of that!
Very true about the THAC0. Although, if we're talking about ToB, then his THAC0 wouldn't be 4 with Mislead active. My current run of ToB has Jan at 11 base THAC0, so let's say 12 base at an earlier level. The gauntlets take that to 10, the Staff of the Ram take that to 4 when upgraded, and Mislead's melee THAC0 bonus (invisible and stealth both give a +4 bonus to THAC0, to assist backstabbing) takes that down to 0. I don't know how often that will miss, but an Elite Fire Giant (I have DLTCEP open at the moment) has -3 AC, so Jan could hit it quite regularly. Time Traps also guarantee automatic hits. But the Kensai would almost assuredly have 95% hit rate, even against enemies with lower AC, and it's worth pointing out that a lot of BG2 or ToB bosses are immune to backstab, cutting Jan's potential damage by 80%!
On average, over the course of the game, Jan would probably do less damage than a Kensai, all things considered. But it wouldn't be a huge gap, which is why I would put Jan at the top of the stack when it comes to NPCs. Even with Deathbringer Assault, Sarevok himself has less damage output than Jan. Jan might not beat a Kensai (at least in this field), but he does win out over other NPCs. The only NPC who could do more damage than Jan is Haer'dalis, if you use Mislead to stack songs.
The "shenanigans" thing you mentioned is the biggest argument against Jan as a melee damage dealer. I've been using this trick regularly in my current run and it requires a fair amount of upkeep and attention. It's also very inflexible and requires pre-buffing. More than anything else, a Kensai can use any weapon effectively, and Jan is mostly limited to only a portion of thief weapons.
iirc, the Boots don't add apr in EE, but they did in vanilla ToB. In EE, I think they are coded to only affect movement. In vanilla, you could get vanilla Assassin up to 5 apr!
Could barely hit the broad side of a gnoll though, DWing sucks with rogue THAC0 and 1 pip in TWF. Another great idea scrapped back in the day for me! for the record, the last .5 came from using either Boots of Speed or the Grandmaster armour, and you DW speed weapons while wearing the gauntlets. With rebalancing mods adding that extra PIP space in TWF for Assassins though, this build would be more useable, but an Assassin to Cleric dual would hit way, way harder, and have vastly better THAC0.
I haven't run numbers, but I bet an Assassin to Cleric high level dual would do more damage than Jan by a goodly amount, though he would need to be using Assassinate sometimes to do it. Late ToB of course, more baddies are immune to backstabs, best to stick with flinging poison Energy Blades vs them.
I just did the math. If an Assassin/Cleric is using Belm and the Scarlet Ninja-to and backstabbing with Assassination while wearing the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and under the effects of DUHM, Righteous Magic, Aid, and Improved Haste, it should do 938 damage per round. That's not counting Poison Weapon or the Scarlet Ninja-to's poison effect, which could bump up the damage to just over 1000. Still, you can only take Assassination once, and the only other way to get guaranteed backstabs every hit is to use Mislead, which the Assassin/Cleric can only cast via a scroll.
You know what would be really silly?
Using Poison Weapon with Jan's flashers. Area effect, party-friendly poison damage.
I just did the math. If an Assassin/Cleric is using Belm and the Scarlet Ninja-to and backstabbing with Assassination while wearing the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and under the effects of DUHM, Righteous Magic, Aid, and Improved Haste, it should do 938 damage per round. That's not counting Poison Weapon or the Scarlet Ninja-to's poison effect, which could bump up the damage to just over 1000. Still, you can only take Assassination once, and the only other way to get guaranteed backstabs every hit is to use Mislead, which the Assassin/Cleric can only cast via a scroll.
You know what would be really silly?
Using Poison Weapon with Jan's flashers. Area effect, party-friendly poison damage.
Yeah, that could be a pretty snazzy trick for an Assassin in BG2. Assassin really does make for a pretty doable playthrough for the entire series. I guess you wouldn't be soloing BG2 if you used Jan, but you could rolesplain either stealing his idea (and make your own flashers), or pretend he rested a bunch with you and built you a stockpile of 'enough to do the game'. *looks innocent*
Assassination is only once per day for pure thieves too I guess, thought it might be restricted only for multis. Meh, can still nap after if you will need it again!
Last time I checked, you could take assassination multiple times. I don't own EE though and I applied the triple class HLA tweak (dunno if that changes anything). Interesting thing to hear about haste and boots of speed. Is there some testing regarding how they work in EE? I think you really shouldn't be allowed to dispel natural weapons when polymorphing.
How is a Druid the best disabler? How do you stack songs with mislead? Semiticgod you should write a cheese handbook
iirc, the Boots don't add apr in EE, but they did in vanilla ToB. In EE, I think they are coded to only affect movement. In vanilla, you could get vanilla Assassin up to 5 apr!
Could barely hit the broad side of a gnoll though, DWing sucks with rogue THAC0 and 1 pip in TWF. Another great idea scrapped back in the day for me! for the record, the last .5 came from using either Boots of Speed or the Grandmaster armour, and you DW speed weapons while wearing the gauntlets. With rebalancing mods adding that extra PIP space in TWF for Assassins though, this build would be more useable, but an Assassin to Cleric dual would hit way, way harder, and have vastly better THAC0.
I haven't run numbers, but I bet an Assassin to Cleric high level dual would do more damage than Jan by a goodly amount, though he would need to be using Assassinate sometimes to do it. Late ToB of course, more baddies are immune to backstabs, best to stick with flinging poison Energy Blades vs them.
I believe that many players use the un-nerfed THAC0 component found in the BG2 tweaks for instance. In the long run this will annihilate one of the primary advantages for warriors. I did it too. It becomes very easy to ignore (or forget) the impact of such a modification.
Last time I checked, you could take assassination multiple times. I don't own EE though and I applied the triple class HLA tweak (dunno if that changes anything). Interesting thing to hear about haste and boots of speed. Is there some testing regarding how they work in EE? I think you really shouldn't be allowed to dispel natural weapons when polymorphing.
How is a Druid the best disabler? How do you stack songs with mislead? Semiticgod you should write a cheese handbook
In the EE they've changed the times you can choose Assassination down to 1. I think there was a Guide of Cheese done almost 12 years ago...
Last time I checked, you could take assassination multiple times. I don't own EE though and I applied the triple class HLA tweak (dunno if that changes anything). Interesting thing to hear about haste and boots of speed. Is there some testing regarding how they work in EE? I think you really shouldn't be allowed to dispel natural weapons when polymorphing.
How is a Druid the best disabler? How do you stack songs with mislead? Semiticgod you should write a cheese handbook
In the EE they've changed the times you can choose Assassination down to 1. I think there was a Guide of Cheese done almost 12 years ago...
While that makes some sense, Assassinate is not as good as Spike Traps, so that is an odd call IMHO. Time Traps are a BIT more reasonable arguably, since there are bosses immune to it, similar to backstabbing.
Comments
Spike Traps for one are incredibly cheesy, as they can kill almost anything in a blink.
Harm + Timestop is another classic (all attacks under TS hit automatically), and a specialty of Aerie's.
Use Any Item can also be abused in a number of ways, and is particularly strong on Jan due to the mage secondary.
Speaking of mages, they are of course the best class by far, and no mage is better than Edwin - however, as good as the extra spells on him are, they may not be cheesy enough considering some of the things you can do.
Keldorn is amazing on paper thanks to the incredibly (over?)powerful Inquisitor dispel - but in the unmodded game you rarely need that, as all enemies are wet paper towels that you can tear apart by as much as looking at them if you know what you're doing.
The stats on the characters actually matter fairly little in the grand scheme of things (i.e. when you go full-on powergaming mode), but Viconia probably wins there as she has some very high values on her sheet. Her magic resistance is very very good also.
Then there's always Sarevok, who can be downright unfair if you are lucky enough with his Deathbringer Assault (fairly low chance to deal 200(!!) damage on attack). Is a fighter, though - i.e. not a mage, i.e. already handicapped...
So, given all that, I'd probably rank things like this:
#1 Jan
#2 Aerie
#3 Haer'Dalis
...and the rest below that in no specific order
Spike Traps are just soooo good
In a modded game (SCS/Tactics, Ascension as the baseline) things change. Keldorn suddenly becomes MVP as mages are what it's all about and his dispel eats them alive. Spike Traps lose value (many trap-immune enemies) and so does backstab (also lots of immunities), pushing Thieves down the list. Well, actually that "list" is a bit of an illusion, since there are so many mod options available that there are too many fluctuations to put things into a meaningful order. Even Keldorn may be curbed in power depending on your settings (SCS can limit Inquisitor dispel multipliers to x1/x1.5). Generally speaking the NPCs mentioned above are all in it, but whether they are at the top or the bottom of the list can vary drastically. Heck, even alignment choice and in-game dialogue choices can vary things up...
1) jan (fills 2 roles nicely, and is fun to have)
2) jaheira and anomen (dat duel/multi class)
3) Edwin (definitely the most buffed NPC, but is evil and has issues with some other npc's)
4)Minsc or Keldorn for melee (minsc has more appealing stats but keldorn has better kit)
also I think non-evil NPC's are better. For some reason game gets harder for me every time I try to do an evil walkthrough. Only exception is Edwin. But everyone else, the good/neutral counterparts are easier to play with. For example:
viconia vs anomen/jaheira. Viconia just dies alot and has to be micromanaged. Whereas jaheira and anomen have almost the same spell potential but can also fight and use weapons because their strengh allows it
Hexxat vs jansen. I dont see how Hex's godlike stats help her in any way as a thief is still fragile as hell and has to be micromanaged and the AI scripts are crappy for backstabbing thieves.
Dorn. Decent kit and great strengh. But everything else is crap. A bit low on HP for a front liner. And essentially the same thing as other front liners
So where is the "evil" advantage people speak of?
Note this could also be a difficulty thing, as recently I installed a bunch of mods increasing difficulty which, as a result, make survivability much more important
I've never been much of a fan of Jan as a power character. For me he's basically a slow levelling mage with some thief skills. So a worse Imoen or Nalia. I don't really use traps much.
altho my list doesnt prioritize keldorn, I could see why he'd be youre top and its justifiable. His kit is good due to those innate abilities.
Illusionists get an extra spell per level, which largely offsets his multi-class, and by ToB, he likely has more spells than other non-Edwin arcanes. Dispelling illusions, setting traps and even mundane thievery are all possibilities with Jan, and his Bruiser Mate ammo is very useful in game. @semiticgod can attest to that I think.
It is easy to get HLAs with multis as well, another big edge for him later. Early on, his gear is actually quite solid, especially until he gets both access to better gear, and more Thief levels. Probably by level 15 he only uses his armour, but that armour is very good for a mage. Gnomes also get a bonus to Saves vs Spell, a very handy perma-buff, which helps more early, but never stops being an asset.
In another thread (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/38135/killing-kangaxx-with-flasher-master-bruiser-mates#latest), I explain how they can be used to stunlock Kangaxx the Demilich (and almost any other enemy in the game) indefinitely, with little chance of the victim escaping. It's an involved process, but it lets you force an entire group of enemies to save multiple times every round or be stunned. And since the party gets automatic hits on stunned enemies, they're basically toast the moment they fail a save. In fact, since Jan's flashers can force so many saving throws every round, they actually can reliably disable parties of drow, despite their magic resistance.
By and large, the only critters immune to stun are undead (besides liches, who are vulnerable but resistant to Jan's flashers), dragons, and plot-related enemies. Until very, very late in the game, Jan can wreck basically any enemy group with just his flashers and Firetooth. I have just completed a no-reload run of SCS2 in which Jan and his flashers played an instrumental role on many occasions (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/38312/the-party-of-spiders-no-reload-scs2-run#latest). Or, he can cast Mislead before entering spider form, and every melee attack he makes will be at +4 THAC0 and strike as a backstab. He actually has much better damage potential than a Kensai, or even a Kensai/Thief, of the same level.
He also enjoys access to some rather excellent equipment that boosts his thieving skills (he's particularly adept at Detect Illusions, which obviates the need for True Seeing spells), and which gives him 25% resistance to physical damage. His being an Illusionist also will give him about as many spell slots as Nalia for much of the early and midgame.
And in the late game, he will have access to Time Traps (automatic hits), Spike Traps (70 average damage, no save), UAI (Carsomyr, Scarlet Ninja-to, Chaos Blade), and Assassination (backstab enemies even when they're facing you).
Jan is only weak if he is treated as an auxiliary mage or thief. If you keep him at the back and have him fire a single flasher every round, and toss out a Magic Missile now and then, naturally he's not going to be much help. But if you use Jan to his full potential, he can do things that no other character can do. He can be a better damage dealer than any other character. He can be a better disabler than any other character, too, with the possible exception of a druid without SCS2 installed (Insect Plague is arguably better than the flashers, but they're nerfed by SCS2).
In the vanilla game, mages have no defense against Inquisitors. But SCS2 is a different story, even without the Inquisitor nerfs. Keldorn is not going to easily take down the SCS2 mage with PFMW and SI: Abjuration, even if you've managed to kill Firkraag and get Carsomyr first.
But if you ask Jan to attack a high-level mage (with a save vs. spell of 6) with his flashers, he has a 76% chance of paralyzing the mage on the first round (0.7^4=0.24). Bear in mind this requires Jan to land every hit, but he can target low-level summons, or the Flesh Golem from the Golem Manual in Watcher's Keep, and get in effectively automatic hits against everything in his target's vicinity. Once you get Improved Haste, that jumps to 94% (0.7^8=0.0576). If you use Greater Malison, that's 94% and 99%. Even liches, who have a save vs. spell of 1, will get stunned 34% of the time if Jan uses Improved Haste.
And that's against mages. Other enemies won't have such good saves vs. spell.
The polymorph/mislead/backstab is an interesting combo, I never really tried polymorphing very much.
About the druid damage potential: Are you talking polymorph tricks as well? I'd be interested in how a druid can deal more damage then a dual wielding kensai.
Flashers are indeed still effective with the standard APR, if you switch out Firetooth for the Light Crossbow of Speed sometimes. And at epic levels at least, Jan can add a fully attack per round by wearing the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and Boots of Speed. But it works much better in spider form.
I meant Jan is a better damage dealer and disabler than most any character, and the sole exception would be that a vanilla druid would be a better DISABLER. So, Jan surpass both a druid and a Kensai in terms of damage, but maybe not surpass a druid in terms of disabling power. I'll edit my post to clarify that.
I do not know how a druid could deal more damage than a Kensai, unless you're talking about a Shapeshifter dualed to fighter at level 13, since you can dispel the greater werewolf paws, add in the Impaler (say), and get 5 base APR with a two-handed weapon. I've never tried that, though.
One thing semiticgod, you state that Jan can add a full APR at high levels, using the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (which indeed +1/2 APR) and the Boots of Speed, but although I'd love to be wrong afaik the vanilla Boots do not increase APR, only movement speed.
Not sure if there are other items that can increase the number of Jan's attacks with his crossbow.
Yoshimo. I wasn't going to go with the Keeping Yoshimo mod on my latest run, but hearing "If you are not in league with the evil that dwells within this place, Yoshimo begs your assistance," melted my callous heart.
Jan 2nd, because he is very well executed and enjoyable.
Valygar 3rd, because he's amazing, especially with Jan.
Haer'Dalis 4th, because he has a wonderful bromance with me.
Cernd 5th, because he's so chill.
For reference, with IH and Crom Faeyr my guy was averaging just over 400 dmg/round base damage for crit immune (2x that for non-immune + CS) and 100% hits.
Admittedly, that does not take into account damage resistance and other factors...
Anomen/Jaheira > Viconia. I agree. Though one could make the case that Viconia gets Magic Resist.
Edwin > All other casters.
So in vanilla BG2, 2 out of 3 evil characters are super awesome. EE NPCs... let's just say that I am in general very much disappointed in EE NPCs.
Plus, you don't have to be evil in order to play with evil characters. Just maintain a rep of 18 or lower and you will be fine. I never play as an evil CHARNAME in a game when evil means stupid evil.
@JLee: Jan switches to spider form, dispels spider weapon, equips Staff of the Ram, 13.5 average damage. Other spellcaster uses Improved Haste on Jan, or else he uses Spell Trigger, for 8 APR. He then casts Mislead via a Contingency or Spell Trigger, which makes every melee attack a backstab, up to 5x damage. He also equips the Gauntlets of Specialization, for another two damage. That's (15.5)*8*5=620 damage.
And I think he can 9 APR with the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. And I didn't add in the spider's 1 STR bonus, since it doesn't get multiplied by backstab. And that's the non-upgraded form of Staff of the Ram. And I didn't include Tenser's Transformation. And the Iron Golem form, very late game, might have more damage potential.
So yes, Jan is better at dealing damage than a Kensai, if he uses the right setup. And of course, at earlier levels, the numbers would be lower.
Edit 2: I just tested and you're right about Haste spell. I never noticed that before. It only adds 0.5 APR to someone with a /2 APR! My apologies...
Thank you for your explanation. In theory, you are correct, but the shenanigans required to pull that off limit its usefulness in-game. Also, you are not taking into account misses. At a thac0 of 4, Jan will be missing fairly regularly in ToB. I would argue that many of the enemies that require that much damage are likely going to be immune to backstabbing anyway.
But I am grateful to you for sharing your very creative technique. I never would have thought of that!
On average, over the course of the game, Jan would probably do less damage than a Kensai, all things considered. But it wouldn't be a huge gap, which is why I would put Jan at the top of the stack when it comes to NPCs. Even with Deathbringer Assault, Sarevok himself has less damage output than Jan. Jan might not beat a Kensai (at least in this field), but he does win out over other NPCs. The only NPC who could do more damage than Jan is Haer'dalis, if you use Mislead to stack songs.
The "shenanigans" thing you mentioned is the biggest argument against Jan as a melee damage dealer. I've been using this trick regularly in my current run and it requires a fair amount of upkeep and attention. It's also very inflexible and requires pre-buffing. More than anything else, a Kensai can use any weapon effectively, and Jan is mostly limited to only a portion of thief weapons.
Could barely hit the broad side of a gnoll though, DWing sucks with rogue THAC0 and 1 pip in TWF. Another great idea scrapped back in the day for me! for the record, the last .5 came from using either Boots of Speed or the Grandmaster armour, and you DW speed weapons while wearing the gauntlets. With rebalancing mods adding that extra PIP space in TWF for Assassins though, this build would be more useable, but an Assassin to Cleric dual would hit way, way harder, and have vastly better THAC0.
I haven't run numbers, but I bet an Assassin to Cleric high level dual would do more damage than Jan by a goodly amount, though he would need to be using Assassinate sometimes to do it. Late ToB of course, more baddies are immune to backstabs, best to stick with flinging poison Energy Blades vs them.
You know what would be really silly?
Using Poison Weapon with Jan's flashers. Area effect, party-friendly poison damage.
Assassination is only once per day for pure thieves too I guess, thought it might be restricted only for multis. Meh, can still nap after if you will need it again!
Interesting thing to hear about haste and boots of speed. Is there some testing regarding how they work in EE?
I think you really shouldn't be allowed to dispel natural weapons when polymorphing.
How is a Druid the best disabler? How do you stack songs with mislead? Semiticgod you should write a cheese handbook