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Science. Learn it, Read it, Share it.

CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
edited September 2014 in Off-Topic
Good afternoon to my fellow forumites! It's 11:38pm here in Australia as I write this, I should really be asleep but for whatever reason, I'm not.

I've been doing a ton of reading tonight and I thought I'd bring some of it here, given this is a wonderful collection of very smart, very friendly people who always offer new and fascinating insights!

I've been reading this: http://www.iflscience.com/environment/huge-underground-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core

Which I find fascinating, it got me thinking about Mars, could the same be true of the red planet? Would this explain why it's not covered with oceans? The thin wisp of atmosphere that remains and the relative tectonic stability? Surface water evaporated/froze and the rest is trapped?

If it is the case is there a way we could get to it?

( By the way, use this thread to share ANYTHING science related you'd like to talk about! As the title suggests, love to read it! )

Post edited by Tresset on
TressetTeflon

Comments

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    We have been finding water in many places lately. The Moon, for instance. I see no reason a planet that used to have oceans and rivers can't have water under its surface.
    rufus_hobartlolienCrevsDaakdeltago
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Water is really a very simple molecule, and there likely is tons of it in the universe. I'd be shocked if find a planet that doesnt have any!
    lolienCrevsDaak
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    Very good point.

    I'd also be curious to know, would pumping massive amounts of greenhouse gases into the Mars atmosphere cause global warming? Would it be, in theory, possible to return it to it's habitable state this way?

    I was also wondering, with budget cuts to most space agencies these days, are we becoming to stagnant on this front?
    lolien
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited September 2014
    1. We'll, mars doesn't have oceans because the atmosphere is to thin and cold to hold liquid water right now- it just evaporates. There are lots of frozen water crystals just under the surface though. If you scape a whole there will be snow on the bottom which disappears after a few minutes.

    2. Mars is tectonically stabe because it's finished. There is no magma under the surface, it's solid through and through.

    3. Mars has a thin atmosphere because it's small and has no magnetic field. It's all it can hold. On earth there is more gravity to hold the air on, and we have an electromagnetic field that protects us from the brunt of the solar wind and nasties that would blow("blow":/)the air away. Most places don't have this and the gas just dissipates(hello moon).
    CaloNord said:


    I'd also be curious to know, would pumping massive amounts of greenhouse gases into the Mars atmosphere cause global warming? Would it be, in theory, possible to return it to it's habitable state this way?

    Theoretically, yes. This(terraforming) is possible, though not as quickly and drastically as some(most) science fiction shows would like you to think. Funding is always an issue though.
    Terraforming a planet like Mars would take thousands of years, not hundreds like firefly(I'll cut it some slack and say most of those planets where really almost like earth.), or *cough**cough* ten like that Defiance show that I watched the first season of. That had other issues, too.
    CaloNordNonnahswriterlolien
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    Very curious. It would probably be our best bet for establishing an off world colony would it not? The moon doesn't have an awful lot of potential? Even though that's always been the sort of 'go to' place for fictions first off world colony.

    I also found this fascinating.

    http://www.space.com/26713-impossible-space-engine-nasa-test.html

    http://www.space.com/11230-water-powered-spaceship-mars-solar-system.html

    One of the major hurdles being a decent reliable propulsion system that doesn't require massive amounts of fuel to be lugged with you. This has some promise.


  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I, for one, would *love* to live on the moon rather then mars. I would like to be able to see earth, and I think I like the moons color better. Also, you could still have internet, news, and reasonable timely contact with loved ones , things that would be hard to come by on mars.
    Along with that it's not as much of a commitment. There's a way better shot at coming back home. With current technology, Mars is pretty much a one-way ticket, and I'm not so sure about that, unless I can take like 20 people with me.
    I also have a thing for the moon. It's so beautiful from here. It's not beyond me to simply step outside and stare at it for nigh on ten minutes, though it's usually obscured by trees. I can only imagine what it would be like to look down at earth in the same way... Something that I think will be possible in my lifetime, and (with [a *lot* of] luck) my pay grade(i intend to become incredibly rich)
    That's an ultimate goal, I suppose. See the earth from space....

    *sigh*

    lolien
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    One of the most interesting announcements from NASA lately is that they are working in a warp drive engine. We have known for decades they are possible but the energy requirements put them in the impossible technology range. I'd really like to know how NASA engineers solved this problem...
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    If they solved it, I doubt they'd tell us. ;)

    Biggest hurdle I know of for anything space is the mindboggling cost. Leaving the earth's gravity is fuel intensive beyond reason, so until we either A) have magnitudes more energy dense fuel storage or B) the space tether to just lug things up, doing anything in space is nearly impossible.

    Another big step will be building factories in space. Asteroids have plenty of metals, but mining and processing is a hassle. Ideally, we can build 1 small robotic factory thst makes more factories. This would cause the cost of space travel to plummet.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    I am assuming you don't want this in the German off topic section, @CaloNord‌, and moving it to the English off topic section for you.
    CaloNordlolienCrevsDaak
  • TeflonTeflon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 515
    Hmm interesting but not the ocean I expected.
    Thanks for good material to read though.
    CaloNord
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited September 2014
    While astronomy is cool, I was hoping to find a more general science thread based on the topic.
    DreadKhanCaloNordCrevsDaakTeflon
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    Why in the hell did I put in the German section? :P Mein Deutsch is a little rusty. . . Thanks so much @Tresset‌

    I was reading about that the other day, they also suspect that it is tectonically active, which apparently plays some part in maintaining water on the surface of a planet. It pools underground and tectonic activity pushes it upwards.

    I'm very curios about the possibility of colonizing nearby planets. There must be a ton of valuable metals we could mine surely? Something to help make it worth the money it would cost in R&D.

    I was wondering about the feasibility of an orbital space dock type structure? It would much easier to construct large deep space vessels in orbit then try to get them out of Earths gravity well when they are finished. Not to mention the danger of it exploding on the way up.

    Are we somewhat limited in what our concept of life is? Given the limited experience we have? Could life be sulfur based for example? Silicone based?
    lolienTeflon
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262

    While astronomy is cool, I was hoping to find a more general science thread based on the topic.

    @FinneousPJ‌ I'm sure it will get there eventually. As it says in the OP anything science is welcome here so if you want to change the topic I am sure that would be ok.
    CaloNordCrevsDaak
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Tresset said:

    About water on other planets, I hear from the various astrophysics and astronomy shows I like to watch that scientists are extremely interested in Jupiter's moon Europa. They apparently discovered that, not only is there water on this moon, but they believe there is liquid water on the moon! Europa's surface is apparently covered in water ice, but miles below this ice there is a planet wide liquid water ocean that is heated by the friction caused by Jupiter's massive gravity constantly pulling and stretching the moon in various directions. They say that having water in its liquid state is possibly the most important factor for forming life as it acts as a medium allowing for chemicals to blend and mix into various combinations that could not be made easily in a gas or solid medium.

    There is also the commonly proposed possibility that life could actually come from liquid methane instead of liquid water. I believe there is another moon (possibly around Saturn) in our solar system where it rains liquid methane but I don't remember for sure...

    Life has been found in likely harsher enviroments on good ol' Earth, ie thermal vents/volcanoes and recently under the glaciers of antarctica... under very thick glaciers I add. While liquid wster is considered necessary for Earthlike life, there are also theories that molecules form very well in a freeze/thaw cycle vs a soup, since the freezing tends to concentrate things.

    Methane also comes up from vents on Titan, which is considered a reasonable candidate for life.

    My personal area of interest is in welding and metal-based fabrication... asteroids thus are interesting.

    I wonder how long it'll take before someone makes metalurgically revolutionary versions of the 3d printer, likely based on a plasma arc. Especially manufacturing intricate goods from more exotic steels, and interesting techniques to control grain structure... and of course good old layering and pre-tempered finished products.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Tresset said:



    There is also the commonly proposed possibility that life could actually come from liquid methane instead of liquid water. I believe there is another moon (possibly around Saturn) in our solar system where it rains liquid methane but I don't remember for sure...

    Yes. Titan. It doesn't just rain it it's got lakes and such much like earth and water, I believe.
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    That. Is actually kinda cool. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25360516

    Weren't they thinking about building an underwater capable space probe to send to Europa? In the hope of getting samples and looking for microbial life in the water there? I can't recall exactly where I saw that! Did find this though.

    http://www.space.com/24926-nasa-europa-mission-2015-budget.html

    I know it would be time consuming, but shouldn't we retrieve some of these probes? Have them come back here and put them into orbit, shame no one operates a shuttle anymore. Though by the time it gets back in 30 years maybe we will. :P I was just thinking that if it grabbed a sample of Europa water, wouldn't we learn more from having it here?

    Space Agencies need to get together on major projects. Would be such a shame to see scientific curiosity and perhaps the best chance for the human race in the very long run be buried because no one wants to pay for it. Would also be great to have the worlds major nations working together.

    @FinneousPJ‌ Yes man, as Tresset said, anything goes here. If you can write it up and throw it in, go for it! :D

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Well, I am very interested in DNA sequencing and it's relation with data processing. I have in mind some swift (a scripting language from 2012 created with scientific purposes) scripts that compare different thousands of DNA sequences by parts, length and their complete sequence. But of course, I'd need a computer able to process this huge information overload, besides, I'd need the information and to debug those scripts a bit :p

    @FinneousPJ‌ might be interested in this ;)
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @DreadKhan‌ The proper general terms are rapid prototyping/additive manufacturing. 3D printing is only one technology. There are already RP/AM methods which use metals, e.g. SLS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @CrevsDaak Bioinformatics is not my main area of study, but I'd love to help. I believe you can download data from here http://www.genomesonline.org/
    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @FinneousPJ‌ thanks ;) but I lack both space in the HD and the CPU (& ram) to process it :p
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @CrevsDaak There are datasets of different sizes. There should be DNA available for single-celled organisms to begin with, lol.
    CrevsDaak
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857

    @DreadKhan‌ The proper general terms are rapid prototyping/additive manufacturing. 3D printing is only one technology. There are already RP/AM methods which use metals, e.g. SLS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering

    Yeah, I was aware of that, but that process imho still isnt advanced enough metallurgically speaking. Mechanical properties of martensite forming metal can vary enourmously. And its not really able to effectively make precise and very thin layers of martensitic and ferritic steel for example.

    You could probably design a robot arm with a MIG gun to build faster than still, or if quality is really important, TIG could be used.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Yes, but that wouldn't be RP/AM, that'd just be an advanced welding robot.
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