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Sub races...

MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291
in Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition
BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why not bring the sub races of IWD2 to IWD:EE? I hope the lack of appropriate portraits is not the problem. I'd draw them myself.
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  • Twilight_FoxTwilight_Fox Member Posts: 448
    Agreed, having the sub races of iwd2 could be nice (considering that we will have those of bg:ee).
  • KanaricKanaric Member Posts: 31
    MonoCanalla said:

    BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why not bring the sub races of IWD2 to IWD:EE? I hope the lack of appropriate portraits is not the problem. I'd draw them myself.

    Because they re not 2e ADND races?
  • Twilight_FoxTwilight_Fox Member Posts: 448
    Some sub class that will be in iwd:ee are not 2e either, but they will be there.

    Its always nice to have more options to personalize our party but yeah, its unlikely that the sub race of iwd2 will be added in the iwd:ee. Still, it could be nice.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    Kamigoroshi said:


    BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why Additionally, both the Aasimars and Tieflings from AD&D require to *roll* their racial abilities on various tables (unlike their 3e/4e/5e counterparts). Needless to say this wouldn't bode well in any infinity game. It's more likely that anyone who tries their hands on this will suffer from chronic headaches.

    Maybe standardised abilities? Takes the fun out of things, but it'd be easier for the Developers. Maybe based on class.
    I used to pop open Dale Keeper and call it a day. Also, can we please get a palette changer in EE Keeper for IWD: EE, kthx :3
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    SCARY_WIZARD said:

    Kamigoroshi said:


    BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why Additionally, both the Aasimars and Tieflings from AD&D require to *roll* their racial abilities on various tables (unlike their 3e/4e/5e counterparts). Needless to say this wouldn't bode well in any infinity game. It's more likely that anyone who tries their hands on this will suffer from chronic headaches.

    Maybe standardised abilities? Takes the fun out of things, but it'd be easier for the Developers. Maybe based on class.
    I used to pop open Dale Keeper and call it a day. Also, can we please get a palette changer in EE Keeper for IWD: EE, kthx :3
    You can have random(ish) racial abilities, certainly by class. This could be modded even now. One could actually do that now, with up to 100 different possibilities* for each race. One could also allow a selection from a list. One could also do a combination (eg choose your infernal background and get a random ability from a specific set).

    I couldn't say exactly how difficult it would be to do it professional-like, but the 'guts' seem to be there.

    * at some point you'll run out of good, implementable ideas of course
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 197
    Kanaric said:

    MonoCanalla said:

    BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why not bring the sub races of IWD2 to IWD:EE? I hope the lack of appropriate portraits is not the problem. I'd draw them myself.

    Because they re not 2e ADND races?
    Oh, dear. :) You young folk, who know nothing of what gaming was in the last century.

    All of the races in IWD2 originated in AD&D 2nd edition.
    Additionally, both the Aasimars and Tieflings from AD&D require to *roll* their racial abilities on various tables (unlike their 3e/4e/5e counterparts). Needless to say this wouldn't bode well in any infinity game. It's more likely that anyone who tries their hands on this will suffer from chronic headaches.
    Ah, again, the folly of youth. This is not true either. The original presentation of the Tiefling in the core Planescape boxed set had a standard set of racial abilities. It was only with the publication of the Planewalker's Handbook that an expanded (and entirely optional) table of variant Tiefling abilities was introduced.

    Similarly, the Aasimar (who first saw publication in the Planewalker's Handbook as a playable race) was originally presented with a standard set of abilities. The expanded table of variant abiliites for Aasimar was not introduced until the publication of Warriors of Heaven (which was not even part of the core Planescape publishing line).
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 197
    Actually, this is not a bad idea at all. Obviously, because of the difference in rulesets, you couldn't port them over as they are. But the idea of implementing new races (or even subraces) is not altogether a bad one, nor is it necessarily beyond the scope of what's possible in the Enhanced Editions (since it would really not require any additional art to accomplish).
    In fact, adding sub-races has been something that's been discussed on these forums and elsewhere in the IE community for a very long time -- I don't keep up with modding, but I'm sure that there's at least one, if not several, mods floating around out there that implement something resembling adding a sub-race option to IE character creation.

    Let's consider each race/subrace:

    Aasimar/Tieflings: For reasons that could only amount to pandering/fan service, modern D&D has taken these two fairly exotic races, which should rightly be native to the Planescape setting (and should be exceedingly rare on any Prime Material world), and has made them as common as dwarves and elves. We can leave the "should we?" question for another thread; but, accepting that the idea of adding these races to the Infinity Engine would be sort of neat, they could be very easily added in. The precedent is there: Haer'Dalis is a Tiefling. Just make his in-game race playable and you'd be set to go. Add in Aasimar as well, if you felt so inclined.
    Your standard Tiefling takes adjustments of -1 to Str and Wis, and +1 to Int and Cha. Tieflings could choose to advance as Fighters, Wizards, Clerics, Thieves and Bards (originally, the Planescape Tiefling couldn't be a Bard, but I've seen so many Tiefling Bard NPCs in published sources [to say nothing of Haer'Dalis himself] that I regularly overlook this restriction when I play 2nd ed) and can multi-class as Fighter-Mages, Fighter-Clerics, Fighter-Thieves, Mage-Thieves and Cleric-Thieves. (possibility: add Sorcerer to their list of available classes?)
    Your standard Aasimar takes adjustments of +1 Str and Wis, and -2 Con. They could advance as Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Mages, Clerics, Druids, Thieves and Bards, and multi-class as Fighter-Clerics, Fighter-Mages, Ranger-Clerics, Cleric-Mages and Mage-Thieves. (note: tabletop Aasimar can also multi-class as Fighter-Bards, Ranger-Mages, Mage-Bards and Cleric-Bards, but these are not supported in Baldur's Gate unless something is changed)

    Dwarves: Both Shield Dwarves and Gold Dwarves are canon Forgotten Realms subraces of Dwarf; there's no reason why these races couldn't be added as "sub-races," even though this might be a largely cosmetic distinction.
    Duergar may be a little trickier, since they're usually evil, and since you encounter many of them in the Underdark sequences of BG2. (obviously this does not apply to IWD)

    Elves: IWD2 is a little silly in that it sort of ignores one of the major subraces of Faerünian elves. The sub-races that ought to be on offer would be: Gold Elves, Moon Elves and Wild Elves.
    The two that would be trickier to implement would be Drow Elves and Avariel, the former because obviously (despite the Drow fandom out there, making your protagonists into Drow would be problematic at best), and the latter because... well, also obviously. Wings. (you'd need to modify the sprites to make Avariel)

    Gnomes: The two main subraces of Gnome are Rock and Forest Gnomes. A Forest Gnome might be an interesting pick if you gave them the ability to play as Druids instead of Clerics.
    The Deep Gnome, however, presents some balance issues (why play a Rock or Forest Gnome, when you could play a nearly-identical race that also has spell-like abilities?).

    Halflings: Okay, I don't know what the people who made IWD2 were smoking, but "Strongheart" and "Ghostwise" halflings aren't actually a thing. The three halfling subraces in D&D are Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellows.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    They can be mages, what school specializations are they limited to.

    I can never find anything on the schools that uncommon races with access to mage can choose.
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    I wouldn't object to sub-races but I wouldn't be overly excited for them either. While I do enjoy some of the flavour I often find it only makes it more difficult for me to settle on a party. I'm very bad at settling. :/
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Sixheadeddog said:

    Kanaric said:

    MonoCanalla said:

    BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why not bring the sub races of IWD2 to IWD:EE? I hope the lack of appropriate portraits is not the problem. I'd draw them myself.

    Because they re not 2e ADND races?
    Oh, dear. :) You young folk, who know nothing of what gaming was in the last century.

    All of the races in IWD2 originated in AD&D 2nd edition.
    Additionally, both the Aasimars and Tieflings from AD&D require to *roll* their racial abilities on various tables (unlike their 3e/4e/5e counterparts). Needless to say this wouldn't bode well in any infinity game. It's more likely that anyone who tries their hands on this will suffer from chronic headaches.
    Ah, again, the folly of youth. This is not true either. The original presentation of the Tiefling in the core Planescape boxed set had a standard set of racial abilities. It was only with the publication of the Planewalker's Handbook that an expanded (and entirely optional) table of variant Tiefling abilities was introduced.

    Similarly, the Aasimar (who first saw publication in the Planewalker's Handbook as a playable race) was originally presented with a standard set of abilities. The expanded table of variant abiliites for Aasimar was not introduced until the publication of Warriors of Heaven (which was not even part of the core Planescape publishing line).

    Youngsters!

    The subraces for elves and halfings (apart from ghostwise) originate in the 1st edition!
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 197
    The_New_Romance said:

    Fardragon said:

    Sixheadeddog said:

    Kanaric said:

    MonoCanalla said:

    BG:EE brought the new sub race from BG2: the half Orc. Why not bring the sub races of IWD2 to IWD:EE? I hope the lack of appropriate portraits is not the problem. I'd draw them myself.

    Because they re not 2e ADND races?
    Oh, dear. :) You young folk, who know nothing of what gaming was in the last century.

    All of the races in IWD2 originated in AD&D 2nd edition.
    Additionally, both the Aasimars and Tieflings from AD&D require to *roll* their racial abilities on various tables (unlike their 3e/4e/5e counterparts). Needless to say this wouldn't bode well in any infinity game. It's more likely that anyone who tries their hands on this will suffer from chronic headaches.
    Ah, again, the folly of youth. This is not true either. The original presentation of the Tiefling in the core Planescape boxed set had a standard set of racial abilities. It was only with the publication of the Planewalker's Handbook that an expanded (and entirely optional) table of variant Tiefling abilities was introduced.

    Similarly, the Aasimar (who first saw publication in the Planewalker's Handbook as a playable race) was originally presented with a standard set of abilities. The expanded table of variant abiliites for Aasimar was not introduced until the publication of Warriors of Heaven (which was not even part of the core Planescape publishing line).
    Youngsters!

    The subraces for elves and halfings (apart from ghostwise) originate in the 1st edition!
    Psshh. Everything was Chainmail once! We shouldn't even talk about those dungeons and them dragons. Chainmail's the name! And Greyhawk! I don't even see what this forgotten thingamajig is and why it isn't just being kept forgotten.


    HEY! HEY YOU, HOOLIGAN! GET OFF MY LAWN!! DON'T MAKE ME GET THE SWITCH!!
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Dazzu said:

    They can be mages, what school specializations are they limited to.

    I can never find anything on the schools that uncommon races with access to mage can choose.

    My question was never answered: if I were to click mage as one of the off-choice races that get them what specialist options would pop up?
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Dazzu said:



    My question was never answered: if I were to click mage as one of the off-choice races that get them what specialist options would pop up?

    I would hope "all of them."

    Then again, a halfling, half-orc, or dwarf being completely unable to be a wizard utterly baffles me, so maybe I'm not the target audience.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited September 2014
    Schneidend said:

    Dazzu said:



    My question was never answered: if I were to click mage as one of the off-choice races that get them what specialist options would pop up?

    I would hope "all of them."

    Then again, a halfling, half-orc, or dwarf being completely unable to be a wizard utterly baffles me, so maybe I'm not the target audience.
    Dwarves where fundamentally unmagical until 3rd edition. That's why they got the saving throw bonus against magic. Half Orcs don't normally have access to the education required to become wizards. Of course, exceptions are possible at DM's discretion.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    Dwarves where fundamentally unmagical until 3rd edition. That's why they got the saving throw bonus against magic. Half Orcs don't normally have access to the education required to become wizards. Of course, exceptions are possible at DM's discretion.

    Damn fundamentally unmagical dwarves, casting divine spells in defiance of nature! Also, gnomes can be Illusionists, arguably one of the most kickass of specialists, despite their bonus to saving throws against spells. Also, accursed half-orcs that grow up in human civilization, trying to get into our wizard academies with their adequate test scores! It's as if they can roll a 17 Intelligence score just like anybody else!

    So, yeah, have I mentioned that 2E was dumb lately?
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Schneidend said:

    Fardragon said:



    Dwarves where fundamentally unmagical until 3rd edition. That's why they got the saving throw bonus against magic. Half Orcs don't normally have access to the education required to become wizards. Of course, exceptions are possible at DM's discretion.

    Damn fundamentally unmagical dwarves, casting divine spells in defiance of nature! Also, gnomes can be Illusionists, arguably one of the most kickass of specialists, despite their bonus to saving throws against spells. Also, accursed half-orcs that grow up in human civilization, trying to get into our wizard academies with their adequate test scores! It's as if they can roll a 17 Intelligence score just like anybody else!

    So, yeah, have I mentioned that 2E was dumb lately?
    Divine magic is different to arcane magic. Gnomes get a saving throw bonus because they are gnomes. The vast majority of half orcs are raised by orc tribes, in slave pits, or rejected by human society.

    Damn homogenised, politically correct, we-can't-have-racial-predudice-in-fantasy-land 3-5E.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    And I *still* demand the inclusion of the Witch Doctor kit, for Half-Orcs only! While they are limited to a single school of magic, this kit allows our green friends to wield both arcane and divine spells.

    That would be all.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Racial prejudice is fine and dandy, but you try telling a half-orc he can't pick up a book on wizardry if he's set on doing it. That's a good way to get hit, probably with a book! Besides, the PCs aren't the "vast majority" of anything simply by virtue of being crazy enough to crawl down lightless holes in search of treasure. And, as with any instance of societal bias against race/species/ethnicity, there will always be the forward-thinking NPCs who ignore those restrictions and admit the half-orc to Bard college or induct the halfling into that Paladin order.

    For every Ulraunt, there's a Tethtoril or Firebead.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Schneidend said:

    Racial prejudice is fine and dandy, but you try telling a half-orc he can't pick up a book on wizardry if he's set on doing it. That's a good way to get hit, probably with a book! Besides, the PCs aren't the "vast majority" of anything simply by virtue of being crazy enough to crawl down lightless holes in search of treasure. And, as with any instance of societal bias against race/species/ethnicity, there will always be the forward-thinking NPCs who ignore those restrictions and admit the half-orc to Bard college or induct the halfling into that Paladin order.

    For every Ulraunt, there's a Tethtoril or Firebead.

    That's where DM descresion comes in. But given my experience of players, they are all so keen to be special snowflakes that it can quickly get ridiculous unless you keep a lid on things. You need at least some normal people in the party!

    A half orc can pick up a book of wizardry if he wants, but it won't do him any good until he learns to read.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    That's where DM descresion comes in. But given my experience of players, they are all so keen to be special snowflakes that it can quickly get ridiculous unless you keep a lid on things. You need at least some normal people in the party!

    A half orc can pick up a book of wizardry if he wants, but it won't do him any good until he learns to read.

    Again, the PCs are, by virtue of being PCs, already special snowflakes. They're adventurers, pick pockets, explorers, assassins, treasure hunters, basically all of the most dangerous lines of work imaginable. The annoying types that want to be the most rarest, tragic of Sues does that with their backstory and have themselves be from the fantasy equivalent of Krypton.

    And, seeing as most settings have lots of cosmopolitan cities, the half-orc's not really any less likely to learn to read than another race of the same social class. Also, like I said earlier, he rolled or bought a 16+ Intelligence.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Personally, I just don't see why it's the game's place to tell me I can't be a special snowflake if I want to be. I DM might feel the need to prevent players from doing that if it's running rampant, but a single-player video game has no business making that judgment. Nor, for that matter, does a PnP rules set. Racial restrictions should be optional, to be implemented if-and-only-if the DM finds them necessary, unless there is a damn good reason why the combination in question is totally impossible (dwarves and wizardry is kind of acceptable on these grounds, imo, but dwarves and paladinness not so much).
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