Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details. Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition Official Soundtrack is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Sub races...

2

Comments

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 3,686

    Fardragon said:



    That's where DM descresion comes in. But given my experience of players, they are all so keen to be special snowflakes that it can quickly get ridiculous unless you keep a lid on things. You need at least some normal people in the party!

    A half orc can pick up a book of wizardry if he wants, but it won't do him any good until he learns to read.

    Again, the PCs are, by virtue of being PCs, already special snowflakes. They're adventurers, pick pockets, explorers, assassins, treasure hunters, basically all of the most dangerous lines of work imaginable. The annoying types that want to be the most rarest, tragic of Sues does that with their backstory and have themselves be from the fantasy equivalent of Krypton.

    And, seeing as most settings have lots of cosmopolitan cities, the half-orc's not really any less likely to learn to read than another race of the same social class. Also, like I said earlier, he rolled or bought a 16+ Intelligence.
    As I said earlier, prior to the political correctness and 3E, cosmopolitan half orcs had no social class. The only way they could live in a city at all was as property. It wouldn't matter if they did have 16+ intelligence when anyone who tried to educate one would have found themselves facing a lynch mob along with their student. Yes, fantasy land was much more like the real world back then, before it became sanitised.
    Klorox
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    As I said earlier, prior to the political correctness and 3E, cosmopolitan half orcs had no social class. The only way they could live in a city at all was as property. It wouldn't matter if they did have 16+ intelligence when anyone who tried to educate one would have found themselves facing a lynch mob along with their student. Yes, fantasy land was much more like the real world back then, before it became sanitised.

    And I remain unconvinced that political correctness has anything to do with it. These settings existed before 3E, and many of the typical starting points of an adventure haven't radically changed since that time. Baldur's Gate, Amn, and Waterdeep don't have slave populations. They have serfs, and while a half-orc serf isn't going to be as common as a human serf, he isn't going to be snatched up and clasped in irons for being half-orc, or killed on sight when turning in an application for the Bard college. Even if he would, the racial restrictions on dwarves and halflings are still nonsensical because they don't face the same prejudices. But, please, by all means, show me the handbook that states half-orcs are legally made slaves in free city-states like Baldur's Gate.

    And, hell, what about Dark Sun, or Planescape, as long as we're talking setting? They're 2E. The former doesn't have half-orcs, granted, but it has virtual equivalents, including the half-dwarf muls that are in fact bred to be slaves, and yet they can be wizards. A half-orc Wizard or a halfling Monk would be a drop in the bucket in Sigil, City of Doors and Weird Shit.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    Dee said:

    My 5e half-orc paladin/necromancer wants nothing to do with this conversation.

    Wait, so specialist schools are back?
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,382
    @Schneidend - Please don't start the same discussions over and over again. If you want to, at least don't derail other people's threads to do it.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    scriver said:

    @Schneidend - Please don't start the same discussions over and over again. If you want to, at least don't derail other people's threads to do it.

    It's not a derailment, since the thread is about sub-races in IE games, and I didn't even start this line of discussion.
    jackjackKlorox
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 1,975
    edited September 2014
    Jarrakul said:

    Personally, I just don't see why it's the game's place to tell me I can't be a special snowflake if I want to be. I DM might feel the need to prevent players from doing that if it's running rampant, but a single-player video game has no business making that judgment. Nor, for that matter, does a PnP rules set. Racial restrictions should be optional, to be implemented if-and-only-if the DM finds them necessary, unless there is a damn good reason why the combination in question is totally impossible (dwarves and wizardry is kind of acceptable on these grounds, imo, but dwarves and paladinness not so much).

    Agreed. I'm still annoyed that you can't mod Gnomes to be non-illusionsists.

    Minus the dwarf part. I like my dwarven wizards thank you very much!
    SchneidendRAM021
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 186

    Fardragon said:



    Dwarves where fundamentally unmagical until 3rd edition. That's why they got the saving throw bonus against magic. Half Orcs don't normally have access to the education required to become wizards. Of course, exceptions are possible at DM's discretion.

    Damn fundamentally unmagical dwarves, casting divine spells in defiance of nature! Also, gnomes can be Illusionists, arguably one of the most kickass of specialists, despite their bonus to saving throws against spells. Also, accursed half-orcs that grow up in human civilization, trying to get into our wizard academies with their adequate test scores! It's as if they can roll a 17 Intelligence score just like anybody else!

    So, yeah, have I mentioned that 2E was dumb lately?


    Halflings: Okay, I don't know what the people who made IWD2 were smoking, but "Strongheart" and "Ghostwise" halflings aren't actually a thing. The three halfling subraces in D&D are Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellows.

    Except that IWD2 is based in the Forgotten Realms...and the three subraces of halflings in the Realms are Lightfoot, Strongheart, and Ghostwise.
    Oh, right. How could I have missed that Forgotten Realms part! Especially having played both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale and taken note of the various Forgotten Realms-based settings like the Sword Coast, Amn, and the Spine of the World Mountains...

    Hmm. Let me quick check my library of Forgotten Realms game materials... AHA, here it is, Demihumans of the Realms. Page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect... page eight... Hairfeet (Luiren) Halflings, Stout Halflings, Tallfellow Halflings... Gosh, no mention of Strongheart or Lightfoot or Ghostwise halflings! Curious.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    Fardragon said:



    Dwarves where fundamentally unmagical until 3rd edition. That's why they got the saving throw bonus against magic. Half Orcs don't normally have access to the education required to become wizards. Of course, exceptions are possible at DM's discretion.

    Damn fundamentally unmagical dwarves, casting divine spells in defiance of nature! Also, gnomes can be Illusionists, arguably one of the most kickass of specialists, despite their bonus to saving throws against spells. Also, accursed half-orcs that grow up in human civilization, trying to get into our wizard academies with their adequate test scores! It's as if they can roll a 17 Intelligence score just like anybody else!

    So, yeah, have I mentioned that 2E was dumb lately?


    Halflings: Okay, I don't know what the people who made IWD2 were smoking, but "Strongheart" and "Ghostwise" halflings aren't actually a thing. The three halfling subraces in D&D are Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellows.

    Except that IWD2 is based in the Forgotten Realms...and the three subraces of halflings in the Realms are Lightfoot, Strongheart, and Ghostwise.
    Oh, right. How could I have missed that Forgotten Realms part! Especially having played both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale and taken note of the various Forgotten Realms-based settings like the Sword Coast, Amn, and the Spine of the World Mountains...

    Hmm. Let me quick check my library of Forgotten Realms game materials... AHA, here it is, Demihumans of the Realms. Page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect... page eight... Hairfeet (Luiren) Halflings, Stout Halflings, Tallfellow Halflings... Gosh, no mention of Strongheart or Lightfoot or Ghostwise halflings! Curious.
    Did you mean to quote my post about half-orc, halfling, and dwarf racial restrictions, and then not say anything about it?

    In any case, here:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoot_halfling
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostwise_halfling
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Strongheart_halfling
    jackjackelminster
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 3,686

    Fardragon said:



    As I said earlier, prior to the political correctness and 3E, cosmopolitan half orcs had no social class. The only way they could live in a city at all was as property. It wouldn't matter if they did have 16+ intelligence when anyone who tried to educate one would have found themselves facing a lynch mob along with their student. Yes, fantasy land was much more like the real world back then, before it became sanitised.

    And I remain unconvinced that political correctness has anything to do with it. These settings existed before 3E, and many of the typical starting points of an adventure haven't radically changed since that time. Baldur's Gate, Amn, and Waterdeep don't have slave populations. They have serfs, and while a half-orc serf isn't going to be as common as a human serf, he isn't going to be snatched up and clasped in irons for being half-orc, or killed on sight when turning in an application for the Bard college. Even if he would, the racial restrictions on dwarves and halflings are still nonsensical because they don't face the same prejudices. But, please, by all means, show me the handbook that states half-orcs are legally made slaves in free city-states like Baldur's Gate.

    And, hell, what about Dark Sun, or Planescape, as long as we're talking setting? They're 2E. The former doesn't have half-orcs, granted, but it has virtual equivalents, including the half-dwarf muls that are in fact bred to be slaves, and yet they can be wizards. A half-orc Wizard or a halfling Monk would be a drop in the bucket in Sigil, City of Doors and Weird Shit.
    All the campaign settings got a major rewrite, and yes, some of the political correctness set in during, rather than after 2nd edition. But a half orcs could generally expect the same treatment as drow, even in cities where slavery was outlawed - lynching.

    As for dwarves, it is one of the few things I like about Dragon Age. They have the anti-magical nature of dwarves, explained by a lack of a connection to The Fade. I like that races are different, not just short humans with beards.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,382
    edited September 2014
    Yeah, those are the names since at least 3rd Ed. ID2 is 3rd Ed. You're looking up the wrong source material.

    Edit: this was regarding the halfling subrace names discussion.
    Post edited by scriver on
    elminsterjackjack
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,382
    @Fardragon - I'm not sure you understand what political correctness means. Changing half-orcs from "lynched on sight" to "tolerated outcasts" isn't "politic correctness" by any means, and neither is allowing them - or other races - to be wizards.
    elminster
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 3,686
    scriver said:

    @Fardragon - I'm not sure you understand what political correctness means. Changing half-orcs from "lynched on sight" to "tolerated outcasts" isn't "politic correctness" by any means, and neither is allowing them - or other races - to be wizards.

    "Political Correctness" is a loaded term, that probably doesn't belong in a balanced discussion.

    It is perhaps fairer to say that source material, such as campaign settings, changed to reflect the prevailing attitudes of the times when it was written. There must be a Sociology PhD thesis in there somewhere.

    1st Edition written in the 70s, a time when casual racism and sexism where the accepted norm, and homosexuality was, to a greater or lesser extent, still illegal. The source books (Greyhawk and Waterdeep) reflected a low magic, human-centric world, very much ripped off from Tolkien's Middle Earth. Even an elf would be an unusual sight in a major city. In the lower magic Greyhawk, you would be pushed to find a wizard. The rules where designed to promote a human-centric world by "punishing" the play of other races with level restrictions.

    2nd edition came in in the 80s. A time of rapid changes in society, and also a time of huge expansion in the popularity of PnP DnD. The rate at which new material was produced increased rapidly, as well as the number and range of authors involved. The publishers became subject to high levels of public scrutiny. This lead to source material moving away from traditional fantasy settings, and incorporating more material from other genres - science fiction and horror. The rules still contained much that was left over from 1st edition, and players would often mix 1st and 2nd edition material.

    By the time of the 3rd edition, the societal changes of the 80s and early 90s had become firmly established, and where embedded in the new source material and rules. This time the main changes where away from PnP and towards the increasing dominance of online gaming, which lead to 4th edition firmly embracing MMO tropes.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,385
    edited September 2014
    Fardragon said:

    Youngsters!

    The subraces for elves and halfings (apart from ghostwise) originate in the 1st edition!

    And Grey Elves always reminded me of dark-haired Ñoldorin Elves so they're probably all derived from contemporary fictional works.

    Oh. Let me pick the thread up and put it back on its rails.
    Hrrrgh.
    There we go!
    FardragonNonnahswriterJuliusBorisov
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 3,911
    Elves, Halflings... they *all* look out of proportion to me.
    Give me an Genasi any day of the week and I'll be satisfied. Especially if that's an Para-Elemental Ooze Genasi! :)
    jackjackNimranJuliusBorisov
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 3,656
    The only time they don't look out of proportion is when they're inside you.
    KamigoroshijackjackJuliusBorisovrufus_hobart
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607

    Halflings: Okay, I don't know what the people who made IWD2 were smoking, but "Strongheart" and "Ghostwise" halflings aren't actually a thing. The three halfling subraces in D&D are Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellows.

    In Forgotten Realms the subraces of Halflings are Strongheart, Lightfoot, and Ghostwise. They were smoking something that let them read the subrace entry for Halfling, apparently. :)
    jackjackJuliusBorisovRAM021
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    All the campaign settings got a major rewrite, and yes, some of the political correctness set in during, rather than after 2nd edition. But a half orcs could generally expect the same treatment as drow, even in cities where slavery was outlawed - lynching.

    As for dwarves, it is one of the few things I like about Dragon Age. They have the anti-magical nature of dwarves, explained by a lack of a connection to The Fade. I like that races are different, not just short humans with beards.

    I do like the dwarf restriction in Dragon Age. It makes perfect sense based on an in-lore reason that isn't contradicted by another short race that has a similar ability, as per 2E.

    Luckily, though, races like dwarf and human already are different, by virtue of racial abilities like multi-classing vs. dual-classing, saving throw bonuses, a unique kit (Dwarven Defender), and completely different cultures!
    Jarrakul

  • Hmm. Let me quick check my library of Forgotten Realms game materials... AHA, here it is, Demihumans of the Realms. Page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect... page eight... Hairfeet (Luiren) Halflings, Stout Halflings, Tallfellow Halflings... Gosh, no mention of Strongheart or Lightfoot or Ghostwise halflings! Curious.

    I did not mean to sound snarky, if I did. I was hopnestly trying to be informative but did not realize 2e material used core D&D subraces at that time. so that makes the lightfoot, strongheart, and ghostwise 3e-isms, as all 3e realms suppliments state them as such. But considering IWD2 is a 3e game than everything is as it should be.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 3,686

    Fardragon said:



    All the campaign settings got a major rewrite, and yes, some of the political correctness set in during, rather than after 2nd edition. But a half orcs could generally expect the same treatment as drow, even in cities where slavery was outlawed - lynching.

    As for dwarves, it is one of the few things I like about Dragon Age. They have the anti-magical nature of dwarves, explained by a lack of a connection to The Fade. I like that races are different, not just short humans with beards.

    I do like the dwarf restriction in Dragon Age. It makes perfect sense based on an in-lore reason that isn't contradicted by another short race that has a similar ability, as per 2E.

    Luckily, though, races like dwarf and human already are different, by virtue of racial abilities like multi-classing vs. dual-classing, saving throw bonuses, a unique kit (Dwarven Defender), and completely different cultures!
    Actually, the dual/multi class thing is a difference I never thought made sense. But 3rd edition removes that difference and neuters the saving throw benefit.

    As for Dwarven Defender, why can my raised-by-dwarves half orc have that kit?!! :p
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 3,686


    Hmm. Let me quick check my library of Forgotten Realms game materials... AHA, here it is, Demihumans of the Realms. Page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect... page eight... Hairfeet (Luiren) Halflings, Stout Halflings, Tallfellow Halflings... Gosh, no mention of Strongheart or Lightfoot or Ghostwise halflings! Curious.

    I did not mean to sound snarky, if I did. I was hopnestly trying to be informative but did not realize 2e material used core D&D subraces at that time. so that makes the lightfoot, strongheart, and ghostwise 3e-isms, as all 3e realms suppliments state them as such. But considering IWD2 is a 3e game than everything is as it should be.
    Hairfeet, Stout and Tallfellow are in my 1st edition DMG, but I suspect they where felt to be too close to Tolkien (Hairfoot, Stour, Fallowhide). I think they may still be the names in the Greyhawk setting though. The 3rd (and 1st) edition stuff that doesn't specify "Forgotten Realms" defaults to Greyhawk. There was an attempt to make that the main setting, and downgrade the Realms, when 3rd edition was brought in. I believe it proved unpopular, probably because FR has a better selection of novels and computer games.

    Ghostwise is worthy of note as an original creation rather than a Tolkien knock-off.
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 911
    edited September 2014
    In 2nd edition, there was a weird unbalance between humans and demihumans (yes, there was a title that referred to all humanoid races except humans).

    Demihumans received various racial bonuses, humans did not. If demihumans had the freedom in classes that humans did, playing a human would always mean you were gimping yourself. Might still play a human for roleplaying reasons, but you would be needlessly punished for that.

    So to counter that, demihumans received a limited amount of classes they could play, and could only advance to certain levels. This was also to solve the problem that if the demihumans lived like forever, why weren't they all epic level?

    Of course, it was completely arbitrary. If it was a low-level campaign, then the level cap wasn't an issue, and if you wanted to play a class that was accessible by one of the races, then you still had no reason not to pick that race over a human. And if the campaign turned out to be much longer than initially expected, then you could potentially find yourself screwed over big time by running into the level cap, and having no way to progress any further. So the balance there was either non-existing or completely out of bound.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    In 3.0/3.5, the human race actually receives racial abilities, and every race can play every base class. There are of course "norms", and the PHB explains how likely it is that certain races would pursue certain classes, and of course some races just aren't good at certain classes (for example, the half-orc's -2 penalty to intelligence doesn't help when rolling a wizard), but if you want to play a race-class combination, you can.

    Prestige classes are a little odd. I dare say they failed to achieve there what they planned with them. They were designed to be special organizations in game. It was not intended that you were to pursue specific prestige classes, but that if you joined certain orders, you could then take a few levels in that prestige class. It didn't really hold up, and unless you have a strict DM, they simply became additional player options.

    The thing is, if you can quantify it, you can always go around the prestige class restrictions by explaining to your DM how your character would fit in the organization/prestige class, and be convincing enough. A computer game can't really be convinced like that. They either have to stick to the rules, or toss things wide open, the latter of which makes prestige classes lose their identity, so the former is a wise choice.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I'm not sure if they actively wanted to push the Greyhawk setting, or simply needed to use one setting for base material, and wanted to keep everything in the Forgotten Realms setting exotic to Forgotten Realms games. Whichever setting was used in the base material would lose some of it's identity, as it would become the norm instead of it's own little snowflake.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Standard playable races in Forgotten Reams 3.0/3.5:

    - Human (standard).

    - Half-orcs (standard).

    - Half-elves (standard).
    - Half-drow.

    - Moon Elves (standard).
    - Sun Elves.
    - Wild Elves.
    - Wood Elves.
    - Drow (+2 LA).

    - Shield Dwarf (standard).
    - Gold Dwarf.
    - Duergar (+2 LA).

    - Rock Gnome (standard).
    - Svirfneblin (+3 LA).

    - Lightfoot Halflings (standard).
    - Strongheart Halflings.
    - Ghostwise Halflings.

    - Aasimar (+1 LA).
    - Tieflings (+1 LA).

    - Air Genasi (+1 LA).
    - Earth Genasi (+1 LA).
    - Fire Genasi (+1 LA).
    - Water Genasi (+1 LA).

    Standard races are the races statistically identical to the PHB races, while the other races deviate from those. Drow, Duergar and Svirfneblin cost 2, 2, and 3 levels each. If you play a Drow or Duergar, you'll always be 2 levels lower than if you would play another race (something not really possible to implement in 2nd edition, as there's no single character level, but only individual class levels).
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    As for adding subraces, would this add anything. If I played a gold dwarf, it would restrict my dexterity instead of my charisma. Would I see any in-game effects relate to that? If not, ain't it just another player option to make yourself a tiny bit stronger?

    It still wouldn't be bad to have them, but based on the amount of work they'd demand, they might not be worth it.
    Post edited by Thels on
    Jarrakul
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 3,911
    @Thels Can't forget about the LA +2 Inugaakalikurit, a.k.a. Arctic dwarves, which date back to AD&D second edition's The Great Glacier sourcebook now can we? Especially since IWD:EE is right up the corner. ;)

    Also interesting of note are Forgotten Realm's Urdunnir dwarves that possess a whopping LA +4. Those stony guys are also old timers, being introduced in AD&D second edition's Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three. Walking through solid stone is such a nifty ability.
    jackjackKlorox
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 911
    There are zillions of races out there if you keep looking. It wasn't my goal to include every race ever worked out as a playable race, but only include the races listed in the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting/3.5 edition Player's Guide to Faerun. Those are the standard playable races.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 3,911
    I figured as much, given that both subraces I named are from 3rd edition's Races of Faerûn sourcebook. That book does after all have a much more complete list of the Forgotten Realms standard races than other sources of this setting.
    jackjack
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    Actually, the dual/multi class thing is a difference I never thought made sense. But 3rd edition removes that difference and neuters the saving throw benefit.

    As for Dwarven Defender, why can my raised-by-dwarves half orc have that kit?!! :p

    When mentioning dual-classing, I was referring to how they're plenty differentiated in 2E without the need for nonsensical class restrictions.

    Dwarves still get pretty hefty saving throw bonuses versus poison and magic in 3E, IIRC, also low-light vision, and a bonus to Dungeoneering and...Appraise, maybe? I don't remember, to be honest.

    Hey, man, if your half-orc has served in a Dwarven Defender Corps, I'm all for it.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    By the time of the 3rd edition, the societal changes of the 80s and early 90s had become firmly established, and where embedded in the new source material and rules. This time the main changes where away from PnP and towards the increasing dominance of online gaming, which lead to 4th edition firmly embracing MMO tropes.

    You've got it backwards. MMOs mostly take tropes from fantasy tabletop gaming, less so the other way around. 4E is no more "embracing MMO tropes" than is 3rd Edition, or Pathfinder. Then again, no game is developed in a vacuum, so it's possible you might be able to trace some minute aspects of a given, more recent edition to an MMO game. But, I'd appreciate the enumeration of these supposed MMO tropes in a PM.
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,481
    I thought Fardragon was correct here, though I am not a table to player, really. Do not the later editions of D&D incorporate more elaborate mechanics that suit CRPGs down to the ground, but which in a pnp context are more elegantly solved by some DM decision making?
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 3,686

    Fardragon said:



    By the time of the 3rd edition, the societal changes of the 80s and early 90s had become firmly established, and where embedded in the new source material and rules. This time the main changes where away from PnP and towards the increasing dominance of online gaming, which lead to 4th edition firmly embracing MMO tropes.

    You've got it backwards. MMOs mostly take tropes from fantasy tabletop gaming, less so the other way around. 4E is no more "embracing MMO tropes" than is 3rd Edition, or Pathfinder. Then again, no game is developed in a vacuum, so it's possible you might be able to trace some minute aspects of a given, more recent edition to an MMO game. But, I'd appreciate the enumeration of these supposed MMO tropes in a PM.
    Whilst MMOs took many concepts from PnP RPGs, they also developed some of there own. You will find many concepts in 4th edition DnD that you won't find in any earlier editions, but you will find in World of Warcraft.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    Whilst MMOs took many concepts from PnP RPGs, they also developed some of there own. You will find many concepts in 4th edition DnD that you won't find in any earlier editions, but you will find in World of Warcraft.

    Like I said, if you would kindly enumerate them in a PM so as not to derail the thread, I would love to read a comprehensive list. 4E detractors make these sort of statements fairly often, but when asked to elaborate they never seem to deliver anything concrete.
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 186

    Fardragon said:



    Dwarves where fundamentally unmagical until 3rd edition. That's why they got the saving throw bonus against magic. Half Orcs don't normally have access to the education required to become wizards. Of course, exceptions are possible at DM's discretion.

    Damn fundamentally unmagical dwarves, casting divine spells in defiance of nature! Also, gnomes can be Illusionists, arguably one of the most kickass of specialists, despite their bonus to saving throws against spells. Also, accursed half-orcs that grow up in human civilization, trying to get into our wizard academies with their adequate test scores! It's as if they can roll a 17 Intelligence score just like anybody else!

    So, yeah, have I mentioned that 2E was dumb lately?


    Halflings: Okay, I don't know what the people who made IWD2 were smoking, but "Strongheart" and "Ghostwise" halflings aren't actually a thing. The three halfling subraces in D&D are Hairfoot, Stout and Tallfellows.

    Except that IWD2 is based in the Forgotten Realms...and the three subraces of halflings in the Realms are Lightfoot, Strongheart, and Ghostwise.
    Oh, right. How could I have missed that Forgotten Realms part! Especially having played both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale and taken note of the various Forgotten Realms-based settings like the Sword Coast, Amn, and the Spine of the World Mountains...

    Hmm. Let me quick check my library of Forgotten Realms game materials... AHA, here it is, Demihumans of the Realms. Page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect, page turn sound effect... page eight... Hairfeet (Luiren) Halflings, Stout Halflings, Tallfellow Halflings... Gosh, no mention of Strongheart or Lightfoot or Ghostwise halflings! Curious.
    Did you mean to quote my post about half-orc, halfling, and dwarf racial restrictions, and then not say anything about it?

    In any case, here:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoot_halfling
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostwise_halfling
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Strongheart_halfling
    @Schneidend‌ No, I did not mean to quote your post about AD&D 2nd edition racial restrictions. But yes, I did mean to not say anything about it :) Because it genuinely does not need responding to.
2
Sign In or Register to comment.