Is IWD an RPG?
comport9
Member Posts: 13
Reason I ask is because I often hear it described as being a "dungeon crawl" with lots of combat. So I envision a Diablo loot-style game using the Infinity Engine.
I understand that there are no joinable NPC's, and I'm alright with that. But are there side-quests and branching conversations, and at least a somewhat non-linear story path? Thanks.
I understand that there are no joinable NPC's, and I'm alright with that. But are there side-quests and branching conversations, and at least a somewhat non-linear story path? Thanks.
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Yes, there are some side-quests, but they lead to an area that you're going to for the main quest. The story is really linear.
I'd say it's an action-oriented game in the AD&D 2E ruleset. This means it's not that comparable to Diablo or other "classic" ARPGs, but it's lighter on story and non-linearity than BG or other "classic" RPGs. In the end, it's the ruleset that prevents it from being an ARPG, so it sort of falls between chairs. Dungeon crawl describes it well, but dungeon crawls normally take place within RPG systems.
Diablo and its many clones are not only meant to be played solo, (one player per "toon", that is) playing solo is your only choice, unless you join a multiplayer server. There is no pausing. Everything is in real time. There are concentrated mobs of monsters for every few square inches of map, and they all respawn (except for bosses) every time you log out, and will even begin to respawn on the spot if you stand still long enough.
There is a system of waypoints or portals to help you get around to different areas, or "zones", and each zone has a recommended level range. There are usually "difficulty levels" which must be unlocked by completing the game on each level, in order; for example, "novice", "veteran", "elite"; or "normal", "nightmare", "hell"; you usually cannot play the higher ones without playing all the way through the lower ones first.
There is a certain rhythm to playing a Diablo clone rpg. Character builds focus on one or two main skills, built through assigning skill points or through drops. There may be a buff or two as part of your "rotation", either temporary or permanent. So, a typical rotation would be "encounter mob, buff, ability 1, ability 2, repeat." Some players like to create slightly more complicated rotations that add ability 3, ability 4, etc., but a good, focused build will rarely have too many developed abilities, as the more abilities you add, the weaker they all become. Ability activations work on either mana (or equivalent "juice") plus cooldown, or cooldown alone.
Loot drops in enormous quantities from every kill in every mob. Unfortunately, most of it is junk. But part of the fun of a Diablo clone arpg is sorting through all the junk to find the rare unique and legendary drops. It's like gambling with a Vegas slot machine, where every kill is a spin, and every 100 kills or so hits the jackpot. Some highly prized items may be 1 in 1,000, or even 1 in 10,000. This kind of game can cause a sort of gambling high and addiction.
Icewind Dale is absolutely *nothing* like that, not to me. The loot drops are about the same as you would find in BG, with just a little more randomization in some chests. Combat is still based on pausing and tactics. The pace is much slower than in a Diablo clone. There is more story, and there are more opportunities to roleplay with (non-party) NPC's using D&D branching dialogues.
I am in a completely different frame of mind and emotional state when I play BG or IWD than I am when I play Diablo, Sacred, or Titan Quest. The Infinity Engine and other D&D clone crpg games require a lot more concentration and have much more potential for characterization and story, BG admittedly much more than IWD. When I play a Diablo clone, I get into a state of mindless adrenaline-pumped fun.
Both kinds of game have their places in my game library. Sometimes I'm in the mood for one, sometimes I'm in the mood for the other. But IWD is firmly in the "roleplaying and detailed strategy and tactics" category, not the "mindless hack-n-slash lootfest" category.
Yeah, shit yeah its an RPG.
@BelgarathMTH
I've never played Diablo, but I know that Baldur's Gate is much less strategy-based than you make it sound. Let's see how many elements of Bg are luck-based (most of these also apply to Icewind Dale):
*Damage. For some reason, they made pretty much every source of damage in the game deal a random amount of damage. Some of these aren't a big deal, like the maximum and minimum for a dagger have a difference of 3, but a level 10 fireball deals anywhere between 3 and 60 damage (I know that rolling 10 dice makes the result likely to be in the middle, but it's very luck-based nonetheless).
*Status effect spells either do incredibly overpowered effects or do absolutely nothing at all, depending on how lucky you are. Even the level 1 spell Charm Person can easily turn around late game battles in Bg1 (have you ever tried charming Zhalimar Cloudwulfe?).
*Hit point rolls. Fortunately nowadays IE games have ways to let you get maximum hit point rolls.
*Stealing. Either you get items from a shop for free or the shopkeeper turns hostile and you lose reputation, depending on how lucky you are.
*Hiding in shadows. Sometimes you get stealthed the first time with low hiding skill, while other times it takes forever even with high skill, depending on how lucky you are.
*Setting traps. Either you set the trap or nothing happens, depending on how lucky you are.
*Rolling for stats. When you mention "gambling addiction", this comes to mind more than anything else. "Come on, roll 18:00 strength already! I know it can happen! Just one more reroll... one more... maybe one more... just one more..."
*A big one is hit rolls, but this one is justified because of how many mechanics of the game are set up. If attacks hit 100% of the time, what would be the point of Dexterity or heavy armor?
There is definitely an element of strategy in the IE games, but it isn't nearly as prominent as people make it out to be. People tend to try to justify luck-based mechanics in these games by saying, "It's not luck-based, it's strategy-based! Now go back to playing Diablo, you five-year-old scrub!" or, "That's how D&D is! Deal with it!" I'm sorry, but just because an idea has been around for a while doesn't mean it's a good idea. I do really like the IE games, which I've been playing since my childhood (I still play them), but unfortunately they aren't perfect. I have a feeling that everybody is going to respond to this post with hate messages, but that's life, I guess. I'll just have to take it all...
Definitely a role-playing game. If anything, the way I see it, it's MORE of a role-playing game than Baldur's Gate. In Baldur's Gate you make your character and have the illusion of being able to develop their personality while the game's plot tugs your player around on a string. In Icewind Dale, you truly have the freedom to develop the personality of your own characters as you see fit. It is truly "role-playing" in that sense. It's just a bit more of a blank slate than Baldur's Gate.
So… yeah.
It's refreshing for me personally. So many video games seem to feel the need to make YOU the center of the world, and I think it's pretty overrated. A great example of a game that should NOT have done that is the just-released Destiny. ("When everyone is special, no one is special" - The Incredibles LOL) Thankfully reviewers are complaining about it, so maybe we'll eventually get more games that stray from that error.
It just so happens they'd have gone unhindered if the civilized human cities saw no need to intervene... and that wouldn't have been enough if you weren't there to help them.
As for HoW
It's hard to pinpoint the difference in quality to an exact degree. That's why people argue about the differences between various crpg's. But there is a definite, easily recognizable difference in quality between the two types of fantasy crpg's, if you've played both kinds. It doesn't come down to one variable, but a combination of many variables. You know the difference when you play it, if you're experienced with both kinds of games.
There are some hybrids, like Dungeon Siege 1 and 2, that try to mix party tactics and party building with pure arpg play. Beyond Divinity tries to do a hybrid with two (and only two) toons on the board, while Divinity: Original Sin tries to give its franchise namesake a 180 degree turn from arpg back to party-based rpg.
The difference does not come down to the element of luck in the two game types. All crpg's have luck of dice rolls as an element.
I explained the elements of a Diablo clone in my first post. I can't really make it any clearer. Again, if you've never played a Diablo clone, then you can't compare the two game types, as one of them is outside your experience.
Well, IWD can be a very good actual roleplaying experience, if you actually play it that way. If you choose to ignore the settings, and refuse to immerse yourself in your characters, thats your choice. IWD has a good, solid and pretty interesting story, and plays like an overlong movie with crazy difficulty, so its very conducive to roleplaying. But if you want, you can also skip dialogue etc and probably finish the game. The battles can be pretty epic at times, so this is a fine strategy.
The game is more fun if you work out some good backstories.
Mindflayers were a rude awakening indeed.
Overall though I kinda agree, BG2 needed way more stat dependent stuff.
Now, as for IWD. Yes, it shares some stuff with BG. However, it kind of shares some stuff with Diablo as well. I could also say that it shares some stuff with NWN2 now, especially when you consider that there is an IWD Module for NWN2.
Is it possible to have IWD (an IE game) in Diablo? No, you couldn't implement the dialogs and a lot more else.
Is it possible to have Diablo in IE? Yes, just cut a lot of dialog, drop at least half of the spells, disable the party (allow only 1 character) and add more spawnpoints.
Ok, one thing is in Diablo (and clones) that isn't in the IE. The random item generator. If you like auto-generated item names instead of hand-made items, you won't like the IE.
That's fine, which they are a little alike (and a lot unalike), but in terms of being primarily focused on action and combat, Diablo and IWD share that focus. Even if they do it in very different ways, naturally.
So in other words, yup, it's a fair comparison.