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Is IWD an RPG?

13

Comments

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @iKrivetko‌
    Wow. What an inspired post. You've convinced me. [Sarcasm]

    Guys! It's cool! Thread over! Diablo isn't an RPG because this guy said so! We can all go home! [Sarcasm Intensifies]

    ElendarAristilliusCrevsDaak
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    Most games today are RPGs in some fashion....

    Schneidend
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 924
    CoryNewb said:

    Most games today are RPGs in some fashion....

    Of course! Sim City is an RPG! Solitaire is an RPG! Age of Empires is an RPG! Street Fighter is an RPG. Megaman is an RPG!

    Everything is an RPG!

    NimranCrevsDaak
  • TheSargeTheSarge Member Posts: 20
    The original IWD used essentially the same game engine and RPG framework that all the other games in the Infinity Engine series did. Those games are:

    Planescape Torment
    Baldur's Gate (and the Tales of the Sword Cost expansion pack)
    Baldur's Gate II (and the Throne of Bhall expansion pack)
    Icewind Dale (and the Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster expansion packs)
    Icewind Dale II

    Each game in the series made modifications to the game engine and GUI as the series progressed. Both the BG and IWD games are set in the same imaginary world of The Forgotten Realms, but they are set in two different parts of that world and in different centuries.

    Both the original BGI and it's underlying Infinity Engine were developed by Bioware but IWD was made by Black Isle Studios using a slightly modified version if the Infinity Engine.

    The main differencs between BG and IWD are:

    1) In IWD there are no recruitable NPCs. Instead you create you own party from scratch or from character files.
    2) There is only one town where you can shop or rent a room in IWD.
    3) Almost all of the combat and adventuring in IWD is indoors and a lot of that is underground.
    4) None of the characters or places in IWD are in BG or BGII and vicea versa.
    5) The soundtrack is completely different, not even the same composer. Many say that the IWD soundtrack is the best PC game soundtrack ever made. Others just say that isone of the best.

    BelgarathMTH
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934

    @iKrivetko‌
    Wow. What an inspired post. You've convinced me. [Sarcasm]

    Guys! It's cool! Thread over! Diablo isn't an RPG because this guy said so! We can all go home! [Sarcasm Intensifies]

    You are so good at being sarcastic.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Dazzu said:

    CoryNewb said:

    Most games today are RPGs in some fashion....

    Of course! Sim City is an RPG! Solitaire is an RPG! Age of Empires is an RPG! Street Fighter is an RPG. Megaman is an RPG!

    Everything is an RPG!
    Actually, he has a point. RPG elements have been blending into other genres quite a lot for the past 8 years or so. One need look no further than Borderlands, Mass Effect, the newer Fallout games, and Destiny.

    Nimranjackjack
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    iKrivetko said:

    @iKrivetko‌
    Wow. What an inspired post. You've convinced me. [Sarcasm]

    Guys! It's cool! Thread over! Diablo isn't an RPG because this guy said so! We can all go home! [Sarcasm Intensifies]

    You are so good at being sarcastic.
    Ah, silly me! I thought you could use the indicator, but obviously I was mistaken given how much brilliant cleverness you displayed with that first post.

    CrevsDaak
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited September 2014

    @iKrivetko‌
    Wow. What an inspired post. You've convinced me. [Sarcasm]

    Guys! It's cool! Thread over! Diablo isn't an RPG because this guy said so! We can all go home! [Sarcasm Intensifies]

    He is partially right.
    Technically, it's not an RPG because there's no "Role-Playing" to be done in the Game.
    It's more of a dungeon-crawler, hack n slash with RPG mechanics.

    The problem is with the semantics. "RPGs" nowadays are considered those games that have RPG mechanics (like levelling, stats etc) even if there's no Role-Playing involved.

    The same with JRPGs. In the majority of them, you cannot even create your character. You're basically following a story with premade characters and there's leveling and stats involved.

    The problem is also that there's no term to describe games that have RPG mechanics but no roleplaying in them.
    What do you call these? Stat-based games? Dungeon-crawlers with stats? It's just faster and more convenient to call them ARPGs and JRPGs and be done with it.

    JRPGs can be accurately categorized as stat-based/graphic-novels/adventure games, perhaps.
    And Diablo-likes as stat-based/action/dungeon-crawlers.
    But the Witcher/Mass Effect games are actual action and Role-playing games.

    BelgarathMTHCrevsDaakiKrivetko
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,810
    I repeat: Dungeon Crawlers are RPGs by virtue of having grown out of and being a subgenre of RPGs. If nothing else.

    NonnahswriterjackjackDJKajuruCrevsDaak
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited September 2014
    @Fardragon‌

    Roleplaying means that you choose and play a role and there are options to support that role.

    There's no RP in Diablo because it doesn't matter what you do or choose. You're there to kill stuff, the story or dialogues don't change.

    And there's no RP in Ghost Recon. If you pretend that you're roleplaying it doesn't mean that the game supports roleplaying or giving you choices to RP. You're simply doing missions.

    A game needs to support roleplaying options to be considered a "role-playing game". Simply pretending to RP doesn't make it an RPG.

    If I pretend to RP in Fifa, it doesn't make it a roleplaying game.
    It's the player that does the roleplaying in that case, not the game that supports it by design.

    In short:
    -If a game supports roleplaying by design, then it's a roleplaying game.
    -If the game doesn't support roleplaying, but the player chooses to do so, it's simply roleplaying, not a roleplaying game.

    You can roleplay, as a player, in any game but that doesn't make them Role-Playing Games by design.

    DJKajuruBelgarathMTHiKrivetko
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    @Fardragon‌ if we follow that logic far enough, literally everything can be a roleplaying game. You can roleplay Mario, but the game itself offers no support for this.

    More interesting question: are Zelda games RPGs? No 'rpg' mechanics whatsoever, no significant dialogue etc. There is definstely a storyline in the games from SNES onwards.

    Archaos
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited September 2014
    @DreadKhan‌

    People see a fantasy setting and say "oh it's an RPG".
    Zelda games have neither RPG mechanics nor Roleplaying options that influence anything.
    Therefore Zelda games are categorized as Action/Adventure games.

    You're adventuring and using action mechanics to do so, like killing enemies.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Archaos‌
    I disagree, vehemently. If roleplay affects how you play the game, especially in a game with RPG mechanics, then you are roleplaying in an RPG.

    I would agree that roleplaying a sports game doesn't make it an RPG. On the other hand, making choices based on roleplay that aren't optimal, such as only using certain weapons to fit your perceived flavor of a class or ("my Barbarian only uses axes"), or not using a particular item because you don't think your Paladin would approve of its powers, you are roleplaying, and the game supports that roleplay by being balanced enough that your choice is viable.

    In the end, though, I consider anything with considerable RPG mechanics an RPG by default. These are, after all, games, and under no obligation to provide extensive, personal narratives and pages of dialogue options, in the same way that D&D is still an RPG when you play in the Encounters or Dungeon Delve formats.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    DreadKhan said:

    @Fardragon‌ if we follow that logic far enough, literally everything can be a roleplaying game. You can roleplay Mario, but the game itself offers no support for this.

    More interesting question: are Zelda games RPGs? No 'rpg' mechanics whatsoever, no significant dialogue etc. There is definstely a storyline in the games from SNES onwards.

    Yes.

    Well, maybe not scrabble.

    DreadKhanjackjack
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Archaos said:

    @Fardragon‌

    Roleplaying means that you choose and play a role and there are options to support that role.

    There's no RP in Diablo because it doesn't matter what you do or choose. You're there to kill stuff, the story or dialogues don't change.

    True for IWD and BG. And most PnP DnD games in fact. Choice is an illusion, the DM actually has all the encounters planned out ahead, and knows what the outcomes will be.

    DreadKhanjackjack
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited September 2014
    @Fardragon‌
    Depends on the DM and the campaign, just like in videogames.

    I have a choice in PnP to make any character or concept I want. I also have a choice to Rp their personality any way I want. I also have a choice to kill the king, or steal from him or choose to go to a different city.

    We used to do that on our previous campaigns. The DM asked us what we want to do or where we want to go. We always had a choice. He also told us "you can turn evil if you want and do whatever you want".

    So no, he doesn't have all the encounters planned out. Some encounters were random because we took a different path. Like one time that we tried to take a shortcut and found two dire bears in our path.

    So that argument is invalid.

    @Schneidend‌

    Then if I choose to roleplay a silent assassin in Metal Gear Solid, using only CQC and silenced pistols to kill, MGS turns into an RPG?

    Like I said, you can roleplay in anything. "I'm roleplaying aliens in Fifa so I made all my players green".
    For something to be considered a roleplaying game, you need to be making roleplaying choices that affect the story or responses in some way.

    Simply saying "I will use axes on my barbarian only, in Diablo 3" doesn't mean that the game supports roleplaying choices. That doesn't effect outcomes or the story. That choice makes no difference and has no meaning.

    It's like saying that you're roleplaying in Resident Evil because you kill zombies with a knife only.
    The roleplaying elements in Resident Evil 3 appear when you choose what to do when Nemesis gets you.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    For serious though, I'd like to point out that I think the 'sciencey' gold standard is 'does the game encourage and support roleplay?' If so, I think it should be outright considered an RPG. IWD meets this standard, I don't know Diablo well enough to offer much input, but what I saw from 1 and 2 did not really encourage roleplay, but it did allow for it on a fairly primitive level. The story didnt seem up to the task, but you can make one up . Thus, Diablo in my uninformed opinion, seemed to be a very weak RPG, but solid stat-based hacknslash.

    ArchaosBelgarathMTHjamoecw
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Archaos said:

    @Fardragon‌
    Depends on the DM and the campaign, just like in videogames.

    I have a choice in PnP to make any character or concept I want. I also have a choice to Rp their personality any way I want. I also have a choice to kill the king, or steal from him or choose to go to a different city.

    We used to do that on our previous campaigns. The DM asked us what we want to do or where we want to go. We always had a choice. He also told us "you can turn evil if you want and do whatever you want".

    So no, he doesn't have all the encounters planned out. Some encounters were random because we took a different path. Like one time that we tried to take a shortcut and found two dire bears in our path.

    Sure, the DM asks you where you want to go, but he knows you well enough to know what you are going to say, or has set it up so that whatever you say the outcome is the same.

    If you try to kill the king, you will be killed. GAME OVER is an alternative ending in Dibalo as well. If you steal, then you will be caught, thrown into prison, and given the quest the DM intended you to do anyway. If you go to another city, either nothing of significance will happen until you got bored and went back to the original city, or the king of the new city will give the the same quest that the king of the previous city would have done.

    Those dire bears? You would have met them whichever path you took.

    BelgarathMTH
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Archaos said:



    @Schneidend‌

    Then if I choose to roleplay a silent assassin in Metal Gear Solid, using only CQC and silenced pistols to kill, MGS turns into an RPG?

    Like I said, you can roleplay in anything. "I'm roleplaying aliens in Fifa so I made all my players green".
    For something to be considered a roleplaying game, you need to be making roleplaying choices that affect the story or responses in some way.

    Simply saying "I will use axes on my barbarian only, in Diablo 3" doesn't mean that the game supports roleplaying choices. That doesn't effect outcomes or the story. That choice makes no difference and has no meaning.

    It's like saying that you're roleplaying in Resident Evil because you kill zombies with a knife only.
    The roleplaying elements in Resident Evil 3 appear when you choose what to do when Nemesis gets you.

    Metal Gear Solid doesn't have RPG elements, so based on what I said, no, playing that way doesn't make it an RPG. ALTHOUGH, it is interesting that you used this example, as most MGS games reward you and change the story by varying degrees if you play that way, so it fits your own definition of requiring the game to support your choices.

    I find that something like only using axes definitely does affect the game, if not the story. It affects the relative power of your character, how eager you are to jump into sidequests and explore every nook and cranny in hopes of finding a new, better axe, and how quickly you can complete the story. Taking the time explore everything in search of new axes and maybe slowing down your rampage because your weapon isn't that great any more allows you to hear more of the dialogue and flavor of the game, which can certainly engender a greater appreciation for the story of the game.

    Also, as somebody else mentioned, Diablo 3 has sidequests that only come about if you, the player, choose to engage in dialogue with the characters. You can roleplay, whether your hero cares about her allies' lives and goals, and make that decision, and it no more or less affects the story of the game than pursuing secondary content in BG&BG2, two games of which I'm sure you would never doubt the RPG qualities.

    In any case, I'd say Diablo 3 is an RPG simply because it has a bevvy of RPG mechanics. That's what it is at its core, as a game. As I said in a previous post, D&D is no less an RPG when you play with the sans roleplay formats like Dungeon Delve.

    A lot of sub-genres are being bandied about by some, like @DreadKhan‌, such as "hacknslash" and dungeon crawler. These are merely sub-genres of RPG, and therefore even if you define Diablo as such, it still falls under the umbrella of RPG.

    On the other hand, a lot of people are contending that story makes the RPG, the choices, the dialogue options...but do they? I would submit that any game genre can have entries with stories that involve player agency. Hell, Def Jam: Fight for New York has you make several decisions that affect who become your allies, enemies, and even your girlfriend, and that's a hand-to-hand fighting/wrestling game. Therefore, the narrative exists independent of the RPG, and vice verse, while the mechanics that truly make a game an RPG can blend with other genres but a game cannot be an RPG without them.

    jackjackBelgarathMTH
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,725
    edited September 2014
    DreadKhan said:

    I swear kwyjibo is definately maybe a word.

    The Internet thinks it is a Swahili word and I see no reason to doubt that at this time. Unfortunately, Zyzzyva, the official word-checking software used by NASPA (North American Scrabble Players Association, of which I am a member), does not recognize it as a word which may be used in an official Scrabble game. That's a shame, too, because at 7 letters you would pick up your 50-point bonus, not counting any double/triple letter or word squares you may have hit. The best subanagrams of that word appear to be "joky" or "koji", but as long as you can hook the "k", the "j", or the "y" on a triple letter the play would be a good one.

    SchneidendjackjackDreadKhanjamoecw
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,725
    mmmm....I love scotch. My boss won't let me have any at work, though, which is a shame.

    jackjackDreadKhan
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 924
    @Schneidend‌
    I'll see your Legends and raise you one 'X Command Mission'

    Nonnahswriter
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Dazzu said:

    @Schneidend‌
    I'll see your Legends and raise you one 'X Command Mission'

    I'll be honest, that looks kinda totally awesome.

    Nonnahswriter
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,131
    edited September 2014
    It is an RPG because it works perfectly as an AD&D dungeon crawling campaign.

    jackjackJuliusBorisovkcwise
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