What's with the Armor Class of Drizzt and Shandalar?

OlvynChuru

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that Drizzt in Bg1 has -16 AC. How does that make sense? Let's see what he has:

Twinkle gives -2 AC
His armor gives -9 AC
If he somehow had 24 Dex, that would give him -6 AC

So, that's a total of -7 AC, and that's assuming that he has 24 dexterity. I mean I get that the rest of it was given to him simply by setting his AC to a low number, but how does it make sense? I guess the rest of his armor class comes from the suit of plot armor he's secretly wearing. Even if you kill him, that suit automatically resurrects him.


Okay, now about Shandalar. I think his AC is even more ridiculous. I've never been able to hit him with anything other than a natural 20. I mean, sure he's an archmage, but since when do even archmages have such insane armor class?

DreadKhan

A Wizard did it.

DreadKhan

But seriously, it was done so you wouldnt kill them. Killing Elminster is truly painfully tedious for example... but gotta say, its not necessary as they arent plot-centric like Renal early.

WebShaman

Call it a gift from the Gods...yeah.

elminster

Technically Drizzt at the moment has lower AC than he did in the original. This is because in the original game (and the pre 1.3 version of BGEE) he had a base of -10 but he wasn't getting any bonus from the defender (the original developers must have factored this in when they gave him his base AC). Now he is getting that bonus. So he's gone from -14 to -16.

In PnP Drizzt has a base of -8 AC. His stats are found in heroes lorebook but if you can't check that then its also here.

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/drizzt-2nd.htm

Once you factor in that, his 20 dexterity, and the defender you can see where the -14 comes from. It wouldn't otherwise be obvious.

Clearly in the case of Elminster and Shandalar they wanted them to be very difficult to kill. Considering however that these are high level mages giving them extremely low AC is actually being really generous. But for the record Shandalar's AC is -24 after his dexterity bonus is factored in and Elminsters is -13.

OlvynChuru

Giving a mage ridiculous AC is a really strange way to make them difficult to kill. With Shandalar, I feel like it would've made more sense if they simply gave him spells that were even more powerful than the ones he already has, rather than making his AC absolutely stupid. I mean, when's the last time your mage had -24 AC, even in Throne of Bhaal?

I'm fine with these NPCs being extremely overpowered, but giving them much higher AC then they'd normally have with their equipment is kind of nonsensical.

elminster

OlvynChuru said:

Giving a mage ridiculous AC is a really strange way to make them difficult to kill. With Shandalar, I feel like it would've made more sense if they simply gave him spells that were even more powerful than the ones he already has, rather than making his AC absolutely stupid. I mean, when's the last time your mage had -24 AC, even in Throne of Bhaal?

I'm fine with these NPCs being extremely overpowered, but giving them much higher AC then they'd normally have with their equipment is kind of nonsensical.

He works just as he did in BG1. There were only a handful of higher level (level 8+) spells in that game (I believe Power Word: Blindness was one of them). It simply wasn't possible to give him the kind of higher level spells that he should have for his level (29) because stuff like Time Stop, Continguency, or Chain Continguency weren't programmed in. Considering however that you can never normally get to these levels in BG1 it simply wouldn't have made much sense for the original games developers to develop high level spells for the handful of high level mages you come across in the game. Especially considering that they normally aren't going to attack you unless you provoke them.

In the case of Shandalar his AC acts as a means of preventing his death prior to him teleporting away. They could have just written his script so that the first thing he does is teleport away at the first sign of danger, but they decided to let him cast a bunch of spells instead.

OlvynChuru

Well, the thing is that Shandalar talks to you on sight. If he talks to you and you decide not to go to the island because you want to fight him, then you probably knew what you were doing. I seriously doubt a new player would try and attack him without knowing that he is needed to go to the island. Or maybe you're bringing up a point that I'm just not seeing?

elminster

OlvynChuru said:

Well, the thing is that Shandalar talks to you on sight. If he talks to you and you decide not to go to the island because you want to fight him, then you probably knew what you were doing. I seriously doubt a new player would try and attack him without knowing that he is needed to go to the island. Or maybe you're bringing up a point that I'm just not seeing?

My point is that you are the one that attacks him. It wouldn't have made any sense for the games original developers to spend time making additional spells for an encounter that doesn't normally end in violence unless you specifically do something to attack him. Normally when you complete his quest he teleports away.

OlvynChuru

They kind of did, though (I think). As far as I know, Shandalar is the only person in Bg1 who casts Flesh to Stone or Globe of Invulnerability. I may be wrong.

elminster

Pretty sure Daitel (the ghost) also has Globe of Invulnerability. Same with Flesh to Stone. I think of the two he only casts Flesh to Stone though. Unlike Shandalar his dialogue actually makes him hostile on you. In any case though Globe of Invulnerability is basically just Minor Globe of Invulnerability that works on an additional spell level. Flesh to Stone is just gives a petrify effect, like you'd see with basilisks already, that comes in the form of a spell. Not that difficult to throw together (compared to level 7/8/9 spells a mage like that would have).

High AC basically just grants him almost the same thing that he would have for 4 rounds by casting Improved Mantle (which didn't exist in the original game). Its just an easier way of doing that.

SergeTroy

I'll be honest: this is the reason that I vastly prefer Bethesda games sometimes. Only a bare handful of NPCs are essential ( the kiddies don't count). If a character is in the game, there shouldn't be so much ridiculous grief for killing them. Sad to say I woul prefer an insta death script over a mage with -24 AC. And while I'd count killing Drizz't as reputation damaging (not to mention having his Conan wanna be friends chasing you down for killing the rip-off character (hate RA)) I don't think it should be impossible. Good scripting should cover his battle not the arbitraty adjustments to his ac. I could see -10 WITH dex and magical items included, along with his 4 or 5 APR. And just out of curiousity, how the heck did you come on this eyesore lacking a hunting bow?

AnonymousHero

OlvynChuru said:

They kind of did, though (I think). As far as I know, Shandalar is the only person in Bg1 who casts Flesh to Stone or Globe of Invulnerability. I may be wrong.

Interestingly, he also seems to be the only NPC (at least that I've encountered) with physical damage resistance. From a few experimental attempts using a Wand of Paralysis and pummeling him, he seems to have something like 50%-75% damage resistance. He's also immune to (at least) any fire damage, but not "magic" damage, e.g. MM, though he has 5% MR from his robe. I don't know if it's been changed in BG:EE, but for a (solo or not) character with access to wands (specifically Wand of Paralysis and Wand of Monster Summoning) he's quite killable, even before you "unlock" access to BG (the city) itself. He has very good saves, so you may have to replenish the Wand of Paralysis if he saves against all-but-one of its charges, but he will fail his save at one point or other. Then you use the Wand of Summoning, command the summoned monsters to pummel him and either a) pummel him yourself (F/M) or b) hit him with a flurry of MM. If you don't have summons, he'll probably recover in time to either kill you and/or escape. Of course, if you're non-solo, then you can just have your party members hit him with all they've got and you should be fine.

elminster

Its 80% physical damage resistance. He is also immune to fire, cold, lightning, and acid. He has a saving throw of 0 for all throws (because his robe grants him a bonus to them), but a wand of paralyzation gives a -4 penalty to someone trying to save against it. It ends up being your best bet against him.

Gotural

His AC is not that crazy, my last F/M/T ended with -28 AC at the end of BG1. What's more crazy is indeed his physical resistances.

GoodSteve

Gotural said:

His AC is not that crazy, my last F/M/T ended with -28 AC at the end of BG1. What's more crazy is indeed his physical resistances.

...How?

karnor00

elminster said:

In PnP Drizzt has a base of -8 AC. His stats are found in heroes lorebook but if you can't check that then its also here.

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/drizzt-2nd.htm

Typically when stats are listed in 2ED, they already take into account all the bonuses to reach that figure. So the -8AC figure takes into account his dexterity and armor. And for example his weapon damage is 1d8 (scimitar) +2 (specialisation) +5/3 (twinkle/icingdeath).

Of course it's still a mystery where he gets even -8AC because +4 chainmail and -4 Dex bonus only gets to -3. He'd need to be using all of his defender as defense to get to -8AC.

Not sure where he's getting 5 attacks from either - should be 3.5 by my reckoning.

elminster

Hmm well then fair enough. I suppose the original developers made the same presumption I did. There is also his physical damage resistances as well as his extremely high magic resistance (98%) that are probably out of place.

Dee

Drizzt has "Heroic" bonuses; his stats are artificially inflated to make certain that, if you do decide to go after him in BG1, it won't be just a walk in the park.

SergeTroy

I'm gonna qualify that as "villainous" bonuses, as he is clearly the equivalent lf a DMs pet NPC ("this is what you should want to grow up to be"). If only there was a 'Smite Trope' power...

Cahir

Well, if I recall correctly, canonically Shandalar is immune to electrical damage due to his many experimentations with lightning bolts. He is also 25th level mage, so for BG1 standards he is immensely powerful. He should spit 9th level spells like machine gun:)

SergeTroy

Gotural said:

His AC is not that crazy, my last F/M/T ended with -28 AC at the end of BG1. What's more crazy is indeed his physical resistances.

I'm gonna have to echo GoodSteve, even with all the best magic armor, potions and buffs, how?

elminster

Cahir said:

Well, if I recall correctly, canonically Shandalar is immune to electrical damage due to his many experimentations with lightning bolts. He is also 25th level mage, so for BG1 standards he is immensely powerful. He should spit 9th level spells like machine gun:)

Out of curiousity where is Shandalar mentioned outside of BG1? There is the similarly named lich in BG2 but as far as I know thats it.

There was talk of presumably him in an interview with Ray Muzyka many years ago.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020723190746/http://desslock.gamespot.com/features/baldursgate/scinterview-3.html

Cahir

@elminster‌ IIRC he is briefly described in Volo's Guide to Sword Coast, under Ulgoth's Beard section. There is probably mention of him in 3rd. edition sourcebooks, but I don't remember in which ones.

elminster

Yea it looks like has his own section in volo's guide as well.

JuliusBorisov

@GoodSteve‌ and @SergeTroy‌

All these weeks I've been searching an answer. And here's how a F/M/T can end with -25 AC at the end of BG1.

Potion of Defense = 0 AC
Dexterity 25 (from several potions of Mind Focusing that give +3 DEX each) = -6
Helm of Balduran = -7
Claw = - 8
Ring of Protection +2 = -10
Twinkle = -12
Large shield +2 = -15
Cloak of Balduran = - 16
Blur = -19
Improved Invisibility = -23
Protection from Evil = -25

That was quite a task, @Gotural‌ but I still don't understand where another -3 are coming from if it's a solo play

Another -2 AC can come from having a skald sing.
Another -2 AC can come from having a cleric cast Defensive Harmony.

GoodSteve

bengoshi said:

@GoodSteve‌ and @SergeTroy‌

All these weeks I've been searching an answer. And here's how a F/M/T can end with -25 AC at the end of BG1.

Potion of Defense = 0 AC
Dexterity 25 (from several potions of Mind Focusing that give +3 DEX each) = -6
Helm of Balduran = -7
Claw = - 8
Ring of Protection +2 = -10
Twinkle = -12
Large shield +2 = -15
Cloak of Balduran = - 16
Blur = -19
Improved Invisibility = -23
Protection from Evil = -25

That was quite a task, @Gotural‌ but I still don't understand where another -3 are coming from if it's a solo play

Another -2 AC can come from having a skald sing.
Another -2 AC can come from having a cleric cast Defensive Harmony.

That's impressive but fairly short-lived as it relies on many potions and spells to obtain. The way he said it seemed like this was a constant thing, or at least a frequent occurance while he was playing... otherwise the quote should be more like "While playing my solo F/M/T I could get as low as a -25 AC." To say "I had it" is kinda misleading.

That's a lot of research to try and figure that out though, @bengoshi, bravo.

Awong124

Shandalar is actually quite easy to kill with a bit of cheese. His armor class doesn't mean much when he stands paralyzed and defenseless.

Gotural

Sorry, I should have precised that I was playing with some mods. I used most of what @bengoshi‌ described, but I had some more stuff coming from mods, including a belt -3 AC which is the fusion of the differents AC belts of the game (the piercing one, etc).

My unbuffed AC was more in the -12 range.


What I meant in my previous post is that reaching a very low AC isn't that hard for a Mage like Shandalar, but his physical resistances are indeed "cheaty".