Raistlin Majere vs Elminster
Who would emerge the victor if these two legendary mages fought it out?
I imagine both are too clever to go all-out against each other directly, rather using minions/allies, etc. Plotting and planning - playing a long, protracted, chess-like game against one another.
But, when it came to crunch time, one against the other in a direct, face-to-face magical contest. Who would win out?
I imagine both are too clever to go all-out against each other directly, rather using minions/allies, etc. Plotting and planning - playing a long, protracted, chess-like game against one another.
But, when it came to crunch time, one against the other in a direct, face-to-face magical contest. Who would win out?
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Comments
I wonder does anybody have accurate stats for (height of their powers) Elminster and Raistlin? Doesn't matter which Edition, provided we can compare from the same one.
I do think, though, that the Dragonlance setting was a much lower-powered campaign world (relatively speaking) than the Realms could potentially be. Some of the Realms' denizens were ridiculously powerful (Drizzt's father for instance, was a 24th level fighter if I remember correctly - in Dragonlance, he would have severely kicked *ss, no matter the challenge).
To be honest, the two don't really compare, because although they're both D&D settings, they're both very different. It's a bit like comparing Gandalf with Dumbledore.
Raistlin is a god defeater, a confirmed fact. There is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be capable of similar in a different setting - given the time and resources, Raistlin has proved he is capable. Elminster, well, what needs to be said? We all know what he is and what he's capable of. It would be a terrible battle, were the two to go head-to-head.
Edit - by the way, I don't mean by 'terrible battle' that Raistlin would win. I mean that the battle would be literally terrible, laying waste to entire landscapes, people and such.
Dee would destroy both Elminster and Raistlin
Personally, I feel Elminster would win, simply because he might look like a fairly bumbling mage, but he pretends to be a lot worse than he is simply to throw people off. He also knows a ton of spells that nobody else does (Check out "Pages from the Mages" for some examples, with Elminster, Dalamar and Mordenkainen exchanging spells together. (later renamed to "The Wizards Three", and with Dalamar replaced occasionally by Rauthene (?), Mordenkainen's apprentice. I am guessing this was after Dragonlance went kind of Kaput as a setting.) So I would have to hand the edge to him.
It's making me consider...
Judging by the forum likes and so forth, it would appear that Elminster has quite the number of fans on here - and so he should, as he is an iconic character, a chief representative of the Realms. If not one of THE most iconic representatives.
I wonder though, how much this has to do with the popularity of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting compared to Dragon Lance?
How many people volunteering ideas on how Elminster might snatch victory away from Raistlin, for example, are as intimate with Raistlin's background, capabilities and history in the same way as they are with Elminster's?
I'm not asking to be controversial, I'm asking out of genuine interest.
Raistlin (could have), for example, killed all of the gods in his universe at the height of his powers. If Elminster came to Krynn to challenge Raistlin, he'd have a major fight on his hands. Maybe not even a fight, given that Raistlin was destroying gods at the time.
I'm only fighting Raistlin's corner at the moment because it all seems to be going Elminster's way. I do reserve the right to change my mind! (and, as you come to know me on this forum, you'll see I do this quite often!)
Anyway, have at it peeps!
El would win this though.
I appreciate what you're saying.
We have no stats in front of us. Only feats and achievements related to us from stories from books.
Raistlin was the master of past and present (whatever that means - I never quite got to the end of that), and gained access to a cursed tower (story based, but nobody else could get in - and I bet you any money, Elminster would be outside, freezing, looking for his keys/lock spell/whatever and still wouldn't get in).
Elminster has been power-gaming for 1000, 2000, 3000 (21,000 years by some accounts) years. Who cares. What can he do that Raistlin can't?
This is going out to all the Elminster fans!
In 3rd, Elminster is VERY high level, dunno about exact 2nd ed levels.
Are there 3rd Edition stats for Raistlin?
Could Elminster get into the cursed tower?
I have some stats here for Raistlin from the AD&D Dragonlance Adventures book:
Raistlin
20th-Level Human Black Robe Wizard
STR 10
INT 17
WIS 14
DEX 16
CON 10
CHR 15
THAC0: 9
AL: Chaotic Evil
HP: 44
AC: -2
I don't have a book with Elminster's stats but according to the Forgotten Realms Wiki he is
AD&D 1st Edition: Magic User Level 26
AD&D 2nd Edtion: Wizard Level 29
D&D 3.5 Edition: Fighter Level 1, Rogue Level 2, Cleric Level 3, Wizard Level 24 ,and Archmage Level 5
Human male 29th-level mage; one of
the Chosen of Mystra
ARMOR CLASS: 6 (3 w/ring)
MOVE: 12
HIT POINTS: 96
THAC0: 12
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
STR 13, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 17
Spells (7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/6):
The remainder is spoilered due to spacing. This is all taken from Heroes Lorebook (2nd edition)
As one of the Chosen of Mystra, Elminster knows and can cast virtually any spell (he is exempt
from the rule that mages of 18 Intelligence can know only
18 spells per spell level). He generally disdains conjuration and
summoning spells, but aside from that personal preference has a
knack for carrying precisely the magic he needs to deal with
whatever situation he may encounter. A typical assortment of
spells might include: 1st burning hands, charm person, color
spray, hypnotism, identify, magic missile, shield; 2nd forget, hypnotic
pattern, levitate, magic mouth, mirror image, ray of enfeeblement,
web; 3rd blink, fly, hold undead, protection from normal
missiles, secret page, slow, suggestion; 4th charm monster, confusion,
mass morph, minor globe of invulnerability, polymorph self,
Rarys mnenomic enhancer, stoneskin; 5th avoidance, Bigbys interposing
hand, dismissal, hold monster, passwall, teleport; 6th
disintegrate, inscribe*, legend lore, mass suggestion, Tensers transformation;
7th forcecage, limited wish, power word stun, prismatic
spray, spell turning, statue; 8th Bigbys clenched fist, maze,
mind blank, prismatic wall, Sertens spell immunity, symbol; 9th
Elminsters evasion*, foresight, imprisonment, meteor swarm, shape
change, worldwalk*. (See also Bonus Spells below.)
Weapons of Proficiency: dagger; dart; quarterstaff. (Although
he has used many other weapons in his life, his skills
with most of them have deteriorated through lack of practice.)
Nonweapon Proficiencies: In his hundreds of years of
life and possessing the photographic memory that he does,
Elminster can be considered to possess any proficiency common
in the campaign.
Equipment: In his tower in Shadowdale, Elminster has
such vast wealth that any mundane item he does not already
possess can simply be purchased.
Magical Items: Elminsters store of magical items is extensive.
He is known to commonly don a necklace of missiles,
a ring of protection +3, and a ring of regeneration. And he almost
never goes anywhere without taking along his personal
Elminsters eversmoking pipe*.
Combat/Tactics: Elminster has been a fighter, a thief, and
a priest (a priestess, actually) before he became a mage. However,
all the skills he picked up in those classes have been neglected
over the years and are no longer available to him.
As a mage, he fights with any magical items he has, then with
spells and his Chosen powers, and, if all else fails, hell use his
psionic abilities. (If psionics is a part of the campaign, Elminster
has 266 PSPs and access to all attack and defense modes.)
Allies/Companions: The Harpers; the other Chosen of
Mystra (especially the SIMBUL, his paramour); Lhaeo (see the
end of this entry); and good people everywhere.
Foes/Enemies: Numerous evil organizations (such as the
Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, and the Shadowmasters),
and any who would use magic to subjugate others.
Appearance: Elminster appears as a gray-bearded man of
weathered visage, gruff tone, alert, dancing eyes, and nondescript
attire. He is almost always smoking a meerschaum pipe
that is spouting some vile blue or green smoke.
Personality: A natural storyteller, Elminster is normally a
witty, clever, and very charming man. He can be imperious,
grave, and terrible, however, and furthermore is a consummate
actor. He rarely reveals the full extent of his true nature
to anyone who is not an extremely close friend. He can portray
himself as a trickster, a rake, a stern father figure, or any
other stereotype he wants to assume, depending on what he
wants to accomplish or what reaction he wants to elicit from
those around him.
Locales Frequented: Shadowdale. Elminster rarely travels
the Realms anymore unless some dire need arises. If he
leaves the vicinity of his home, hes much more likely to be
found hopping between worlds and planes of existence than
he is to be encountered in another part of Faerûn.
History: Elminsters hundreds of years of life are impossible
to summarize in a compendium such as this one, but a
brief review of the basics follows.
Archaic records attest to the fact that a son named Elminster
was born more than 1150 years ago to Elthryn, the lord
of the village of Heldon, and his wife Amrythale. His family
was killed by a Shadowmaster named Undarl, one of the
magelords of the ancient kingdom of Athalantar. Taking up
his fathers broken sword, Elminster became a brigand and a
thief at the ripe age of 12.
He soon realized that he had no taste for killing, and gave
it up when he went to become a burglar in the city of Hastarl,
the capital of Athalantar. It was here that Elminster first met
that eras Magister, the wizard who bore the mantle of Mystra
s power. When asked if he was interested in learning sorcery,
Elminster refused.
After many adventures, Elminster was visited by Mystra,
the Goddess of All Magic. She tarried with him and left the
awestruck Elminster with the message that he should learn of
magic and worship her.
Soon thereafter, while he was still a young adult, perhaps
to further widen his worldview, Elminster became Elmara,
priestess of Mystra. This change also allowed him to move within
his enemies circles without their knowledge.
After more adventures, Elmara was at last ready to become
a mage, and Elminster reappeared. In the time that followed, he learned much about magic from the sorceress Myrjala reaching the point where he could finish taking his revenge
against the evil magelords who had usurped the kingdom.
After a terrific battle, Elminster persevered and assumed
the throne of Athalantar.
However, no sooner had he gained the kingship than he
passed it one to one of his friends, Helm, a knight of Athalantar.
Elminster stated that he had wanted to avenge his
familys death, not become a monarch.
As he and Myrjala left the kingdom, the sorceress revealed
herself to be Mystra. She offered to make Elminster
one of her Chosen, and he readily accepted.
Many of Elminsters adventures following this time are undetailed,
but it is known that he visited such places as Cormanthor,
the Towers of Song, and Myth Drannor before its
fall and stayed some 20 years. For years more he traveled, and
only he (and perhaps Lhaeo) knows what transpired.
He also served as a foster parent to three other of Mystras
Chosen some 600 years ago: Syluné, Storm, and the woman
who hundreds of years later would become his paramour, the
Simbul.
It is also suspected that he had something to do with the
founding of Waterdeep, or at least with the organizing of the
citys Lords.
The next major adventures Elminster took part in for
which records exist were the events of the chaotic Time of
Troubles.
He was instrumental in forming the Rangers Three, who
aided him in recurring battles with the mysterious Shadowmasters
during this time. Elminster also took time out to defend
Shadowdale from an army of Zhentarim led by the
avatar of Bane. The avatar and Elminster did battle in the
old mages tower, and both were caught up in the spell that
Elminster had called upon to dispose of the avatar. Elminster
was originally thought to have been destroyed, but when he
later reappeared it became apparent that he had merely been
transported to another plane of existence for a time.
In his absence, the foes of good tried to rally, but the other
Chosen, the Knights of Myth Drannor, and the Rangers
Three held them at bay until he returned.
With the present crisis averted, all seemed calm, but the
Shadowmasters had other ideas. Elminster and the Rangers
Three, along with their allies, managed to frustrate and foil
the plans of this race of shapeshifters. Elminster also confronted
the overgod, Lord Ao, over his instigation of the
Time of Troubles while innocents were being killed.
As the critical moment of the Time of Troubles approached,
Mystra knew of what was to come and she shed most
of her power into another, a mortal, so that all of her essence
would not cease to exist. (This mortal was the mage Midnight,
who went on to become the new manifestation of Mystra.)
Since Elminster (among many other mages) obtained his
power from Mystra, this change left him personally powerless at a critical juncture. He recruited one of the Rangers Three, Sharantyr, and they equipped themselves from Elminsters
cache of magical items, which would still function.
The two of them were later reunited with the other two
members of the band, Itharr and Belkram, but even the
Rangers Three could not prevent Elminster from being
wounded in battle. Despite this setback, Elminster and the
Rangers, along with their allies, not only freed High Dale and
defeated Manshoon of the Zhentarim, but they also outlasted
the Time of Troubles, and Elminster regained his magic.
What Elminster is currently up to is not known, though it
is rumored that he has been meeting in some far distant plane
to discuss matters of deep importance with wise and powerful
mages of other worlds. Perhaps, in that world, some record of
these conversations exists. . . .
In any case, the Realms and all its villains are sure to hear
from the Mage of Shadowdale again.
Motivations/Goals: Elminster tries to keep as low a profile
as his numerous foes will let him, preferring to work behind
the scenes, drawing upon his centuries of life experience.
He tries to maintain a sages neutrality when he can.
Even so, he is firmly committed to the promotion of good
across the Realms. He has battled avatars before in order to
preserve the Realms, and would do so again if the need arose.
(He actually prefers to arrange some scheme so widespread
carnage doesn't erupt.)
Campaign Uses: Elminster should be used very carefully,
if at all, as a nonplayer character in a campaign. Don't allow
players and their characters to use Elminster (or any of the
other vastly powerful characters described in this book) to
solve their problems for them. Elminster (and the others)
work better when kept on the fringes of a campaign, offering
occasional advice or in Elminster's case, a snide remarks
or giving vague but not misleading clues to get the PCs going
in a particular direction.
Sources: The novels Elminster: The Making of a Mage and
the ìShadowsî trilogy. Elminster also makes cameo appearances
in numberless magazines, game products, and other
novels. Listing them all is impossible, but Elminster does play
a part in the Avatar trilogy and the Finderís Stone trilogy.
(See the source list in the back of this book for specific information
on titles and authors of the works mentioned here.)
Unique Abilities
Spell Immunity: Elminster is immune to magic missile,
ESP, fireball, Evardís black tentacles, feeblemind, death spell, finger
of death, power word blind, and imprisonment.
Bonus Spells: In addition to his normal repertoire,
Elminster can cast spider climb, vocalize*, dispel magic, whisper
blade*, ironguard*, ghostgrail*, the Simbulís synostodweomer*,
the Simbulís skeletal deliquescence*, and Elminsterís effulgent
epuration* each once per day without having to memorize
them or use any of their components.
Elminster's Tower
One of the oldest structures in Shadowdale, this nondescript
two-story tower was abandoned when Elminster moved in. He
renovated the building into its current status, detailed below.
The walls and mortar of the place are all heavily laced
with lead to prevent certain magicks and certain creatures
from entering.
On both the Astral and Ethereal planes, the tower is a
sealed cylinder with no entrances. These features prevent any
sort of planar shifting or teleporting from working within the
tower unless Elminster speaks the proper command word first.
The entire tower acts as an amulet of proof against detection
and location, and it also emits a protection from evil, 10f radius
effect at all times. A sign at the foot of the path leading to
the tower reads, "No trespassing. Violators should notify next
of kin. Have a pleasant day."
The first floor of the tower is a general study and workroom.
It has a few tables and chairs, but the most evident feature is the
stacks and stacks of papers. Of every 100 papers, 99 are nonmagical.
The magical ones may be minor variants of assorted
spells, notes in some mystic script, or a tome or collections of
long-lost spells. Many of the latter are unsafe to read (very unsafe).
The remainder of the first floor is taken up by the kitchen.
The second floor contains a single bedroom. Because
Elminster and Lhaeo seldom keep the same hours, having only
one sleeping room is not a problem. The rest of the room has
trunks of clothes (one of which contains splendid finery from
Myth Drannor), wardrobes, shelves for personal effects, and
more papers. A wizard locked trap door leads to the rooftop.
Elminster's Safehold
Little beyond the fact of its existence is known of this extradimensional
place. It's likely that it is a well-fortified structure
in its own pocket dimension. It has ample space for
spellcasting and likely contains enormous wealth, an extensive
library, a multitude of magical items, and numerous magical
servants to protect all of the above. This is Elminster's
ace in the hole; PCs should never find it on their own.
OMG!
Elminsters Effulgent
Epuration
(Abjuration)
Level: 9
Range: 10 ft./level
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 turn/level
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None
This spell calls into being a number of floating, silvery
spheresup to as many spheres as the caster has levels.
Each of these spheres has the ability to absorb a single spell,
spell-like ability, or magical effect of any offensive type.
After absorbing the spell, the sphere fades out, taking the
spell energy with it.
Offensive spells can generally be considered to be those
that inflict damage on a target or place a target under a baneful
or harmful influence. Intent and situation are as important
as spell effect for determining whether a spell is offensive
or not. As a general rule, the various walls and spheres, most
of the Bigbys hand spells, and most abjurations will not be affected
by the epuration spell. Those spells that affect an area
in which a silver sphere exists will simply not function; the
magical energy will be sucked into the sphere before the
damage is inflicted. Similarly, any spell cast within 10 feet of
a silver sphere is automatically negated.
Spells that are already in effect when the silver spheres
enter the same area are not negated. An item containing
charges of offensive magic (such as a wand of lightning) is neutralized
if a sphere is located on or in front of the item. (Expending
one charge will use up one sphere.) Otherwise, the
spheres do not affect magical items or weapons or potentially
lethal items that are not activated, such as symbols.
The caster can direct the spheres to drift at a maximum
movement rate of 60 feet per round, up to the limit of the
spells range. The spheres created from a single epuration
must move as a group; the caster cannot move them individually
or split them up, and cannot cast any other spell
during a round in which the spheres are moved. It is possible
for the caster to move and/or fight during a round in
which the spheres are moved. If the caster is slain or incapacitated,
or moves away from the spheres, they remain
hovering in the area they occupy and are still able to absorb
offensive magic.
The spheres cannot be physically moved or attacked.
They have no solid, physical presence and can pass through
magical and physical barriers without harm.
Neither the caster nor anyone else can harness the spell
energy dissipated by the spheres. Even the spell-like abilities
of powers and creatures from other planes can be affected by
the spheres, through the beings themselves may not be.
Elminster's Evasion
(Evocation)
Level: 9
Range: 0
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 1 turn + casting time of both associated spells
Area of Effect: The caster
Saving Throw: None
A customized version of the contingency spell slanted
toward the preservation of the caster, this spell will cause
under certain specific conditionsthe casters body, mind,
and spirit to travel to another location. The transfer affects
only the body and those items physically attached to it but
leaves behind any attached items weighing more than 50 lbs.
The spell brings together body, spirit, and mind, even if they
are in different places when it is triggered.
When preparing this spell, the wizard must detail six specific
conditions under which the evasion will function. When
any of these situations occurs, the spell is triggered and the
casters form is whisked away to a predefined location. This
location can be on the same plane or on any other known
plane of existence that the wizard has visited.
Also, when casting this spell, the wizard indicates two
other spells that will be activated when the wizard arrives at
the special location. These spells must be cast immediately
after the casting of the evasion is finished, although they do
not go into effect until after the evasion itself is triggered.
The material components of this spell are a pint of the
casters blood and a gem worth at least 5,000 gp. Both are
consumed in the casting of the spell. The wizard also loses
1d4 hit points that remain lost until the evasion spell is triggered,
at which point they are immediately recovered.
This spell was developed by Elminster with the intention
of taking his form to a dimensional location he calls Safehold
for cures and resurrection (if needed). The six conditions
that he says he uses for his personal version of the spell
are: 1. His death; 2. The loss of his mental faculties; 3. The
loss of his physical faculties; 4. The destruction of both upper
limbs; 5. The destruction of his total body volume; and 6. His
utterance of the word Thaele.
These are descriptions for a few of the more relevant bonus spells he gets access to, there are other things like dimensional travelling from Worldwalk for instance but it didn't seem very relevant.
The Simbuls Skeletal
Deliquescence
(Alteration)
Level: 8
Range: 0
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 day/level
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: 1 being
Saving Throw: Neg.
This spell enables the caster to turn all of the bones in any
one touched creature to jelly. The victim collapses into a
helpless, heaving mass that is able to speak, breathe, and perceive,
but do little else. Nothing can be held by a being affected
by this spell. The victim can flow downhill at MV 3,
and ooze across level surfaces at MV 1, but cannot move uphill
at all. Worn or carried items are not affected by the deliquescence,
and typically fall around the victim.
A boneless victim is AC 10 and has no physical attack
forms except smothering a prone, helpless being by flowing
over its means of breathing. A boneless victim can float on
water or swim through it at MV 3.
When the spell expires, the victim returns to its normal
form. The nature of the spell avoids the victim having to
make any system shock survival rolls. Liquids (even if boiling),
vapors, poisons, and corrosive substances, such as acid,
do no harm to a boneless creature, but it automatically fails all
Dexterity checks and makes all saving throws at a 3 penalty.
The Simbuls
Synostodweomer
(Alteration)
Level: 7
Range: 0
Components: V, S (M)
Duration: 1 rd.
Casting Time: 7
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: None
This spell allows the caster to transform the energy of another
spell memorized by the caster into healing magic. The
synostodweomer is cast, and then another spell of the casters
choosing. The second spell does not take effect, although any
material components it may require are consumed or altered
in the usual manner for that particular spell, and the spell
still vanishes from the casters memory.
Any being touched by the caster regains 2 hit points for
every level of the transformed (second) spell (a 9th-level
spell would give an injured being back 18 hit points). This
spell does not grant extra hit points, but excess points conveyed
can have special effects. An excess of 5 points cures
any one disease possessed by the injured creature, and an excess
of 7 points banishes all effects of poison. If both afflictions
are present, the caster must choose which to cure unless
there is enough of an excess (12 points) to cure both. A synostodweomer
does not affect lycanthropy. If the recipient is
neither diseased nor poisoned, or there are not at least 5
extra points conveyed, the excess curing is simply lost.
The healing capability endowed by the synostodweomer
must be used within 3 rounds, or both it and the second,
transferred spell are lost and wasted. Healing can only be
granted by direct flesh-to-flesh contact.
Only spells memorized by the caster of the synostodweomer
can be transformed into healing energy by this spell. It cannot
transform spells from scrolls or spell-like magical item
functions or abilities.
The material component of this spell (if any) is the material component of the spell that is broken down and converted
to healing energy.
So, it all depends on when the two met. If Raistlin encountered him after the events of the Spellplague, for instance, El might not survive it.