That's another thing… Elminster has friends and allies. Raistlin has pretty much screwed over any and every friend and ally he's ever had-including his brother, multiple times. I tend to think that this gives Elminster a hand/leg up in pretty much any situation. Plus Elminster has that Batman advantage called "crazy prepared". At least one of his level nine spells means he can't be easily killed, at least in 2e.
Also, the other thing is that Elminster thrives on being underestimated. He can pretend to be someone like Fizban, for example, and Raistlin might overlook/Discount him at first glance. Given Raistlin's encounter with Fizban, this may be unlikely, but you never know. (I am trying to be evenhanded here). I read the original novels back when they first came out, and I pretty much stopped reading after the series that takes place right before the Cataclysm, so I admit I am not all that up on Raistlin any longer.
Also, the other thing is that Elminster thrives on being underestimated.
Yea yea thrives. The other 'crucial' thing he thrives is luck that's what I say. How I wish we would have met after I had my Black Razor. I would paint it black that hat , and wouldn't care if it is just ornamental or not. Resurrect Drizzt for more info.
Raistlin was Drizzt before Drizzt even existed. Before everyone wanting to be Drizzt, everyone wanted to be Raistlin. I remember that time.
While I don't have a dog in this fight- I'd rather have Elminster in charge than Raistlin. Elminster at least works so that everyone has a chance to live in peace and relative harmony. Raistlin is only really concerned with making sure he's fine- everyone else can go hang.
@typo_tilly He wasn't just angry- he was cool. He was cursed to see everything aging, degrading and dying before his eyes- that's what was up with his Hourglass shaped pupils. A curse he received because he *was* willing to kill even his own brother to save his own life (it was an illusion, but he fire balled everyone with him on his test in the Tower of High Sorcery). It was the test that made him so sickly (it literally broke his health, as I recall he was not the most sturdy of people before the test, and, in game terms, lost, like 5 CON as part of the test). And the hourglass pupils was a reminder of how far he was willing to go to screw other people over so he could survive. These tendencies only became worse when he went from being a red robe mage (Mostly neutral alignment) to a black robe mage (evil Alignment). In short, a weak guy who used others to get ahead, and the tendency only got worse as he got older.
But he was a fairly powerful mage, and he didn't fit the heroic stereotype, so people fixated on him as a character. In the same way, Drizzt also doesn't fit the heroic stereotype- he's (Raistlin) the opposite of Drizzt- someone from a race generally given to evil who didn't fit in and rose above his origins to be a hero. Someone who goes out of his way to protect others despite being from a culture that tells people to put themselves first. In a way, he's a mirror Raistlin who comes from the opposite side. Both characters are Iconoclasts to their home culture. But just as Raistlin had friends but lost them all- Drizzt had no real friends, but gains them because of how he treats others.
A female version would be Kitiara, the small town girl who became a Dragon Highlord and left family and friends behind. The only difference is that the character of Raistlin became known to people because he was part of the saga from the first. Readers/players only knew of Kitiara from the past- we never got to know her as well as we did Raistlin.
I had sympathy for Raistlin at first. You know, as a character, he seems to have gotten a bad hand from life. But as you go on and read more about him, you begin to realize he's suffering from the choices he's made, and he pretty much deserves what he gets- that was how it seemed to me, anyway. He can be somewhat heroic at the beginning, but as time goes on, his attitude becomes more and more selfish and crystallizes.
As much as I feel Drizzt has become overplayed and a Mary Sue/Marty Stu-ish character (and to be honest, this is even more true of Jarlaxle), I still like him far better than Raistlin for the same reason I prefer Elminster over Raistlin- Drizzt does his best to be heroic and help his friends and the other people he knows. As I get older, I find heroes more interesting than selfish people, because IRL, it's harder to be a hero than to be a selfish git.
I was always a fan of Tasslehoff and Flint. While the novel series eventually went so wrong I stopped reading, I always felt the ending for Tass and Flint was one of the best farewells.
Raistlin was hard to like in a lot of ways, although his odd friendship with the gully dwarf woman (I can't remember the name at the moment) was one of the cracks in his otherwise evil wizard persona. I suppose his supporters and fans would say the choice he made once ultimate power was in his grasp was a sign that he wasn't completely evil. That though is definitely a point for debate.
@LadyRhian@typo_tilly As long as they are in a software which I will not be bored to play , they all will share the similar terror. The greater they fight to hype , the greater joy I'll have in slaying. Then I will uninstall it , if that were not enough for them ( grin grin ). Then I'll open MATLAB and start to write my own codes for my work , so anyone else may have joy in ruining them. The circle of coding , yes ( pentagram ? ).
@kcwise He does have a soft spot for someone who suffers through no fault of their own (like gully Dwarves). And Bupu was one of them. And he also does express genuine regret that he cannot return to his youth when he was actually capable of feeling love. But neither of those really changes the kind of person he is.
Raistlin reminds me of Darth Vader in a way. Both surrounded by tragedy which fueled their powerful characters - fans wanted them both to be more powerful. I guess Raistlin kinda fed into me because I grew up with him. Both Vader and Raistlin were sad and hollow people in certain ways, but people having been known to exhibit compassion in their lives. Interesting characters. I think Elminster wins this one in outright power (TFR is full of hugely powerful folks and non-folks), although were El born in Raist's world, who knows?
@kcwise He does have a soft spot for someone who suffers through no fault of their own (like gully Dwarves). And Bupu was one of them. And he also does express genuine regret that he cannot return to his youth when he was actually capable of feeling love. But neither of those really changes the kind of person he is.
He loved his brother Caramon. In the test, he was cursed with hour-glass eyes because he wanted to succeed, not survive. He killed the illusion of Caramon because he was jealous of Caramon seemingly using magic. I think that's quite an important distinction. Raistlin was driven by a need to prove himself strong in ways distinct from his physically powerful twin. He felt robbed. Apparently, he always kept his compassion for the weak - although god knows what he was thinking when he created all those twisted, deformed and (clearly suffering) creatures in the tower.
Eventually I'm gonna have to read some Forgotten Realms. Always had a grudge against it as the Dragonlance section kept getting smaller while it got bigger.
With that in mind I really have no idea how strong Elminster is. And Raistlin is way too varried to really pick a level. Are we saying his level as a black robe, or maybe when he killed/devoured Fistandantilus? One future he kills the patriarch of the pantheon in a single pass and basically destroys the planet, and in the other he's just a ghost (granted he's a ghost who could find the world even when the gods couldn't). That's a really big range.
I think Raistlin is a better character, but Elminster is blatantly powergaming for +1000 years. This is an annoyance in Forgotten Realms, its too powergamey and high magic.
Having played extensively in Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, with access to the stats of both characters in question, I would like to weigh in. I literally just made an account to do so. Raistlin is the superior magic user. Elminster is the stronger character. Still doesn't say who would win in a fight though. As I recall Raistlin was a level 27-29 magic user in 3.5. Elminster was like 32ish...? I'm too lazy to drag out the books right now. What I do recall is Elminster also had a couple of fighter levels, cleric, and rogue. While these are tricks that help in a fight, they detract from his competency in magic(not to say he isn't awesome). Also, not due to power settings but character preference, Elminser was a magic item whore. Decked out from head to toe. Raistlin personally detested mages who overly relied on magic items. Like Elminster. So he kept his to a minium so as to rely solely upon his own abilities. Elminter gets further boosts being a Chosen of Mystra; Raistlin killed his gods(ALL of them) in an alternate timeline and they never forgave him that fact. So Elminster gets an advantage there as well. Returning to the subject of magic items again, just because Raistlin was disdainful doesn't mean he was foolish. The artifact Staff of Magius, and the Orb of Dragonkind just to name a few. With an endless army of dragons and the likes of Wyrms like Cyan Bloodbane and Whisper, he could do much to weaken his worthy adversary long before he ever cast a single spell. People have also touted Elminster's long history of kicking ass and taking names. Nothing has been said of his ability to chew bubblegum, though. Raistlin actually wins this argument in the form of two things: the Bloodstone, and Fistandantilus. Raistlin absorbed Fistandantilus through the Bloodstone, which also possesses healing properties so that's useful, jumping his effective time on Krynn to close to the 3000 year mark as I recall. Again, too lazy to grab the books. Raistlin's abilities as the Master of Past and Present allow him to see the flow of time in the past , present and future and adjust accordingly. He references this fact in Dragons of a Summer Flame. So he has a bit of an upswing there. Also, like Chosen of Mystra, Master of the Tower of High Sorcery is also a template with some neat perks, so he's not deficient there either. Long story short, who wins? It depends really on where they are fighting. In Forgotten Realms? Elminster. In Dragonlance? Raistlin. Somewhere else? THAT is the fight of the century my friends.
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Also, the other thing is that Elminster thrives on being underestimated. He can pretend to be someone like Fizban, for example, and Raistlin might overlook/Discount him at first glance. Given Raistlin's encounter with Fizban, this may be unlikely, but you never know. (I am trying to be evenhanded here). I read the original novels back when they first came out, and I pretty much stopped reading after the series that takes place right before the Cataclysm, so I admit I am not all that up on Raistlin any longer.
Resurrect Drizzt for more info.
And blame D&D for making me such powagamey.
While I don't have a dog in this fight- I'd rather have Elminster in charge than Raistlin. Elminster at least works so that everyone has a chance to live in peace and relative harmony. Raistlin is only really concerned with making sure he's fine- everyone else can go hang.
But he was a fairly powerful mage, and he didn't fit the heroic stereotype, so people fixated on him as a character. In the same way, Drizzt also doesn't fit the heroic stereotype- he's (Raistlin) the opposite of Drizzt- someone from a race generally given to evil who didn't fit in and rose above his origins to be a hero. Someone who goes out of his way to protect others despite being from a culture that tells people to put themselves first. In a way, he's a mirror Raistlin who comes from the opposite side. Both characters are Iconoclasts to their home culture. But just as Raistlin had friends but lost them all- Drizzt had no real friends, but gains them because of how he treats others.
A female version would be Kitiara, the small town girl who became a Dragon Highlord and left family and friends behind. The only difference is that the character of Raistlin became known to people because he was part of the saga from the first. Readers/players only knew of Kitiara from the past- we never got to know her as well as we did Raistlin.
I had sympathy for Raistlin at first. You know, as a character, he seems to have gotten a bad hand from life. But as you go on and read more about him, you begin to realize he's suffering from the choices he's made, and he pretty much deserves what he gets- that was how it seemed to me, anyway. He can be somewhat heroic at the beginning, but as time goes on, his attitude becomes more and more selfish and crystallizes.
As much as I feel Drizzt has become overplayed and a Mary Sue/Marty Stu-ish character (and to be honest, this is even more true of Jarlaxle), I still like him far better than Raistlin for the same reason I prefer Elminster over Raistlin- Drizzt does his best to be heroic and help his friends and the other people he knows. As I get older, I find heroes more interesting than selfish people, because IRL, it's harder to be a hero than to be a selfish git.
Raistlin was hard to like in a lot of ways, although his odd friendship with the gully dwarf woman (I can't remember the name at the moment) was one of the cracks in his otherwise evil wizard persona. I suppose his supporters and fans would say the choice he made once ultimate power was in his grasp was a sign that he wasn't completely evil. That though is definitely a point for debate.
Thanks for the input everybody!
With that in mind I really have no idea how strong Elminster is. And Raistlin is way too varried to really pick a level. Are we saying his level as a black robe, or maybe when he killed/devoured Fistandantilus? One future he kills the patriarch of the pantheon in a single pass and basically destroys the planet, and in the other he's just a ghost (granted he's a ghost who could find the world even when the gods couldn't). That's a really big range.
I'm still gonna fanboy Raistlin though.