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Silver Sword Moral Quandry (Spoilers)

So I've just gotten back from the underdark and am now aware that the silver sword part I have has been stolen. I avoided contact with the Githyanki in the underdark after the mindflayers, and just got to Waukeen's Promenade where I was confronted by the Githyanki. (This is my first time this far into the game, as I re-rolled after getting to the underdark, replayed 1, and then restarted 2.) I had to go to work, so I left this for another time...

My quandry is that I'm playing a LG Monk who usually takes the most lawful good path (or at least tries to). On the one hand, the silver sword has been stolen from the Githyanki. On the other hand, it is a powerful item, and if I turn it over I will be handing it to a race of evil beings who simply attacked me without question and even quasi-betrayed me in the mindflayer's layer. I don't actually need the sword, since I don't have any two handed users (I set Keldorn free and chose Mazzy over Minsc).

Anyone want to weigh in?

Comments

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    The truly lawful and good path would be to realize that neither the Githyanki's attack on you nor their betrayal of you invalidates their rightful claim on an object, thus the proper course of action would be to return it to them. Yes, giving a powerful item back to evil creatures could result in tragedy but they should be given the benefit of the doubt--they may take their item and return home with it peacefully.
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    edited September 2014
    Adding to the above, keep in mind that the githyanki are warmongers. A good character may be against giving them a powerful weapon that will more than likely lead to increased bloodshed.

    The PC has plenty of reason to be negatively biased against the githyanki through experience as well. First, they're willing to murder an entire ship of men because they feel they were 'insulted' by having the sword hidden from them, then they abandon you in an illithid city, then, when you meet Simyaz again, he will attack you just because you might have the sword on you. In fact, I think if his reaction to you is hostile (due to low charisma) he will still attack you even after giving him the sword because his pride has been tarnished or whatever. I think I'd be unwilling to cooperate with any more of his kind in the future, regardless of my moral standards.
  • bjornebjorne Member Posts: 32
    I agree with @Dee and @Artemius_I‌ for the most part. The world seems better off with the piece of the silver sword safely tucked away in my bag of holding. Had it been something less likely to increase the Githyanki's power and was just about sentimental value, I would return it. I also didn't go out and steal it. Now that I have it though, who better to safeguard the sword piece against use by the Githyanki than my monk?
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    edited September 2014
    Interesting. I agree with @dee and @Artemius_I -- I the ability to turn over evil items to a temple would be nice mod or feature.

    If you have the sword you helped a thief steal from another thief -- what did your monk do in the underwater city? One time my NG character decided to help the rebel prince thinking it would be best to not to disrupt the balance of power between drow and the shark men. Another time a CG elven character decided to help the mad prince in the hopes that the shark men would stay so weak that they couldn't threaten the aquatic elves.
    Post edited by killerrabbit on
  • bjornebjorne Member Posts: 32
    @killerrabbit In the underwater city I sided with the King. I had made a deal (although it was seeminly the only alternative to death) and both the King and the Prince were evil. Siding with the King at least seemed to follow their laws and to weaken their bloodline, hopefully decreasing the damage they do in the future. Admittedly it didn't hurt that I got very nice gloves for my monk by siding with the King.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    That makes sense -- the only other LG resolution I can think of is "kill everything evil" . . . but then that all that killing makes Bhaal happy.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Silver Swords aren't evil iirc, just extremely powerful trophy/religious fetish/weapon of a very, very evil race.

    This is an issue of good vs nice in part. Good has too much interest in 'greater good' to help evil by giving them such a tool imho, but it would be totally in character for LN. LE evil might too, unless they need it... because they can argue that they personally got the blade legitimately, thus it is their property. I could see some LN seeing it that way too, and keeping it.

    That said, some utter bumpkin (low int, wis and cha) LG might be willing to return the blade.

    Aside, Kruin is awesomeness. Fully and completely awesomeness.
  • I totally agree with the notion that a good character should be reluctant to hand a powerful weapon back over to an evil race. On the other hand, one has to weigh the potential damage caused by further attempts by the Githyanki to recover the sword. A wild mage cutting lose in the middle of a city is no small matter. I still tend to lean towards keeping the sword, though.

    On the lawful side, things are a bit murkier because of the vagaries of property. There's a saying in the legal profession: "You can't get good title from a thief." You can't claim rightful ownership of a stolen sword simply because you didn't steal it yourself. This would probably only be a concern for a very lawful character, though, considering the usual convention of "I killed you, I get to keep your stuff" that holds in D&D.
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    I can imagine a character returning the blade in order to avoid a wild mage unleashing his spells in the Athkatla and wiping out a bunch of innocent civilians. Yes, the silver blade will be used for evil in the hands of the Githyanki, but it isn't as if it is a WMD level weapon. There are quite a few silver blades of varying power among the Githyanki already, so one more sword, regardless of power, is unlikely to make that much of a difference. And they spend most of their time away from the prime material plane, so it seems like even less of a serious breach to hand the blade over to avoid potential loss of innocent life. Not to mention the blood which might be spilled in every future encounter with insane Githyanki (at that point, as far as the player knows the vendetta could continue for a very long time).

    It's great fodder for role playing. Which is the good path? Endanger innocents to keep the blade, with the possibility of inspiring more such attacks in the future? Or give the blade up, with the knowledge that other innocents might die at some future point when the blade is reforged? I guess it all depends on the danger value you assign to the blade. Yes, it can decapitate, but even mundane swords are quite effective at killing people. Should a Lawful Good character destroy every surplus weapon they find because if they sell them an evil person might later buy one and use it to kill someone? or only sell to goodly shop keepers who use detect alignment and extensive background checks before any weapon sale? I wonder what the moral quandry would feel like if the silver sword were instead a mundane non-magical dagger. It's the same situation, really. Because of the nature of the D&D combat rules people attribute a lot of power to what is essentially just a very sharp sword.

    I guess what makes it a fun question is that there really isn't a right answer to the dilemma.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,078
    I don't really see what is "evil" about a vorpal sword in comparison to any other weapon. Regular swords kill people, and vorpal swords do too. What's the difference?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Kaigen said:

    I totally agree with the notion that a good character should be reluctant to hand a powerful weapon back over to an evil race. On the other hand, one has to weigh the potential damage caused by further attempts by the Githyanki to recover the sword. A wild mage cutting lose in the middle of a city is no small matter. I still tend to lean towards keeping the sword, though.

    On the lawful side, things are a bit murkier because of the vagaries of property. There's a saying in the legal profession: "You can't get good title from a thief." You can't claim rightful ownership of a stolen sword simply because you didn't steal it yourself. This would probably only be a concern for a very lawful character, though, considering the usual convention of "I killed you, I get to keep your stuff" that holds in D&D.

    The 'original owner' in this case doesn't have any proof beyond words, which is pretty weak legalwise. Githyanki don't have a deed or records, so I'm not sure that applies.

    Lawful Evil wouldn't hesitate to keep the blade under this pretext, assuming they can use it. They see the law as a tool or weapon, not a personal guide imho.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,250

    I don't really see what is "evil" about a vorpal sword in comparison to any other weapon. Regular swords kill people, and vorpal swords do too. What's the difference?

    The problem is just how deadly the Vorpal is; giving it to someone wantonly evil is like giving a known terrorist a nuke.

    I could buy the argument of surrendering it to avoid a deadly battle in town; but otherwise I think its best to not surrender it. If the Gith consider that a killing offense, they're sort of asking for the consequences.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Lots of interesting insights and yes there isn't a right answer. While it is a weapon, it isn't *just* a weapon -- its a vorpal silver sword made by the evil lich queen Gith herself, a weapon considered holy by an evil race.

    It's bit like wondering around in armor with unholy symbols of Bhaal on it -- the armor protects you while defend the innocent but at the same time you are promoting an evil religion.

    My NG and CG good characters have given it back to prevent civilians from being killed by fireballs and never gave the issue of ownership any consideration.

    Neutral Good could also give it over to preserve the balance of power -- the Gith spend most of their time fighting the mind flayers. I think LE and LN pcs should give it back because a vorpal silver sword can only belong to a Gith. LE could also decide that possession is 9 /10th of the law and that it belongs to them by right of conquest. NE and CE pcs should keep it because it benefits them and they are strong enough to beat the Gith.
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