I love these games, but... Doubt this game is completable
DKnight
Member Posts: 307
Let me start with how much baldurs gate 1 is my favorite game. I have beaten it well over 8 times with a party of 2-3 thieves and such not. I am good at the game and know the last boss fight well enough that I will usually only die once before I find something that works. I am excellent at that game. However the boss fight with sarevok with a solo char or party of 2 or 3 is nothing but simple compared to the boss fight in hell irenicus bg 2.
I used to play bg2 nonstop with solo builds but when it came to make it through with a party of 2-6 its impossible. The fight has no skill and goes on too long. Its one of the worst fights in history and the reasoning why is because the game would have been good if it was made without spellcaster weirdness.
I read somewhere about them adding sequencers and more spellcasters to the fights. Removing spellcasters is hard enough as it is.
I am just going to tell you right now that I will probably buy the game but I doubt it will be completable for most people and even people like myself who know 2nd edition.
I used to play bg2 nonstop with solo builds but when it came to make it through with a party of 2-6 its impossible. The fight has no skill and goes on too long. Its one of the worst fights in history and the reasoning why is because the game would have been good if it was made without spellcaster weirdness.
I read somewhere about them adding sequencers and more spellcasters to the fights. Removing spellcasters is hard enough as it is.
I am just going to tell you right now that I will probably buy the game but I doubt it will be completable for most people and even people like myself who know 2nd edition.
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Comments
The only people that are going to be able to stick it out will be the ones that are familiar with the rules and masochists.
Mage killing requires careful timing, spells like breach, Greater Malison , piece magic even can make a difference. Remove magic is combat form (only targets enemies) similar to dispel magic (which includes whole party).
Using Magic Arrows, bullets and darts to try to disrupt their spellcasting. There is a short bow which doesn't require bullets if I remember is good against mages/casters.
Inquisitors like Keldorn in the party are good if u like having him.
Its being like long time since I started bg2 so im trying my best to remember and type good information.
In contrast, the "skill" in the SoA final showdown is in fact general knowledge of the magic system and dealing with various monster immunities and mage protections. It is knowledge that a learning player accumulates on his journey to that final battle, which actually gives him a reasonable chance to beating it first time. In fact I did precisely that. I even got recorded my first BG2 playthrough as a blind Let's Play if you want the evidence. :P Oh if you thought the SoA final battle was long... you musta hated ToB final battle, if you got there.
What you might consider "skill", others might consider frustrating metagame design, what you might consider "spellcaster weirdness", is wonderful complexity and depth for others. Essentially it depends on personal choice and preferences. If you take a full party of pure-class mages in BG1, you're gonna find the early game really tricky, whilst a party of 6 archers would be pretty faceroll. In BG2 if you still got that party of 6 archers, you're gonna find life a lot harder than 6 mages.
Difficulty thus isn't really objective, and depends on how you play the game. You say playing with 2-6 party members is hard, but solo is fine... I'd say the opposite is true for me. I have no interest in solo'ing and so it seems incredibly difficult to me cos I haven't looked into how to do it.
What you mention is definitely one of the major differences between BG1 and 2. I remember my first time playing BG 2 was really frustrating. Mages seemed nigh invincible at first, and I often resorted to "cheese" tactics like flooding a room with multiple cloud kills and then shutting the door on the annoying mages. "Choke on that, invincible ones!" Through trial and error I learned the ropes, and things became a lot more manageable.
In regard to BG 2 I can see though how it might be a deal breaker for someone who had grown used to the BG 1 style of combat and just wanted to enjoy more of the same buttkicking for goodness. I'd suggest lowering the difficulty, at least during harder mage battles, and finding a few useful exploits to wipe out the mages quickly. For instance, I've found the Gesen Bow in the hands of my Archer to be a really effective mage slayer in many situations. "Eat electric death, spell mumbling fools!" There are, as I'm sure you know, quite a few guides online for dealing with mage protections. I'd suggest grabbing a few of the cheesiest exploits and shamelessly using them to get past the mages as quickly as possible since those fights aren't much fun for you. And, I know this is against the gamer's code, but if you really love a game aside from one annoying thing then make use of cheats. Ctrl Y the dang wizards and drop in a demon or two with the console to give a more melee oriented challenge.
Happily, as mentioned above, IWDEE is going to have a story mode so any pesky wizard encounters can be "walked through" to get to the next stage, and hopefully something you find more fun. And, I'd be willing to bet some hardworking modder will release a mod to strip away the BG2 elements and offer a more vanilla experience.
- Almost every mage is going to cast Horror and try to cause mass panic in your party. I keep the cleric spell Remove Fear active at all times when my party is in danger, because it prevents the Horror spell from working. If I do not have Remove Fear already cast for some reason, it is the first thing I have my cleric cast on sight of a mage.
-Almost every mage is going to cast at least one and possibly several devastating mind altering spells like Confusion, Chaos, Domination and/or Dire Charm. The cleric spell Chaotic Commands protects against all of them. I keep it active on all party members whenever the party is in danger. In a full six-member party, I like to have two clerics so I can keep everybody covered.
-Many mages and clerics are going to try direct save-or-die spells like Finger of Death and Disintegrate. The cleric spell Death Ward protects against all of them. I keep it active at all times during danger, at least on Charname.
-The cleric spell Protection from Evil 10' adds a significant bonus to saving throws, increasing the chances of only half damage if the mage gets down to his or her big damage spells. Again, keep it active during all times of danger.
-Before going to their mind-altering and then big damage spells, mages like to cast a series of protection spells that make themselves very hard to hit. Many of them are programmed with a Contingency that lets them cast these protections instantly upon going hostile, or to be already cast when you find them. The spell Breach very reliably removes almost all physical protections, so your fighters can hit the mages and make short work of them. Breach is the first spell I have my mage cast upon sight of a protected mage. If there is more than one mage, getting a Breach cast on each of them is a priority action. That's why it can be a good idea to have more than one mage in your own party.
-In addition to the magical physical protections, mages like to use Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Dimension Door, Mislead, and Project Image. These illusion spells not only make the mage hard or impossible to hit, Improved Invisibility will make him or her untargetable by spells, including Breach. So, casting the counterspell True Sight is a priority action for my cleric in a mage battle, if I don't have Keldorn. I prefer to have Keldorn so he can cast True Sight on the first round. If my cleric has to do it, it may be necessary to cast it before the mage(s) can Breach.
-If the mage is surrounded by a silver glow at the base of his or her feet, Spell Turning is cast, which will reflect any lower level offensive spells back against you. If there is a blue globe, the mage has cast either a Major or Minor Globe of Invulnerability and is immune to spells of possibly up to fifth level and lower. If you want to cast offensive spells at an enemy mage, you have to start learning to use the more complicated counterspells like Secret Word and Pierce Magic. I find this completely unnecessary in the vanilla game. Mages fall easily to melee once their physical protections and illusions are dispelled.
-The one exception to the above is dragons, who are very hard to bring down in melee even with their magical protections dispelled. Against dragons, you need to cast several Lower Resistance spells, at least two. Three or four are better. Then, you can bring them down with simple offensive spells like Magic Missiles.
tl;dr: You can win most BG2 mage fights with just a handful of easy to remember spells. Remove Fear, Protection from Evil 10', Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Breach, True Sight. Add in an item that gives Freedom so you won't get stuck in a Web, Paralyzed, or Held, and you're good to go through 99 percent of all the magic-heavy battles.
1 Half Orc Cleric of talos with +3 or +4 mace/shield (Me)
1 Anomen with gauntlet of dexterity and mace/shield (Fightercleric)
1 Jan with spells and (Thief/illusionist)
The party couldnt beat the fight because jan is too weak. Im not into playing with weak characters. And always in the past thats spellcasters. They cant fight and I have no use for them.
This would be alright if it was Pool of radiance (Tbased) but its not. 2nd edition turnbased makes mages actually really good as you can setup a fireball easily. In real time mages are useless for ranged aoes.
Im going to go with this party for IWD1 EE:
1 Full class wizardslayer with twohanded weapon style and staff or spear (Me)
1 Cleric/mage which is what I made in Poradiance. This guy can be backup fighter and spellcaster
1 Full class cleric of helm half orc. He will specialize in two handed or mace/shield.
If I can do Pool of Radiance with a party similar to this abovementioned then this game it has to work. If it doesnt then this game will suck because Ive been told PORadiance is harder. Although I dont think so. I am again more used to tbased combat.
All of those are good suggestions for getting through BG2. Take heed, @DKnight.
There's still the issue that one class shouldn't require that much strategy and spell/item investment to be able to deal with. If a mage is completely unprotected by bodyguards, summoned monsters, terrain, and traps, a Fighter should be able to simply walk up and slap the crap out of him barring being hit by any stunning/dominating/confusion spells. High-level IE play would have been so much better with more 3rd Edition-like spell lists, with ice, fire, and prismatic walls and other, less cheap tricks. 3E Wizards are still quadratic and unbalanced, but at least the game doesn't slap you in the face with that by making them immune to damage and being targeted by any spells/abilities in addition to stopping time and killing things instantly.
does you mage have reduced spell casting time?
As to Belgarath's list of stuff, how am I supposed to remember or know what to use what. The mage could cast confusion one time and fear another?
As for what mage use you don't have to remember what each do that why @BelgarathMTH said: "keep it active during all times of danger" so it make easier then to remember when to do what, beside the more you play the game the more you know it and that make thing easier.
The reason I left out some other protection spells, like Negative Energy Protection and Freedom, is that their durations are too short for me to find them very useful. I like to find magic items for those protections.
But the basic long-lasting protections, I cast at the entrance of a dungeon or an unexplored area. Remove Fear, Protection from Evil 10', Chaotic Commands, Death Ward. That's only four spells to remember, and those four alone will protect you from almost all bad magic.
When you find a mage, True Sight, Breach. That's only two spells to remember to cast on the enemy mage.
I think OP is, in a way, asking for Beamdog not to include sequencers, contingencies and the counterspells [breach, pierce magic etc.] which exist in BG2 but are almost non-existent in BG1 and non-existent in IWD1/IWD2.
I personally agree with him but the existence of those spells will not annoy me too much.
FYI Jan is the most powerful character there. If by "weak" you mean "can't fight well in melee" then no he can't do that so well, but if by "weak" you mean "I don't understand how to use a mage" then that's your ignorance.
I was going to make the wizardslayer or generic fighter for 1 .
Then go with cleric/mage for spellcaster for 2.
I want to include some kind of warrior for 3rd character. Maybe a blade for 3.
So I guess the fighter would act as warrior and damagedealer, the spellcaster would heal and cast spells to remove protections from mages and cast attack spells when possible and the bard would fight when possible and cast haste on party and other helpful attack spells he gets at higher level than mage.
If that party doesnt work then I will try and solo with a powerful class. Solo actually might be much better as you now have access to all the classes unavailable. In that case you dont have to cart around 5 more losers that act as cannon fodder.
Weapon unusable
End of round (this will make it turn based)
Spell Cast (so your mages don't waste too many rounds just standing around)
Character injured
Character's target destroyed
Enemy sighted
Trap found
You will begin to think of the mechanics the way the game does, i.e. in 6 second increments.
As far as your other question goes, you will begin to have it all down pat, but it may take a while. Another tip is to maximize the information box and carefully read what is happening. The game tells you, but sometimes it goes too fast to read. Pause the game and take a moment to read the combat information. This will help you counter actions. As @BelgarathMTH stated in his wonderful post, you will begin to anticipate their actions and be ahead of the curve.
Derp. Edited tag to correct mistake. Thanks @kaguana !
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21636/i-honestly-cant-play-real-time-games-anymore
Also, autopause is your friend if you prefer turn-based.
Take that, turnip hatin' scum!
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Thief
Sorcerer
I used a swashbuckler lvl 10 and imoen as a lvl 10 thief to melee sarevok and it worked because sarevok I figured a loophole in melee.
Ryuken87,
I used a swashbuckler in a solo run in Bg1 EE. Would the party you mentioned work if it were something like
Fighter/cleric
Sorcerer
Swashbuckler Or Blade
I dont really know what backup fighter would be better.
"-In addition to the magical physical protections, mages like to use Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Dimension Door, Mislead, and Project Image. These illusion spells not only make the mage hard or impossible to hit, Improved Invisibility will make him or her untargetable by spells, including Breach. So, casting the counterspell True Sight is a priority action for my cleric in a mage battle, if I don't have Keldorn. I prefer to have Keldorn so he can cast True Sight on the first round. If my cleric has to do it, it may be necessary to cast it before the mage(s) can Breach."
Having a Thief with some points into Detect Illusion can really help here, @Dknight. 100 points=100% chance to succeed.
It removes illusion effects, it doesn't just detect them.