And @ serge i dont share anitas reasoning. Not at all. I have a different oppinion on gaming and society and both are to me two completely different topics because gamers are from everywhere on this planet and every land or culture is a bit different. So what we have here is a problem of "western" society i assume yes and then the portray of some woman in gaming. GOOD ok i know it we all know it but what now ?
I think the best way i repeat roger roger that to bring the process of creating games closer to woman would now be a good time because the industry has a lot of attention. So this time could be used to keep woman interested in GAMING and the process and not just the "males vs females" you understand ???
Give woman now a better place how they want to see themself represented by not demanding it but by doing so. It´s simple as that. If you want to be seen as who you are you try to give yourself a portray. So i think thats very honest for all and could make way for great games in the future. Now focus on the help to bring them into the dev. process and let them do it. a man could never have written colonels bequest as a game, it´s on par with hitchcock or the kings quest games. Yes they are old but they are gems.
Follow that, @ NWN_babaYaga, some points we'll have to agree to disagree on. And you're right, there's going to be barriers on agreements that come from regional attitudes, religion, language what-have-you. All to the best we keep the internet open and accessible so as to allow people to share and dissemenate (sp? Whatever) the ideas we have the issues with. The key part is that ideas be allowed in a safe way. The focus isn't just on gaming but all of us and the internet too. Protecting or defending those that can't get involved without violence or threats is something that should disgust everyone.
I dont focus on the threat and insult stuff because it´s the internet and i dont see myself innocent enough to demand that.... i can explode pretty wildly too and can curse everyone to oblivion...
I´m sure we all agree on one thing and that should be a more respectfull environement for everyone. And that the gaming industry is targeted is because of young people who create the future. But i have my problems with that gender theology and stuff and i dont like that and thats why i totaly dismiss this whole idea of their agenda. Not that they point out something people can change to create a better attitude towards each other, i just think we are now finished with that and should focus on what to do here in gaming. We cant change the future now immidiately by shuting up young males in their freetime. I would choose a different way that i have already written.
And some gaming sites have thrown dirt at gamers which is as disgusting as the other side of the coin. So we are all not innocent but have to shake hands in the middle, come to a path that serves everyone and focus on the good stuff!
@typo_tilly I think you may have misunderstood what she was saying about Star Fox. She wasn't saying the intent was sexist, she was saying that replacing a female lead with a male lead is a problematic - and common - trope.
It's about the trope of female characters being portrayed in a sexual way, through visuals and music - not about developer intent. Individually, most of these things are not hugely problematic. The problem occurs when it happens on a broad scale, which is what we see today. This is a large part of what she is trying to illustrate.
I can't imagine we would do Hexxat the way we did it if we had to do it over. It is problematic - and I don't think it's being oversensitive, it's just realizing that there's a cultural context to these things that goes beyond the individual character. Lesbian vampires are a problematic trope - primarily in their presentation - and just because Hexxat doesn't conform to that typical presentation, it doesn't mean her being a lesbian vampire isn't problematic. I'm proud of what we did with Hexxat, but that doesn't mean I can't admit it was sexist.
@LiamEsler integrating new concepts into anything from a book, to a movie to a video game is always awkward. I liked the idea of Hexxat, but I'm more interested personally in her story. Just because we mess up here or there with an idea doesn't mean we can't get it right later on down the road. Most of my early attempts at writing were absolutely horrific when it came to female characters. I remember one time I was writing about my stories hero meeting a woman and I got carried away with describing her physically that someone pointed out it felt like I was avoiding actually having her DO anything. Show, don't tell right? Anyway, all I'm saying is that even finished products are just a springboard to the next Epic.
For the record, watch your audience when saying things like 'women are weaker' @TheGraveDigger and @NWN_babaYaga women that are activr weight lifters will be stronger than man that don't. Especially core and lrg strength, but not exclusively. I qualify as a pretty huge guy, but I hold no illusions that thrre are women stronger than me. Besides, they're tougher; women can handle higher gravity without passing out, require less food and have higher pain tolerances.
Back on topicish: Its really cheap and easy to say to women 'well, just develop more of your own games!', but you're either ignoring or unaware of how ridiculously misogynistic the game development industry can be. All thay crap that women used to have to tolerate at, well, any business what so ever is still often tolerated, both at 'social' events (ie getting groped while at a convention), and during normal business. Software engineering doesnt have a good relationship with women, which is why there have been so many 'shrink and pink' games directed at 'girl gamers', and why mainstream games portray women poorly. Movies and TV have some of the same problems.
I seriously have a problem with that word sexist of today. I mean... when i have a tingeling in my pants because i see a lovely woman and i dream of something nice you know am i now a sexist because i dont want to love her personality instead of her great body ? hmm.
You should not forget that there are millions of woman who loves to show of their body and sexyness so whats wrong with sexyness ?
And yes culture plays a role in everybodys mind because it´s just the way it is. Imagine a crusader game where christians raid muslim territory that isnt pretty nice for them too. So what is the real solution to now called out problem by Anita where she didnt give out a solution and dont even want to engage in a conversation. She is a fundamentalist, just read her twitter stuff. Holy moly i would say... she sounds not less radical at times as religious zealots.
@Dreadkhan i personaly judge people by what they are doing and not by their talking. And when coders have problems with some woman in their "aura" i think it´s because they are just not fit for that specific environment. Its up to everyone what he wants to do and no one has a right to demand anything without work or at least a will to start on it. Anita is now calling out all developers that they should care about their meSSage and that is pretty strange for someone who is just a little side story of the industry. Dont anyone thinks that a church member should dictate the state policy of any country ? Where´s the difference ?
no. I think the word sexist has gone way over the top. And i think sexyness is totaly ok and when males like sexy woman that is not sexist but natural. I dont have a complex or anything and thats maybe why i let woman do what they want. If they behave sexy what do i care. And if males paint them sexy so what. It´s a gift of mother nature!
Being sexually attracted isn't sexist until you start treating that sexy lady differently. Ogling can cross into creepy obviously, but only the absurd wing of 'feminism' makes a big stink about checking out those attractive. If a pretty woman is treated as a bauble, you have a problem!
A Crusader-type game becomes problematic whrn you start demonizing a side; ie making the Muslims the only ones commiting atrocities for one would be wrong and inaccurate. Crusaders werent very nice people, nor were Saracens.
If the enviromemt is hostile, then the enviromemt is the problem. There is never an excuse for a company to tolerate employees that behave inappropriately; software engineering is starting to learn something many large business' are already aware of. There is a LEGAL obligation to not foster a hostile enviromemt in the workplace. If a company is found to be enabling such an enviroment, they are going to enter a world economic hurt until they grow up. Feminism is about equality, not propping women above women arbitrarily. It is at its core (and best) about tolerating everyone, men, women, gays, trans, different races etc, so its actually a good thing for men too.
Now, 2nd part, should a company encourage women in an industry where women are majore consumers?? Well, the ones that do will likely have a huge advantage economicly, so yes, they need to create a healthy and inclusive enviroment or collapse. Its not a secret how unstable/unpredictable a business game developement is, so companies that dont adapt quickly to the changing consumer base go under very quickly.
A few points: (and bear in mind that this is my personal opinion)
Kidnapping: the reason why, IMO, it's usually females and not often males who get kidnapped and have to be rescued is probably due to old cultural paradigms that have persisted into the modern age. Women are never considered less than perfect for being in that situation. Men are. A woman who can't fight is accepted as normal - if a woman wants to fight, it's (sometimes) her choice, but it's by no means expected. A man IS expected to be able to fight, and a man who can't, or chooses not to, is seen as a wimp and a coward, and has his sexuality questioned. Therefore, if we consider that the implication is that one who is captured and needs rescuing is thought of as weak (which I personally would argue that it depends on the circumstances in which you're captured but that's besides the point), a woman is allowed to be weak and nobody will think any less of her for it, but a man is not allowed to be weak without being thought of as less than a man. I'm not saying I agree with this, that's just how things are.
Sexualisation: well, I don't generally like this either, but it doesn't only happen to women. There are games where the male character is portrayed as a big burly Schwarzenegger type with huge biceps and a sixpack, and in bronze age style fantasy (Conan, Hercules, the Spartan hoplites from the film 300), must be topless, or wear only a baldric, in order to show their massive abs. Even FPS games like Duke Nukem, Doom, and Wolfenstein, portray you as a big burly muscular badass soldier type. I don't like being portrayed like this any more than women like being portrayed as supermodels with huge breasts and boob armour. Granted, it does happen more often to females (at least males get people like Garret, and Gordon Freeman, at the other end of the spectrum) but to say that men never suffer from this isn't quite accurate either.
Strong female characters: there are plenty, especially nowadays. Lara Croft may have originally been designed as a sex symbol, but she's still doing all kinds of heroics that average people can't. Chell from the Portal games, while not gunning down hundreds of bad guys, is still supposed to be smart and athletic (does 'strong' necessarily have to mean 'beating people up'?). Jan Ors from the Jedi Knight games - okay, she gets captured once, but she's a pilot flying covert operations for the Rebel Alliance. Capture was always going to be a risk. All RPGs where you create a character let you play as a female, with no gender based restrictions on your potential prowess, and all fighting games have several female characters who are at least on a par with the males (I, personally, am rather fond of the Williams sisters from the Tekken games, and Nina has long been my favourite character). Rise of the Triad lets you play as several female characters (again, I'm rather fond of the feisty Canadian redhead). Warcraft III has Jaina Proudmore, who, I understand, is fairly capable. These are just the ones I can think of right now, I'm sure there are more.
Support roles: this is probably because these roles are seen as the ones that require guile and intelligence - the casters, the thieves, the healers, etc - while the warriors are generally seen as dumb brute force types (we all know that European martial arts is basically flailing away with no skill after all :-p ), and women tend to lend themselves more easily to roles that require intelligence, guile, grace, dexterity and wit, rather than just strength and brute force. So be thankful that at least you women have the intelligent types, while we men often get stuck with the dumb brute types. ;-)
Finally, there is still the hard, cold, fact of the matter: the gaming community is still very much male dominated. Yes, there are females who are gamers, but male gamers outnumber them by rather a lot. I can't speak for the entire demographic since I have no official proof, but on the NWN2 server I used to play, I have seen, over the course of history, about 3 or 4 girls, and about 100 guys. Maybe it's a Catch 22 - while women are portrayed in a less than pleasing manner, female gamers are likely to avoid gaming, seeing it as a nerd's fantasy fetish - but unfortunately, while this continues to be the case, developers are probably more likely to market their games primarily at men.
When I started modding for sof 1 (around 2001 i guess) and later on sof2 there was no woman involved anywhere. I moved onto Quake TA and nada, no woman at all. Then i came to NWN and huh i found some very creative and innovative woman who all were respected and still are. Not because they are woman but because they have earned it. So in my personal experience in modding i can say woman are interested in RPGs and freedom in telling storys and when they do they can it greatly. But the majority for action games is male dominated and that will not change at all imo.
And please guys that has nothing to do because we gamers treated them bad or anything but they had no interest in our stuff. The only game my ex liked was Mario and banjo and Kazooi which was funny with her. But she didnt played that well lol!
Oh and yes girls love the sims. I think that game brought many girls into gaming. Maxis did it!
@typo_tilly ok that that suxs. But i cant say sorry for other idiots behaviour. Well modders are just modders you know... mappers, coders modelers skinners etc. And i never came across any female modders in these days.
And honestly the CS and Quake crowd were pretty hardcore to all people. When i entered my first time into cs 1.45 or so i was clubbered so badly and thought what the hell is here happening. Insults were common language and i didnt even bothered to look in the chat window any longer. It´s just people with complexes that they try to cover up via gaming. To me the worst people were CS players.
But i agree that guys should treat girls with the same respect as all the others and that it´s uncool to have a separated server just because you are insulted of a name or gender or whatever. I mean who cares who you are as long you can play the game right
That is always silly when people dont care about the actuall work but who the person is so in your case your sister. I mean i never thought about if a woman cant do that stuff or this it was just no one of you was interested and so it wasnt even a topic within the community to talk about. I never thought there are realy female Quake players btw because not of the game but the ingame stuff.
If you know there was so much hatred within the mod community of separated Teams and we hated other game modders and so on. So i can tell you that most people of today cant even think about what we all throw at each other and sabotaged here and there. IT was a real little war
It was even so that a full team went onto the other forum and spammed the whole thing with insults and spread lies about them just because of sabotage stupidity. It is funny now as a memory but it had something of a sect you were in!
So all in all females didnt had to eat what we had during these flame wars thats not an excuse for todays behaviour but its the reality of the scene back then.
@Squire part of the problem with discussing the # of women playing some of these games is the worthless POSs and crap they have to deal with, from utterly inappropriate names to moronic comments. Too many people believe that relative anonymity and minimal if any punishment for bad behavior entitles them to act like a stereotypical bad guy and think it's cool. Personally I'm all for removing the anonymity from gaming's forums, chats etc. As well for allowing a greater authority to ban from servers and even ISPs. Don't get me wrong, it's an extreme stance and I onow it but I don't like the idea of my girlfriend, my sister, my Mom, WHATEVER having to deal with this garbage. Bullying is bad enough but sexism thrown in is unacceptable and where the person is unwilling to recognize that there should be options for the greater body that wants a fun, safe experience.
I think it´s easier for me to relate to your experience because i was directly involved playing and doing stuff for the game. And i understand the frustration because i was also disgusted by the people who couldnt stop insulting every player who wasnt the best sharpshooter and just wanted to have some fun. And another common pratice was to just snipe you on and on after respawn so you had to leave.
Maybe it´s this over passionate connection some guys have with their game and once they see themself in a position of being a "good" l33t player they think they can do anything with everyone. But that is not only a problem for you girls but for every new player. It destroys the atmosphere for everyone in a MP environement.
The worst thing you can do as a female gamer is to win a battle against one of those hardcore dudes full of their sharpshooting skills. Then you will hit them exactly were it hurts and his wrath will be for ever Yeah, maybe i can understand that now a bit better what you mean with sexism when it´s not even about gaming but you as a woman.
People should stop using her as a Fuhrer and start thinking for themself what they can do. Whenever someone starts to climb up a ladder and spouts out radical stuff stop for a moment and use your own mind. One simple step doesnt mean it´s a good plan for a better future. I dont like people who centers themself into a spotlight and not letting others come to word. Whenever heat takes over ones mind because he/she has a "duty" wait a night and sleep over it. Our history is full of little people telling good sounding stuff and in the end it was ... the exact opposite! Take away her attention and see for just one month what will happen. I bet you will be surprised now
The industry dont need a Fuhrer but a conversation out of common sense and respect for anyone. Not just one side guys. always include the other side to hear whats being not told by the side you are in. Thats a basic rule of democracy in action. Many oppions gathered together and then try to make out key points for the benefit of all is what should be done... not follow blindly anything
Because if someone is so addicted to one agenda without letting in one different oppinion there already is a target that you dont know. A one way ticket cant have a plan B and thats how you can make out radical people just by seeing if they can step over their own shadow!
ps that link with theverge.com would you trust a nazi site when a militant neo-nazi would say hey, here listen to this site because it´s de truth and nothing but de truth and you find here no bias no no. We are totaly "independant" and neutral heil you know... and suddenly all the militant guys with names like "rosa teddybear" would tell you stuff like how bad the nazis were being treated and so on. Please stop that nonsense and go back to the real way of communication in a democracy and that is to hear the opposite.
ps that link with theverge.com would you trust a nazi site when a militant neo-nazi would say hey, here listen to this site because it´s de truth and nothing but de truth and you find here no bias no no. We are totaly "independant" and neutral heil you know... and suddenly all the militant guys with names like "rosa teddybear" would tell you stuff like how bad the nazis were being treated and so on. Please stop that nonsense and go back to the real way of communication in a democracy and that is to hear the opposite.
Also... customers!
I find it extremely problematic that you're comparing a feminist to a neo nazi.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I have a little more to elaborate on that comment...
I feel like the word "feminism" has become the victim of bad branding on the Internet. If you bother to look up the concept and ideals behind feminism, it's essentially all about giving both men and women equal opportunities and treating each other with respect, regardless of their gender, race, sexuality, ability, or whatever else you can think of. It has its roots with female-issues mostly because...well... Women weren't allowed to vote in the U.S. approximately sixty years ago (edit: gaahhh it's been about ninety years now) remember? That's just one of many female-centric examples that started the whole movement.
Most people will get behind a movement that's all about increasing equal opportunities to everyone. But then when you call it "feminism" the internet will hiss and rear back like you just said a filthy word. While I agree that there are certain branches of "feminism" that are less than tasteful (and I use quotation marks here because I personally don't consider these people "feminists"), the ideals at feminism's core are not bad. It's just with the help of a very vocal and very hateful minority that the term's become skewed somehow. Nowadays, "equalists" are the accepted norm while "feminists" are worse than nazis. That just ain't right.
(I often joke about my feminist position with my boyfriend. He calls himself an equalist. I say he's a feminist that doesn't want to be associated with feminism. He tends to laugh and say yes. :P)
ps that link with theverge.com would you trust a nazi site when a militant neo-nazi would say hey, here listen to this site because it´s de truth and nothing but de truth and you find here no bias no no. We are totaly "independant" and neutral heil you know... and suddenly all the militant guys with names like "rosa teddybear" would tell you stuff like how bad the nazis were being treated and so on. Please stop that nonsense and go back to the real way of communication in a democracy and that is to hear the opposite.
Also... customers!
I find it extremely problematic that you're comparing a feminist to a neo nazi.
Beyond that I find it problematic for your statement you mentioned nazis at all, when nobody's got a swastika, nobody's calling for genocide or preaching hate of any kind. Maybe it's just me but old school forum rules stated that when one person can no longer maintain their side of the conversation without descending to the labels of 'nazi' or 'facist' whatever, they've lost their argument. A lot of talk has been made about how Anita should address herself in a more concilatory manner: look to yourself here.
I only saw one of her vids iirc. I thought it was fairly interesting, and some of the not blatantly obvious examples she used were things I hadn't really thought about/noticed before. I didn't really know who she was until a while later when I heard about her getting threats and their being controversy over her videos for some reason that eludes me and then I realized the internet is crazy. So yeah, my thoughts are that the vids seemed interesting, and the internet is crazy. Yup.
@DreadKhan do you have anything to back that up with or are you purely suggesting that equating Nazis with Feminists is a no-brainer?
What? I am saying that people are essentially putting words into the mouths of feminists in this thread in order to criticise faults that don't exists. When someone tries to associate feminism with neo-nazis (who are not remotely feminist) to prove feminists are evil, yes, I am going to call them on making a straw effigy to burn.
Comments
i dont share anitas reasoning. Not at all. I have a different oppinion on gaming and society and both are to me two completely different topics because gamers are from everywhere on this planet and every land or culture is a bit different. So what we have here is a problem of "western" society i assume yes and then the portray of some woman in gaming. GOOD ok i know it we all know it but what now ?
I think the best way i repeat roger roger that to bring the process of creating games closer to woman would now be a good time because the industry has a lot of attention. So this time could be used to keep woman interested in GAMING and the process and not just the "males vs females" you understand ???
Give woman now a better place how they want to see themself represented by not demanding it but by doing so. It´s simple as that. If you want to be seen as who you are you try to give yourself a portray. So i think thats very honest for all and could make way for great games in the future. Now focus on the help to bring them into the dev. process and let them do it. a man could never have written colonels bequest as a game, it´s on par with hitchcock or the kings quest games. Yes they are old but they are gems.
I´m sure we all agree on one thing and that should be a more respectfull environement for everyone. And that the gaming industry is targeted is because of young people who create the future. But i have my problems with that gender theology and stuff and i dont like that and thats why i totaly dismiss this whole idea of their agenda. Not that they point out something people can change to create a better attitude towards each other, i just think we are now finished with that and should focus on what to do here in gaming. We cant change the future now immidiately by shuting up young males in their freetime. I would choose a different way that i have already written.
And some gaming sites have thrown dirt at gamers which is as disgusting as the other side of the coin. So we are all not innocent but have to shake hands in the middle, come to a path that serves everyone and focus on the good stuff!
It's about the trope of female characters being portrayed in a sexual way, through visuals and music - not about developer intent. Individually, most of these things are not hugely problematic. The problem occurs when it happens on a broad scale, which is what we see today. This is a large part of what she is trying to illustrate.
I can't imagine we would do Hexxat the way we did it if we had to do it over. It is problematic - and I don't think it's being oversensitive, it's just realizing that there's a cultural context to these things that goes beyond the individual character. Lesbian vampires are a problematic trope - primarily in their presentation - and just because Hexxat doesn't conform to that typical presentation, it doesn't mean her being a lesbian vampire isn't problematic. I'm proud of what we did with Hexxat, but that doesn't mean I can't admit it was sexist.
Back on topicish: Its really cheap and easy to say to women 'well, just develop more of your own games!', but you're either ignoring or unaware of how ridiculously misogynistic the game development industry can be. All thay crap that women used to have to tolerate at, well, any business what so ever is still often tolerated, both at 'social' events (ie getting groped while at a convention), and during normal business. Software engineering doesnt have a good relationship with women, which is why there have been so many 'shrink and pink' games directed at 'girl gamers', and why mainstream games portray women poorly. Movies and TV have some of the same problems.
You should not forget that there are millions of woman who loves to show of their body and sexyness so whats wrong with sexyness ?
And yes culture plays a role in everybodys mind because it´s just the way it is. Imagine a crusader game where christians raid muslim territory that isnt pretty nice for them too. So what is the real solution to now called out problem by Anita where she didnt give out a solution and dont even want to engage in a conversation. She is a fundamentalist, just read her twitter stuff. Holy moly i would say... she sounds not less radical at times as religious zealots.
@Dreadkhan i personaly judge people by what they are doing and not by their talking. And when coders have problems with some woman in their "aura" i think it´s because they are just not fit for that specific environment. Its up to everyone what he wants to do and no one has a right to demand anything without work or at least a will to start on it. Anita is now calling out all developers that they should care about their meSSage and that is pretty strange for someone who is just a little side story of the industry. Dont anyone thinks that a church member should dictate the state policy of any country ? Where´s the difference ?
Please stop posting if you're going to continue in that vein. And keep it PG13.
A Crusader-type game becomes problematic whrn you start demonizing a side; ie making the Muslims the only ones commiting atrocities for one would be wrong and inaccurate. Crusaders werent very nice people, nor were Saracens.
If the enviromemt is hostile, then the enviromemt is the problem. There is never an excuse for a company to tolerate employees that behave inappropriately; software engineering is starting to learn something many large business' are already aware of. There is a LEGAL obligation to not foster a hostile enviromemt in the workplace. If a company is found to be enabling such an enviroment, they are going to enter a world economic hurt until they grow up. Feminism is about equality, not propping women above women arbitrarily. It is at its core (and best) about tolerating everyone, men, women, gays, trans, different races etc, so its actually a good thing for men too.
Now, 2nd part, should a company encourage women in an industry where women are majore consumers?? Well, the ones that do will likely have a huge advantage economicly, so yes, they need to create a healthy and inclusive enviroment or collapse. Its not a secret how unstable/unpredictable a business game developement is, so companies that dont adapt quickly to the changing consumer base go under very quickly.
Kidnapping: the reason why, IMO, it's usually females and not often males who get kidnapped and have to be rescued is probably due to old cultural paradigms that have persisted into the modern age. Women are never considered less than perfect for being in that situation. Men are. A woman who can't fight is accepted as normal - if a woman wants to fight, it's (sometimes) her choice, but it's by no means expected. A man IS expected to be able to fight, and a man who can't, or chooses not to, is seen as a wimp and a coward, and has his sexuality questioned. Therefore, if we consider that the implication is that one who is captured and needs rescuing is thought of as weak (which I personally would argue that it depends on the circumstances in which you're captured but that's besides the point), a woman is allowed to be weak and nobody will think any less of her for it, but a man is not allowed to be weak without being thought of as less than a man. I'm not saying I agree with this, that's just how things are.
Sexualisation: well, I don't generally like this either, but it doesn't only happen to women. There are games where the male character is portrayed as a big burly Schwarzenegger type with huge biceps and a sixpack, and in bronze age style fantasy (Conan, Hercules, the Spartan hoplites from the film 300), must be topless, or wear only a baldric, in order to show their massive abs. Even FPS games like Duke Nukem, Doom, and Wolfenstein, portray you as a big burly muscular badass soldier type. I don't like being portrayed like this any more than women like being portrayed as supermodels with huge breasts and boob armour. Granted, it does happen more often to females (at least males get people like Garret, and Gordon Freeman, at the other end of the spectrum) but to say that men never suffer from this isn't quite accurate either.
Strong female characters: there are plenty, especially nowadays. Lara Croft may have originally been designed as a sex symbol, but she's still doing all kinds of heroics that average people can't. Chell from the Portal games, while not gunning down hundreds of bad guys, is still supposed to be smart and athletic (does 'strong' necessarily have to mean 'beating people up'?). Jan Ors from the Jedi Knight games - okay, she gets captured once, but she's a pilot flying covert operations for the Rebel Alliance. Capture was always going to be a risk. All RPGs where you create a character let you play as a female, with no gender based restrictions on your potential prowess, and all fighting games have several female characters who are at least on a par with the males (I, personally, am rather fond of the Williams sisters from the Tekken games, and Nina has long been my favourite character). Rise of the Triad lets you play as several female characters (again, I'm rather fond of the feisty Canadian redhead). Warcraft III has Jaina Proudmore, who, I understand, is fairly capable. These are just the ones I can think of right now, I'm sure there are more.
Support roles: this is probably because these roles are seen as the ones that require guile and intelligence - the casters, the thieves, the healers, etc - while the warriors are generally seen as dumb brute force types (we all know that European martial arts is basically flailing away with no skill after all :-p ), and women tend to lend themselves more easily to roles that require intelligence, guile, grace, dexterity and wit, rather than just strength and brute force. So be thankful that at least you women have the intelligent types, while we men often get stuck with the dumb brute types. ;-)
Finally, there is still the hard, cold, fact of the matter: the gaming community is still very much male dominated. Yes, there are females who are gamers, but male gamers outnumber them by rather a lot. I can't speak for the entire demographic since I have no official proof, but on the NWN2 server I used to play, I have seen, over the course of history, about 3 or 4 girls, and about 100 guys. Maybe it's a Catch 22 - while women are portrayed in a less than pleasing manner, female gamers are likely to avoid gaming, seeing it as a nerd's fantasy fetish - but unfortunately, while this continues to be the case, developers are probably more likely to market their games primarily at men.
Just my thoughts on the issue.
And please guys that has nothing to do because we gamers treated them bad or anything but they had no interest in our stuff. The only game my ex liked was Mario and banjo and Kazooi which was funny with her. But she didnt played that well lol!
Oh and yes girls love the sims. I think that game brought many girls into gaming. Maxis did it!
ok that that suxs. But i cant say sorry for other idiots behaviour. Well modders are just modders you know... mappers, coders modelers skinners etc. And i never came across any female modders in these days.
And honestly the CS and Quake crowd were pretty hardcore to all people. When i entered my first time into cs 1.45 or so i was clubbered so badly and thought what the hell is here happening. Insults were common language and i didnt even bothered to look in the chat window any longer. It´s just people with complexes that they try to cover up via gaming. To me the worst people were CS players.
But i agree that guys should treat girls with the same respect as all the others and that it´s uncool to have a separated server just because you are insulted of a name or gender or whatever. I mean who cares who you are as long you can play the game right
If you know there was so much hatred within the mod community of separated Teams and we hated other game modders and so on. So i can tell you that most people of today cant even think about what we all throw at each other and sabotaged here and there. IT was a real little war
It was even so that a full team went onto the other forum and spammed the whole thing with insults and spread lies about them just because of sabotage stupidity. It is funny now as a memory but it had something of a sect you were in!
So all in all females didnt had to eat what we had during these flame wars
Maybe it´s this over passionate connection some guys have with their game and once they see themself in a position of being a "good" l33t player they think they can do anything with everyone. But that is not only a problem for you girls but for every new player. It destroys the atmosphere for everyone in a MP environement.
The worst thing you can do as a female gamer is to win a battle against one of those hardcore dudes full of their sharpshooting skills. Then you will hit them exactly were it hurts and his wrath will be for ever
Yeah, maybe i can understand that now a bit better what you mean with sexism when it´s not even about gaming but you as a woman.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/13/6145169/anita-sarkeesian-shares-the-most-radical-thing-you-can-do-to-support
I'm an idiot, I actually live in Portland and didn't know about this. Ah well, it probably would have involved leaving my apartment.
The industry dont need a Fuhrer but a conversation out of common sense and respect for anyone. Not just one side guys. always include the other side to hear whats being not told by the side you are in. Thats a basic rule of democracy in action. Many oppions gathered together and then try to make out key points for the benefit of all is what should be done... not follow blindly anything
Because if someone is so addicted to one agenda without letting in one different oppinion there already is a target that you dont know. A one way ticket cant have a plan B and thats how you can make out radical people just by seeing if they can step over their own shadow!
ps that link with theverge.com
would you trust a nazi site when a militant neo-nazi would say hey, here listen to this site because it´s de truth and nothing but de truth and you find here no bias no no. We are totaly "independant" and neutral heil you know... and suddenly all the militant guys with names like "rosa teddybear" would tell you stuff like how bad the nazis were being treated and so on. Please stop that nonsense and go back to the real way of communication in a democracy and that is to hear the opposite.
Also... customers!
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I have a little more to elaborate on that comment...
I feel like the word "feminism" has become the victim of bad branding on the Internet. If you bother to look up the concept and ideals behind feminism, it's essentially all about giving both men and women equal opportunities and treating each other with respect, regardless of their gender, race, sexuality, ability, or whatever else you can think of. It has its roots with female-issues mostly because...well... Women weren't allowed to vote in the U.S. approximately sixty years ago (edit: gaahhh it's been about ninety years now) remember? That's just one of many female-centric examples that started the whole movement.
Most people will get behind a movement that's all about increasing equal opportunities to everyone. But then when you call it "feminism" the internet will hiss and rear back like you just said a filthy word. While I agree that there are certain branches of "feminism" that are less than tasteful (and I use quotation marks here because I personally don't consider these people "feminists"), the ideals at feminism's core are not bad. It's just with the help of a very vocal and very hateful minority that the term's become skewed somehow. Nowadays, "equalists" are the accepted norm while "feminists" are worse than nazis.
(I often joke about my feminist position with my boyfriend. He calls himself an equalist. I say he's a feminist that doesn't want to be associated with feminism. He tends to laugh and say yes. :P)