Anita Sarkeesian: Your Thoughts (no flaming please)
One thing I'm curious about is how the community here and elsewhere feels about Anita Sarkeesian? I'm not a really social person on any level, and so I don't have any greater a sense on her current perception by the communities I engage with than what's raised.
I never really paid attention to the whole kickstarter thing until I read something about it on a random search for more information about who she was, after watching a few posted videos from her on mostly just pop culture movies, music, her nearly tear filled entreaty for Veronica Mars, and a few of the early vids on Video Games. The search after revealed the ****storm that came up with those Video Games vids & the kick starter related request for funding of.
For my own part, I felt she had a number of good points, though for some parts here and there I also felt that there was a bit much in the way of criticism and a more 'balanced' opinion piece might have endeared her to me the more, with an allowance for compare and contrast, if you get me. But the torrents of abuse that were bucket tossed at her pretty much made me into a pro-Sarkeesian simply by default: If the only way you can win the argument is to spread malicious lies, threats, and abuse, you lose whatever argument you might have hoped to win.
Does anybody else here have anything they'd like to contribute or talk about in regards? Never have personally spoken with her by e-mail, chat, whatever, nor even attempted contact through her website as there's not much more I could say than, 'you go, girl!'. Have a good night all (7:03pm PST)
I never really paid attention to the whole kickstarter thing until I read something about it on a random search for more information about who she was, after watching a few posted videos from her on mostly just pop culture movies, music, her nearly tear filled entreaty for Veronica Mars, and a few of the early vids on Video Games. The search after revealed the ****storm that came up with those Video Games vids & the kick starter related request for funding of.
For my own part, I felt she had a number of good points, though for some parts here and there I also felt that there was a bit much in the way of criticism and a more 'balanced' opinion piece might have endeared her to me the more, with an allowance for compare and contrast, if you get me. But the torrents of abuse that were bucket tossed at her pretty much made me into a pro-Sarkeesian simply by default: If the only way you can win the argument is to spread malicious lies, threats, and abuse, you lose whatever argument you might have hoped to win.
Does anybody else here have anything they'd like to contribute or talk about in regards? Never have personally spoken with her by e-mail, chat, whatever, nor even attempted contact through her website as there's not much more I could say than, 'you go, girl!'. Have a good night all (7:03pm PST)
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Her videos would have a little more power if she applied the tropes to newer games that were still breaking all the rules like Metro Last Light. She needs to review games from a feminist point of view, educating both the masses and developers on how to portray women more equally in video games.
The vile directed at her is what one would expect from the internet, and it is a shame because there have been a lot of well spoken counters to her points that get lost in the mess and even bunched in with the threats and abuse.
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And if you want to put the EE through the ringer on feminism:
Why do you need to rescue the two new female NPCs to get them to join you but not the male ones?
Personally, I'm a feminist, and I found Anita's videos insightful - they helped explain the concept of male privilege to me in ways I hadn't previously thought of. Her last videos in particular were helpful in illustrating some hugely problematic depictions of women in games.
We're guilty of this too at Beamdog, and work hard to combat it as we go. It's always a learning experience.
Feminists would also note most females are 'support' types, like clerics or thieves, and most shorties are the same. Exceptions like Shar-Teel and Korgan/Kagain arent exactly well adjusted, male tall characters are typically the warriors, etc. The best positive exception is probably Mazy.
As an aside, "Mr. Male Character" is a good take on how wrapping up your masculine hero in a female avatar falls short of appropriately portraying a female character to the audience. Anybody want to recommend some games with either what they feel is a good female protagonist, or at least has good representation in that vein?
DOUBLE ASIDE: does anyone know if she's made comments on 'Orphan Black'? One of those few shows recently that haven't made me switch off in disgust.
The Walking Dead Season 1 & especially 2. Not only for strong feminine roles but also minorities which IMO get over looked more than women in games.
Mass Effect 1 and 2 (3 took a giant step backwards)
Dragon Age: Origins (once again DA2 took a step backwards)
Red Dead Redemption especially for a period piece.
XCom: Enemy Within/Unknown: even through it only has one female cast (not including squads) in a small cast to begin with, that female was handled brilliantly with no fan service thrown at her.
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And don't get me wrong, Metro Last Light is a great FPS. One of the first FPS I actually finished playing and enjoyed. It had two minor hiccups that could of been avoided or done a bit more tastefully. Both those scenes tend to distract from the story instead of enhancing it.
GTA is and will always be an parody on pop culture. It is meant to offend and the player be as politically incorrect as possible.
In regards DA:O, what anything in particular that made you feel that? I eventually stopped playing myself, after a combo of things that made returning seem more like a job I'd given myself rather than actual entertainment. I may have to try out X-com, I don't really know jack all about it but I am hearing a lot of good things about it as I look for games to play.
Might have to check out Walking Dead too, I got disconnected after my favorite character bit it. Ah Shane, you were ... complicated
I really liked Andrea too, regardless of crowd opinion, but I've seen that actress in quite a few shows and always liked her characters so that may be a bias.
Personaly, I haven't heard about Anita Sarkeesian prior to opening this thread and then some googling. A cognitive read, I should say.
So, the credit should go to @SergeTroy for opening Anita and everything related to the problem to me.
About the question in the OP - to me, the more people think about it, the better. Women should be respected both in the real life and in the video-industry. Ideally, I want everyone to look at and treat men and women equelly.
BTW, I've been glad Beamdog have developed male and female characters for BGEE. And to me, Neera and Hexxat - as women - are depicted fine.
What I think is good: dicussion about presenting women in videogames can have positive results in varying how videogames are going to look like. Having more strong female leads will add to the variety. And at the same time, no one will ban or stop making videogames for "strong male gets to rescure beautiful female" fantasy.
What I think is bad: going to extremes. In Anita's case, it would be nice from her, had her stopped using video clips that are not belonging to her, and to notice that from time to time, there are some notable strong female leads. Samus Aran, new Lara Croft, for examples. Especially Lara got a hell of a psychological and emotional development, which is why I liked new Tomb Rider so much.
About extremes in internauts case: remember guys, everyone has right to speak their mind. Everyone has right to feel uncomfortable with something. But that doesn't mean you can overreact and send rape and death treats to other person! Majority of typical internauts are nothing more than trash thought, so I don't ever see them having second thought about their actions.
Anyway, in regards to videogames: I want interesting characters, and I believe she has a good point in that the damsel in distress is such a go-to trope. Very unimaginitive. However, I also dont want writers to include female characters for 'balance' or any outwards pressure. What I do believe is that uncritical use of helpless and fragile women and strong men is a mark of poor understanding of people (Im not saying dont create these characters as there obviously *are* strong men and weak women, just think it through).
I believe the critical view of the videogame culture is good, becuase a broadening perception of women and men seems to move sluggishly at times.
Anyway, I don't consider myself a feminist. Nor am I a masculist by any means. Rather, I don't care about gender at all! What's important is that a person gets the job done and not what shape their chromosomes are.
I don't think there really is such a thing as a 'Masculinist' perse, but I'm too lazy to do much more than finish this post. Bit of a selected text-quote there, think I got what I was interested in replying to. @O_Bruce are you saying that you were bothered by Anita's use of select clips that supported her case without providing a more balanced or contrasti g view, or were you offended by the specific clips used when talking about what did and did not belong to her for use? I think I've heard some complaint before about the use of certain game footage, though I never understood the issue as I'm not aware of any legal bar against. Admittedly, I should probably be trying to sleep now, so, uh nites. :P
I never approved stealing. And using videos of other people in her own videos is like stealing an intellectual property - unless they don't mind it. It doesn't matter what intention she had.
And I'm not offended by lack of balance in her view. I just don't approve of going extremes, be it her or her haters or her supporters. In valuable discussions, multiple point of views are taken into consideration. Also, each sides are equally speaking and listening to others.
For myself, I like Anita Sarkeesian and what she's doing. We need more awareness in the industry about how we're portraying characters, both male and female. It's not just about making "strong female leads", because just making a woman character strong doesn't necessarily make her a good character (and she has some interesting things to point out about Samus's and Lara Croft's recent reboots as well). It's about being socially aware of how a given character fits into the current cultural paradigms with regard to gender, and noticing trends in the medium.
As a viewer I might wish she could present some of the positive growth the industry has made (if for no other reason than maybe being exposed to more games that I hadn't heard of), but as a feminist I can appreciate the need to focus on how far we still have to go, rather than patting the industry on the back for "having a nice go of it".
EDIT: I've been watching some of the videos I hadn't seen, and she does talk about positive progress to give examples of games that move us forward, not back. So it seems like her goal is to first identify the problem, then point out that we're starting to make progress as a sign that the current status quo doesn't have to be permanent.
She mostly focuses on old "rescue the princess!" style games. In the first 10 minutes she's talked about very old games, ancient mythology, and movies from the 1920s... Who even plays Super Mario anymore?
If anything this whole feminism thing is getting ridiculous. I was watching a TV show about the British SAS recently and one of the troopers was a woman...
Who is one of the best fighters in Game of Thrones? A woman.
Who is the real leader of Sons of Anarchy? Jax's mother.
Who is the main character of the Alien movies? A woman.
Who is the main character of the Kill Bill movies? Ninja woman.
Who is the main character of the Resident Evil movies and games? Usually a women.
Who is the main character of the Hunger Games? A woman.
Who is the main character of Divergent? Another woman
And I read recently they're turning Thor into a woman...?
All very popular modern franchises, all with very strong women. When was the last time you saw a movie or played a game that didn't feature strong women?
Really most feminists are just annoying and blow things out of proportion. It's actually so bad I'll probably get banned for calling them annoying. Haha
As I noted in previous posts, men are way worse at portraying women than women are at portraying men. Not sure if its laziness on our part or emotional blindness.
@TheGraveDigger you aren't being serious, right? Do you really want a list of all the 'recent' media that is blatantly regressive? No, representation is still vastly one sided, and pretty much had been for thousands of years. You're doing a great job of portraying why feminists are generally better people though.
She is irrelevant because i never played or saw any real stuff of her!
2: My thoughts as just a person who grew up in the 80s with games
She suxs because she and her henchman doesnt know anything about gaming, games = fun but every person has the right to like what he wants and there is no such thing as the general gamer! Remember the hardcore c64 games which were brutal and funny at the same time and no one complained. Because it was just a game!
You have been fooled if you think it´s different today... no it´s not. But some People want you to believe that games should be like school tools!
Teacher BUSTER my friends!
3: My thoughts as someone who is sick of these stupid aliens in the scene
they and she should be honest and should do yoga because they are irrelevant and contributed no CONTENT anywhere or pushed any techstuff or art to the limit. They use games or specifically the "gaming" press to push political social topics into the minds of young people which is manipulation and abuse!
My hope for the young generation is dont let them mess up your mind with poltical correctness censorship of free thoughts. Do what you want in gaming and let your expression be your first priority. If it is gore and bloody and offensive do it. But be prepared to be bombared and sanctioned but dont censor yourself from these people. Freedom of creativity is the most important thing in a free society as long it´s not totaly mad like a holocaust manager....
And i´m well aware of any changes in the gaming and mod scene. It´s my passion and what i see is a try to censor content on a much bigger picture then just gaming. The kids are their target of manipulation and adults via presure by blackmail and other ugly things we see in recent events. People who gets fired because some evil persons spread lies about them.
And once and for all if you want to support gaming guys check out PRESS PLAY ON TAPE and others who realy love games and use them for their base of creation and remembrance (all the c64 and amiga games remixes etc.). There are dozens of great examples how the real scene loves games. So please... dont lie to me! it s an INSULT! Or who are the guys compared to that fraud who programmed the c64 and amiga emulaters tell me. It´s a joke and i realy am ashamed of you supporting these self worshipping peoples. Shame on you guys for not mentioning the REAL people or scene who creates and loves it but you instead talk about these haters in a positive way.
But admit you cant name any coder who did the emulators but you can name all the new age people of social perfection in gaming. If this is not strange what is strange in a scene of pixels!
Her opinions might be controversial, as many feminist and "genderist" (or whatever you call it) opinions are, but the first rule must be that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and the discussion style among grown-ups should be just that, grown up and responsible. Hate is simply childish. It rather shows that she in fact found a weak point.
It is true that computer games do contain stereotypes of many sorts, and always have. And computer games are made and have been made for a predominantly male audience. Therefore the perceived or real taste of males is what determines the content. In my opinion it is okay to decry that but I just hope that prudery and bigotry will not get the upper hand. A little serenity, please!
Stannis - controlled by a woman
Dragons - controlled by a woman
Jaime - controlled by a woman
John Snow - knows nothing
Littlefinger - getting more and more controlled by a 13 years old girl!
Aria is growing too, i'm sure she will become a strong fighter/assassin in the next book.
@NaturalBornKieler the days of games being the domain of entitled suburban white boys are gone. They arent the majority anymore, and could be expected from entitiled brats, we get death threats over putting less booby in videogames.
Where is Anita gaming related ? Just tell me what she has Created. A Creation that leads to gaming is usually for what you earn respect. You dont earn respect just by telling others what is good and wrong or are we now a days realy so far that people with skills are less interesting then people who can make lots of drama? IF thats the reality im so sorry for a once great little community of people who did stuff and i congrat everyone for their contribution in destroying the meaning of it by opening the door to pretenders. And we will have a great future in modding also because no one cares and gives you any kind of spotlight because other strangers will come first because they have an oppinon!
Im sure we will see lots of great "games" in the future of indy gaming with all kinds of social topics. And the cool or REAl games will get no attention or support. Yes, great! Thanks!
And i must say you can ban me for that i dont care anymore. dont know what went wrong everywhere but i just dont care about political correctness censorship. If thats not welcome then well fare well!