The thing is @iKrivetko women are in a worse situation than Russians; its hard to find games that don't handle female characters poorly. Lots of games don't specificly feature Russians, and thus arent portraying them problematicly.
I do agree with the argument games are way too racially homogenous, and tend to have problematic representations of anyone not white.
In the context of Anita Sarkeesian's video series, it's more that women are always treated to the same tropes over and over again, which is problematic because it suggests that women can only exist as those stereotypes.
But again, at no point does she condemn the developers of these games; she only says that these tropes are lazy and problematic, and they're a lot more prevalent than people realize.
The same is true of a lot of tropes (all Germans are Nazis, all Russians are Communists, all White Men are Misogynist Power-Jocks), but in the case of women it's especially damaging because of its real-world context.
and this is for the new BDSM teens you all want. Thanks to our new fuhrers of social justice! Hopefully you will think of yourself being guilty of sexual depravity in teens by supporting people like this!
Just wanted to point out that the tweet being decried in this blogpost seems like a pretty obvious instance of sarcasm: “i cant wait until 50 Shades comes out & spreads wildly inaccurate info about BDSM to millions of teens!!! #celebrating #FiftyShadesTrailer”. And it has nothing to do with this thread regardless.
Now, to respond to several assertions made in this thread. #1) Reacting to characters or people with sexual interest isn't sexist. I've been watching Graham Stark from Loading Ready Run live stream the game Deus Ex: Human Revolution on twitter for months now. I find Adam Jensen, the game's protagonist, Hot, Yes, as in a "Makes me tingle below the waist" kind of way. No, he wasn't sexualized for women. But I still think he's hot. However, I've seen him turned into a female character in art, and just about every artist that depicted him gave female Adam Jensen ginormous boobs (when, as a male character, he's kinda slender and slim-built (Let's face it, even before the augmentation, he wasn't built like a Gears of War character- he was trim and toned- even the famous shirtless pic of him- he's slender. No female form of him is gonna be packing watermelons at chest height)). In any case, just because I find that character hot doesn't make me sexist. It makes me human.
Yes, I don't get the enormous breasts. They're not attractive: they're just comically large. Like a caricature? When I see a DD+ breasted woman with her boobs bouncing hugely, I whince like a man would if he saw another man get kicked in the crotch.
I find Joanna from Perfect Dark attractive. I find Joanna from Perfect Dark Zero unattractive. Her boobs are bigger and she's showing cleavage. And her hips and waist are way exaggerated (and moved up? o_O). It's more silly than attractive.
Samus went from a B cup to a DD+ cup from Metroid Prime to Metroid: Other M (*shudders*). No reason for it. No continuity in her basic appearance either. (But let's all ignore Other M as a canon game.)
... *sighs* I wish characters would be portrayed of all shapes and sizes. c:
I hear ya. But remember- female gamers are generally not the ones who find the comically ginormous boobs attractive. They are there for the male gamers, not us. I find a range of males attractive, but I do tend to go for the slender, wiry ones rather than the "Shaved Bear in combat gear" type. Occasionally, I like a more muscular guy. But I find Gordon Freeman more attractive than, say Marcus Fenix. (Or a nice Solid Snake- I could get into Solid Snake, so to speak.)
@NWN_babaYaga, I'd reply to your post, but @Dee has already said what I wanted to say here. All I want to add is that you are treating her like she broke into your house, stole your stuff and poisoned your pet. Step it down a couple of notches, dude.
Perhaps I should become a russianist(?) and raise a few hundred grand whining about how Russians are misportrayed in video games and other popular culture.
But the Russians were our (nominal) allies in World War II, and they didn't have the atrocities at the Concentration Camps that the Nazis did. Yeah, we (the US and Russia) aren't allies, but they don't come in for the sheer HATE the Nazis inspire.
I kindda like stereotypes in some movies and games though. I guess the problem is the sheer amount which is so large. I think @LadyRhian is right about the laziness. Kill Bill uses ALOT of clichés but it is very well done and a great movie (that women are fighting is besides the point I guess). And the termiator movies are also great. That some games arent dont take themselves too seriously is fine, but the *intentional* catering to a lizard brain for no other reason than "that's what everyone else does" is just... weird. When you have tons of people working on development why arent there one or two people asking themselves "are the characters interesting". Luckily there are many games coming out these days that seem to have a more thought out way of creating characters these days.
In the context of Anita Sarkeesian's video series, it's more that women are always treated to the same tropes over and over again, which is problematic because it suggests that women can only exist as those stereotypes.
But again, at no point does she condemn the developers of these games; she only says that these tropes are lazy and problematic, and they're a lot more prevalent than people realize.
The same is true of a lot of tropes (all Germans are Nazis, all Russians are Communists, all White Men are Misogynist Power-Jocks), but in the case of women it's especially damaging because of its real-world context.
Quite true. We already hand down a lot of cultural baggage to our kids, "Women are the weaker sex!", "Women are unfit for combat!", "Women's lady parts make them emotional and unreliable.", "Women just aren't that good at math and science…" And they really *are* damaging.
Not every woman wants to participate in combat. But they do serve in armies and armed forces. But what you don't hear much about is the US armed forces problem with rape, which makes even less women want to join. And in some cases, it's fellow soldiers, or those further up the command chain who did it, which makes reporting it problematic. And then there is the culture of blaming women who get raped for somehow inciting it "She was dressed too sexy", "What did she think was going to happen to her if she went into that part of town after dark?" Victim-blaming is never pretty. I mean, imagine, as a man, you go into a convenience store for coffee, and it (and you) get robbed. Imagine how you would feel if many people somehow felt you were complicit in your own being a victim just for going into a convenience store! "Hey, convenience stores get robbed! What did you think was gonna happen when you went in there?" Or "You were dressed in nice clothes- the robber obviously couldn't help but think you were a good mark. You should dress shabbier in the future!" etc. This is somewhat like what a rape victim goes through. But, you see, it misses one thing. Yes, you can dress shabbier. You can stop going into convenience stores. But women can't stop being women. It's a fact of our biology.
What we can do, is stop blaming women for being raped, and put the blame where it belongs- on the rapist. Blaming the victim for her rape implies that men cannot control themselves, and if the lure is great enough, any man will not be able to help himself- he will rape. And I don't think that is anything any man wants to think about himself or his friends.
Yes, there are real world consequences for all this shyte, and the lazy tropes help support this bad thinking.
I kindda like stereotypes in some movies and games though. I guess the problem is the sheer amount which is so large. I think @LadyRhian is right about the laziness. Kill Bill uses ALOT of clichés but it is very well done and a great movie (that women are fighting is besides the point I guess). And the termiator movies are also great. That some games arent dont take themselves too seriously is fine, but the *intentional* catering to a lizard brain for no other reason than "that's what everyone else does" is just... weird. When you have tons of people working on development why arent there one or two people asking themselves "are the characters interesting". Luckily there are many games coming out these days that seem to have a more thought out way of creating characters these days.
This is pretty much how I feel about stereotypes. At their best, they can be entertaining and vivid and make a great tool for telling a good story or driving the point home. (Disney is particularly good at this, for better or worse.) But at their worst, they're lazy and unimaginative, which is why so many creative minds hiss at their mention and condemn their use.
I treat stereotypes the same way I treat adverbs--if you want to use them, use them sparingly, and acknowledge their faults. Don't become reliant on them, but never ever be afraid to show them off if it helps the story.
Character growth and development is a big thing too. I can't tell you how many times I've met a character in a game or story, think to myself "this person is a total stereotype," only to sit back and learn more about the character, watch them change and think, and realize that the stereotype was only at face-value, that there was more to him (or her) than that. (Course, if we're talking good writing, there should be growth and development regardless of any present stereotypes. )
I am not a feminist. That said, I'd hold a door for a woman, I'd never hit one (unless in self defense,) and I'll never talk down to them. That said, all of those same things I'd do to a man as well. All things in equality is the problem. I guess my term would be egalitarian, or maybe a humanist?
My concern is human rights. Women can vote, hold jobs and do much more than they could 50 years ago. One Might even become president and I'm more than okay if that happens. Suffrage was a good thing!
My problem with Feminism is that it focuses on women's issues. But wouldn't it be smarter to focus on ALL issues? Men and women with equal opportunities for both good and bad?
Maybe henpecked men who get abused by their wives could be seen as less of a joke, or can you find me a sitcom where the man is wittier than the woman? If a woman comes at a man with a knife, can she get away with it because he can't defend himself or appear like a brute?
These are also real stereotypes.
Imagine if Jaheira were the subservient wife and Khalid were domineering and stern. Would people react differently?
I've also seen a few videos about Anita where she said that she doesn't actually play video games. It's also a bit troubling that she has over $160k and less than 10 videos. If I got 160K videos I don't know if I'd ever STOP and if I had only 8 videos in 2 years, I'd issue a few apologies.
I just want imagined for a moment: a man comes about saying he wants to talk down about male stereotypes in video games where they're portrayed as nerds or crude jocks or unrealistically muscular. How would his Kickstarter go? Why would his project be seen as such?
I... I hope my points here aren't going to get me in trouble, but I'm just saying that Egalitarianism is healthier for true equality than female empowerment if that makes any sense.
In contrast to radical feminism, radical MRA is also bad. All things kept in check leads to a much safer and more enjoyable world.
I could link to videos by Thunderf00t, or Jordanowen42, InternetAristocrat, SargonofAkkad and other very intelligent people to show the other side of the coin, but honestly, I don't care about this issue or Anita: video game 'sexism' is laughably microscopic compared to the terrors that await outside the First World.
If mainstream feminism wants to make a REAL difference, there's female genital mutilation going on in countries far away and the Burkah is still a law with brutal punishments (death being one of the more merciful ones, sad to say.)
Fight the guys who picket abortion clinics and the crazy government officials who say that foetuses can masturbate. http://jezebel.com/texas-rep-says-abortion-is-evil-because-fetuses-masturb-513998465 No, that's real. A state had a 50% majority vote for that guy who says a woman doesn't own her own body... and that's not an isolated [nut]case.
Again, I'll probably suffer major backlash for my thoughts, but I'll say this: my like or dislike for anyone never, and I mean NEVER has anything to do with their gender.
Perhaps I should become a russianist(?) and raise a few hundred grand whining about how Russians are misportrayed in video games and other popular culture.
But the Russians were our (nominal) allies in World War II, and they didn't have the atrocities at the Concentration Camps that the Nazis did. Yeah, we (the US and Russia) aren't allies, but they don't come in for the sheer HATE the Nazis inspire.
Well, comparing concentration camps (much alliteration, wow) isn't very useful. They weren't particularly fun to be in on either side.
Not much here but it's a fair point that Stalin actually did kill More People of all genders and races than Hitler did, and one is not a defense of the other. The sad thing is that the only real comparison we have is uncertain numbers (I believe Stalin murdered 15 million jews, at least as I recall from my history lessons). There are no images, accounts, or anything else from those camps (gulags?) because of what came after WW2.
stalin and his "red" bolsheviks killed orthodox christians and gave jews an autonomous region. Jews were privileged under the red terror. Churches were burnt down and the priests and nuns were tortured in the most horrific ways. True history is never written down in official approved school books.Try to find it on archive.org i guess it was about the red terror. Sign of the scorpion and the "black book"
You can also just read official statements by churchill and american generals what they thought about the "reds"... its out there for anyone who wants to be educated beyond biased nations own wishfull thinking.
@ NWN_babaYaga don't you have a nice dark hole to shove your head in for the next seven years, I could have sworn your misogynistic bigoted ass was through with this thread and had a kite to fly?
you wouldnt insult me face to face dude so calm down. I was talking about the reds. You can act pretty hard here so it´s ok boy. I can feel your anger and the only thing i get out of it is a smile
Little friend I would insult you face to face even if it did mean I had to stoop. The only thing you are is a gutless coward that hides your childish growing pains behind so much bs. The only thing legitimate about you is the nausea.
and now ? do you think we will ever meet to take it out. And where i ever was a "gutless" coward not sure here in town. But yeah. Your profile surely makes you out like a honest guy of ruff karnage...
@SergeTroy and @NWN_babaYaga Flaming is explicitly against the rules. Take to PM if you can't be civil on the forums--or better yet, drop it altogether.
I'm pretty reasonably certain that the rules are being routinely flouted. As evidenced. By the posts above and over several pages. Comments were made by mods or community managers in regards support of a civil discourse, that this topic would be watched closely? I'm not seeing much more than watching, more a dull apathy.
Okay, @SergeTroy - if you want decisive action, here it is.
Thread Closed. If you want to discuss Anita Sarkeesian's "Tropes Vs. Women in Video Games" series in a civil, non-inflammatory way, feel free to start a new thread. Using feminism, egalitarianism, or Anita Sarkeesian herself as a platform for attacking other people is absolutely not acceptable.
Comments
A Russian villain will generally be played by some bloody Czech bloke at best.
I do agree with the argument games are way too racially homogenous, and tend to have problematic representations of anyone not white.
But again, at no point does she condemn the developers of these games; she only says that these tropes are lazy and problematic, and they're a lot more prevalent than people realize.
The same is true of a lot of tropes (all Germans are Nazis, all Russians are Communists, all White Men are Misogynist Power-Jocks), but in the case of women it's especially damaging because of its real-world context.
@NWN_babaYaga, I'd reply to your post, but @Dee has already said what I wanted to say here. All I want to add is that you are treating her like she broke into your house, stole your stuff and poisoned your pet. Step it down a couple of notches, dude. But the Russians were our (nominal) allies in World War II, and they didn't have the atrocities at the Concentration Camps that the Nazis did. Yeah, we (the US and Russia) aren't allies, but they don't come in for the sheer HATE the Nazis inspire.
Not every woman wants to participate in combat. But they do serve in armies and armed forces. But what you don't hear much about is the US armed forces problem with rape, which makes even less women want to join. And in some cases, it's fellow soldiers, or those further up the command chain who did it, which makes reporting it problematic. And then there is the culture of blaming women who get raped for somehow inciting it "She was dressed too sexy", "What did she think was going to happen to her if she went into that part of town after dark?" Victim-blaming is never pretty. I mean, imagine, as a man, you go into a convenience store for coffee, and it (and you) get robbed. Imagine how you would feel if many people somehow felt you were complicit in your own being a victim just for going into a convenience store! "Hey, convenience stores get robbed! What did you think was gonna happen when you went in there?" Or "You were dressed in nice clothes- the robber obviously couldn't help but think you were a good mark. You should dress shabbier in the future!" etc. This is somewhat like what a rape victim goes through. But, you see, it misses one thing. Yes, you can dress shabbier. You can stop going into convenience stores. But women can't stop being women. It's a fact of our biology.
What we can do, is stop blaming women for being raped, and put the blame where it belongs- on the rapist. Blaming the victim for her rape implies that men cannot control themselves, and if the lure is great enough, any man will not be able to help himself- he will rape. And I don't think that is anything any man wants to think about himself or his friends.
Yes, there are real world consequences for all this shyte, and the lazy tropes help support this bad thinking.
I treat stereotypes the same way I treat adverbs--if you want to use them, use them sparingly, and acknowledge their faults. Don't become reliant on them, but never ever be afraid to show them off if it helps the story.
Character growth and development is a big thing too. I can't tell you how many times I've met a character in a game or story, think to myself "this person is a total stereotype," only to sit back and learn more about the character, watch them change and think, and realize that the stereotype was only at face-value, that there was more to him (or her) than that. (Course, if we're talking good writing, there should be growth and development regardless of any present stereotypes.
My concern is human rights. Women can vote, hold jobs and do much more than they could 50 years ago. One Might even become president and I'm more than okay if that happens. Suffrage was a good thing!
My problem with Feminism is that it focuses on women's issues. But wouldn't it be smarter to focus on ALL issues? Men and women with equal opportunities for both good and bad?
Maybe henpecked men who get abused by their wives could be seen as less of a joke, or can you find me a sitcom where the man is wittier than the woman? If a woman comes at a man with a knife, can she get away with it because he can't defend himself or appear like a brute?
These are also real stereotypes.
Imagine if Jaheira were the subservient wife and Khalid were domineering and stern. Would people react differently?
I've also seen a few videos about Anita where she said that she doesn't actually play video games. It's also a bit troubling that she has over $160k and less than 10 videos. If I got 160K videos I don't know if I'd ever STOP and if I had only 8 videos in 2 years, I'd issue a few apologies.
I just want imagined for a moment: a man comes about saying he wants to talk down about male stereotypes in video games where they're portrayed as nerds or crude jocks or unrealistically muscular. How would his Kickstarter go? Why would his project be seen as such?
I... I hope my points here aren't going to get me in trouble, but I'm just saying that Egalitarianism is healthier for true equality than female empowerment if that makes any sense.
In contrast to radical feminism, radical MRA is also bad. All things kept in check leads to a much safer and more enjoyable world.
I could link to videos by Thunderf00t, or Jordanowen42, InternetAristocrat, SargonofAkkad and other very intelligent people to show the other side of the coin, but honestly, I don't care about this issue or Anita: video game 'sexism' is laughably microscopic compared to the terrors that await outside the First World.
If mainstream feminism wants to make a REAL difference, there's female genital mutilation going on in countries far away and the Burkah is still a law with brutal punishments (death being one of the more merciful ones, sad to say.)
Fight the guys who picket abortion clinics and the crazy government officials who say that foetuses can masturbate. http://jezebel.com/texas-rep-says-abortion-is-evil-because-fetuses-masturb-513998465
No, that's real. A state had a 50% majority vote for that guy who says a woman doesn't own her own body... and that's not an isolated [nut]case.
Again, I'll probably suffer major backlash for my thoughts, but I'll say this: my like or dislike for anyone never, and I mean NEVER has anything to do with their gender.
You can also just read official statements by churchill and american generals what they thought about the "reds"... its out there for anyone who wants to be educated beyond biased nations own wishfull thinking.
Flaming is explicitly against the rules. Take to PM if you can't be civil on the forums--or better yet, drop it altogether.
Thread Closed. If you want to discuss Anita Sarkeesian's "Tropes Vs. Women in Video Games" series in a civil, non-inflammatory way, feel free to start a new thread. Using feminism, egalitarianism, or Anita Sarkeesian herself as a platform for attacking other people is absolutely not acceptable.