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Racial class restrictions?

Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
in Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition
I apologize if this was discussed before, I have much less time than I used to and I only skim the forum topics every now and then.

With IWD:EE announced, I started thinking about the party I'd like to run through the mountains. I was rather fond of idea of unlikely heroes - a troupe of actors of various non-human races, trapped in a situation where they can't just flee the town in the middle of the night and hope for the best.

I was in the middle of constructing this band of misfits, when it hit me: only humans and half-humans can be bards! D:
Or at least they used to.
So, question: can small folk and ugly folk become bards in IWD:EE, and if not, how hard would it be to mod the game so they could?
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Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited October 2014
    Edit: Nevermind
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    @bengoshi
    *blushes furiously*
    Why, thank you, good sir, that's very kind of you. :)
    I'll keep an eye on that thread. It's good to know I'm not alone on the equal-barding-rights front. ;)

    Well, I guess I'll put this 'troupe' idea on hold until Dale Keeper is ready, and put together a different team in the mean time.

    Thank you for assistance! :)
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    edited October 2014
    @CamDawg was kind enough to make a BG(2)EE mod that removes race/class restrictions. I haven't heard him talk about converting it for IWDEE, but it's possible he could be persuaded.
  • IronhaloIronhalo Member Posts: 22
    Wait, you're saying I can finally play my Dwarven Paladin?! @CamDawg where is this mod?
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    edited October 2014
    @Camdawg
    Marvelous! Thank you for this news, and for Tweaks! :)

    By the way, I need to ask: how did you earn Ankheg Destroyer badge? Are there any bugs left in the Realms at all, now? O_O
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Ironhalo said:

    Wait, you're saying I can finally play my Dwarven Paladin?! @CamDawg where is this mod?

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/
  • IronhaloIronhalo Member Posts: 22
    @elminster Thanks! I probably should have checked there first anyway, if I weren't befuddled by lack of sleep. You're a gem.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Yeah, I tried making a dwarven paladin a little while ago and the game crashed. Dunno if that still happens, but they definitely don't meet the requirements.

    Also, thanks for being awesome, @CamDawg.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Is it then the general consensus that all "Actors" need to be "Bards"? I'd have thought that just about anyone could 'Trod the boards' as it were. And then there's always the guy who has to muck out the stalls. I am sure that HE is not a Bard at all. :)
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I think it'd be silly if all actors were bards. Nonetheless, many bards are actors. It would certainly make sense for the party the OP described to have at least one bard.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Most actors aren't adventurers, so they wouldn't have an adventuring class. I would expect most actors who did become adventurers to have some levels of Bard.

    Unfortunately, the BG2EE engine doesn't allow for duel classed bards.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    All actors definitely are not Bards. In ancient times bards were associated with magic, sleight of hand, and illusion as well as music, hence the Bard class' spellcasting and pick pocket abilities in D&D. Not everybody who acts or goes on adventures has a talent for magic.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Shadow keeper and dale keeper will let you do this.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Schneidend said:

    All actors definitely are not Bards. In ancient times bards were associated with magic, sleight of hand, and illusion as well as music, hence the Bard class' spellcasting and pick pocket abilities in D&D. Not everybody who acts or goes on adventures has a talent for magic.

    But those other actors wouldn't be skilled at arms, or have the stealth of a master thief, or a direct line to the gods, either. The vast majority or actors, like the vast majority of ordinary folk, would be classless, or have the "specialist" NPC class in 3rd edition.
  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 403
    Ironhalo said:

    Wait, you're saying I can finally play my Dwarven Paladin?! @CamDawg where is this mod?

    CamDawg said:

    Ironhalo said:

    Wait, you're saying I can finally play my Dwarven Paladin?! @CamDawg where is this mod?

    Almost--dwarves still can't meet the minimum charisma for a paladin.
    Dwarves can however be Blackguards under the mod or you can just Ctrl-8
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited October 2014
    Fardragon said:



    But those other actors wouldn't be skilled at arms, or have the stealth of a master thief, or a direct line to the gods, either. The vast majority or actors, like the vast majority of ordinary folk, would be classless, or have the "specialist" NPC class in 3rd edition.

    Well, yes. I assumed it would be understood I was talking about actors who are also adventurers, since we're talking about an IWD party.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Schneidend said:

    Fardragon said:



    But those other actors wouldn't be skilled at arms, or have the stealth of a master thief, or a direct line to the gods, either. The vast majority or actors, like the vast majority of ordinary folk, would be classless, or have the "specialist" NPC class in 3rd edition.

    Well, yes. I assumed it would be understood I was talking about actors who are also adventurers, since we're talking about an IWD party.
    No, you didn't make that clear. But an actor who is an adventurer is far more likely to be a Bard than a cleric, mage or barbarian. And at least a little more likely to be a bard than a fighter or thief.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:



    No, you didn't make that clear. But an actor who is an adventurer is far more likely to be a Bard than a cleric, mage or barbarian. And at least a little more likely to be a bard than a fighter or thief.

    I disagree. I think it's quite likely for an adventurer-actor to be a Fighter or Thief. As I said before, not everybody has magical aptitude. Also, the real-life analogue we'd be looking at for such an actor character would be a late medieval or early modern player, like Shakespeare and The King's Men. Such actors were often expected to perform complicated fight scenes, and were thus classically-trained swordsman. A number of England's most popular actors were also gigantic bears of men. A Fighter or even a Barbarian are hardly out of the question, and in fact probable.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    A fighter is not just someone who picks up a sword. The class assumes some degree of arms training. Fencing with wooden swords does not equip some to wear heavy armour or execute millitary stratagy. If you where using 3rd edition rules, a Swashbuckler Duelist would be possible. As for the idea of an actor being a barbarian, I would say that was absolutly out of the question. A certain cultural background is required for barbarian, a culture that does not have theatre. Being big does not make you a barbarian. Some barbarians are small.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited October 2014
    Fardragon said:

    A fighter is not just someone who picks up a sword. The class assumes some degree of arms training. Fencing with wooden swords does not equip some to wear heavy armour or execute millitary stratagy. If you where using 3rd edition rules, a Swashbuckler Duelist would be possible. As for the idea of an actor being a barbarian, I would say that was absolutly out of the question. A certain cultural background is required for barbarian, a culture that does not have theatre. Being big does not make you a barbarian. Some barbarians are small.

    I did say they were classically-trained swordsmen, and not just people who pick up swords. I can recall one anecdote where Ben Jonson, a playwright and contemporary of Shakespeare, challenged a man who harshly criticized one of his plays and killed the guy. With a sword. As I said, people in that field were often expected to spar spectacularly on stage, or at least understand the mechanics of such things when writing a play, not just haphazardly slap blade against blade.

    I'll admit, they may not have been known to properly trained to wear armor, though parts such as the ghost of Hamlet's father sometimes wore armor on-stage, but then again my real life examples weren't actors who were also adventurers. So, add an early modern actor's proficiency with weapons to an FR adventurer's practical need for armor, and a 1st-level Fighter with acting chops seems quite plausible to me.

    Nothing about the Barbarian's class description suggests it "requires" anything but being a warrior that can throw themselves into a rage. If Ben Jonson can fly off the handle to the point where he publicly challenges a man to a duel and kills him in plain view in a country where dueling is very illegal, I'd say an adventuring version of him could be a candidate for Berserker, if not Barbarian.

    Hell, 3E Drizzt has Barbarian levels to replicate the sheer ferocity of his Hunter state. He's not part of a "certain cultural background."

    Even if Barbarians required such a thing, their culture certainly does have theater. Skalds and the oral tradition are the progenitors of theater. And, given how close barbarians and the "civilized" peoples of the Forgotten Realms can be (particularly in Icewind Dale), it's not unfeasible that an Uthgart skald could make the transition from clan storyteller to C-list Ten Towns or Luskan actor.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2014
    Heavy armour was hugely expensive. At the time that armour was actually used, no theatrical troup would have been able to afford to use it as a prop.

    You could always come up with bizarre reasons why a character of any class has any sort of background. However, if an actor was to become an adventurer, and actually make use of skills they have acquired from their background, then they are going to be a bard. Under 3rd edition, you could pick up one level to represent background, then level in another class. You could even give them low charisma if you didn't think they should be able to cast spells.

    The 2nd edition Bard is designed to represent an actor's ability to pretend to be another class. They can use most weapons and more commonly available armour through practising for stage fights. This also gives them better thac0 and more hp than someone completely untrained (mage). They are, of course, not as good as someone who spends all their time training with weapons and armour. The Blade kit represents your stage fighting specialist. In 2nd edition Bards have no inherent ability to use magic (I prefer that to 3rd edition). By "acting the role" of a wizard they may be able to learn to cast spells learned from scrolls - but only if they are intelligent enough. In IWD the shortage of scrolls may mean an unintelligent Bard can't cast any spells at all.

    The Celtic mythology aspect of Bards, where they could cast druid spells, was first edition AD&D ONLY. By second edition it had been done away with, the only relic being the silly alignment restrictions.
    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited October 2014
    bengoshi said:

    Indeed, what can be more epic in the snow areas of IWD than a dwarven skald?

    A Half-Orc skald! :p
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    @elminster‌

    I would still take a dwarf. And not because of shorty bonuses and the fact dwarves suit the Norse Mythology more while IWD is full of snow locations.

    Actually, [Spoiler] dwarves just smell slightly better than half-orcs [/spoiler]
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    @bengoshi - Your spoiler is borked.
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