Top Tier? Mid Tier? Bottom Tier? Rate Arcane Spells. IWDEE edition (Currently mage level 2)

elminster

Some time ago on the forum @bbear put up a thread where we gave ratings for all the different arcane spells (there was another one I believe for divine spells that someone else might have put up). That was regarding BG1 and BG2. However, I've found that there aren't that many spell guides for Icewind Dale compared to BG1/2, so I was hoping to see what the community thought of various spells. The enemies you face in Icewind Dale are also different and and as many of you have been discovering there are a number of spells in IWD that work differently compared to BG1/2.

Anywho, just like the old thread the ranking is divided into 3 tiers: top, mid and bottom tiers. Top tiers are the most consistent and effective spells. Mid tiers are outclass by top tiers and other spells, or there is simply no spell slots for them. Bottom tiers are just fillers or spells that put the caster in danger.

A score out of five is given and the spells are ranked by score within each tier.

elminster

I guess I'll start

Top Tier

Armor - 5/5
Burning Hands 5/5 - (largely due to how many trolls you'll encounter)
Identify 5/5 (especially when used with a sorcerer)
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer - 5/5 (lets you cast spells you learn way sooner than you otherwise could)
Spook - 5/5
Grease - 5/5
Chromatic Orb - 4/5
Find Familiar - 4/5 (unlike bg2 it doesn't get better with level)
Friends - 4/5 (money is tight and this lets you save money)


Mid Tier

Shield - 3.5/5 (duration is based on level)
Magic Missile - 3.5/5
Shocking Grasp - 3/5

Color Spray - 3/5
Protection from Evil - 3/5 (only this high because it gives charm protection)
Sleep - 3/5
Expedious Retreat - 3/5
Chill Touch - 2.5/5


Bottom Tier

Larloch's Minor Drain - 2/5
Charm Person - 2/5
Reflected Image - 1/5
Infravision - 0/5

Kenji

Unfortunately "Find Familiar" can only be used once even if there are more than 1 arcane casters in the party. I feel like it is a spell best left used on a scroll or memorized once (a waste of space for sorcerers), the penalty for death of a familiar will still be applied to whoever cast the spell.

As for the spell "Friends", I'm not sure if it's a bug or not but I have noticed no change to prices when my sorcerer used a scroll to boost his charisma from 17 to 22. (The price remained the same when I used my 9 charisma Thief to speak to the merchants)

Otherwise I pretty much agree with Elminster's list.

AlexT

Kenji said:

As for the spell "Friends", I'm not sure if it's a bug or not but I have noticed no change to prices when my sorcerer used a scroll to boost his charisma from 17 to 22. (The price remained the same when I used my 9 charisma Thief to speak to the merchants)

The store prices are based on the Charisma score of the party leader (the person whose portrait is in the topmost slot on the right sidebar). You can change your party leader at any time by selecting a portrait and dragging it to the top slot.

meagloth

Find familiar is a 3/5. Even though there is no main character it can only be cast by the first char created, and it isn't that great anyway.(unless it's changed for iwd from the bg version)
Chromatic orb is a 5/5. I use it more than magic missile with the stun effect being how it is. Identify is ok I guess but now everyone has a pure class bard so it's kinda obsolete.
I generally prefer shield over armor because of the protection from magic missile and now in iwd... That other magic missile spell with the one dudes name. Force missile or something. Otherwise pretty good.

Kenji

AlexT said:

The store prices are based on the Charisma score of the party leader (the person whose portrait is in the topmost slot on the right sidebar). You can change your party leader at any time by selecting a portrait and dragging it to the top slot.

Thanks for clarifying that, I can now finally purchase things at a discounted price!

AlexT

meagloth said:

Find familiar is a 3/5. Even though there is no main character it can only be cast by the first char created, and it isn't that great anyway.(unless it's changed for iwd from the bg version

This was changed for IWD:EE.

Any character can now summon a familiar (if he can use the spell) though you may still only have one familiar per party.

Pibaro

Armor. 5/5???? Did I miss something? Isn't it too much? Become useless later in the game. I'll say 3,5/5

Find familiar. It works only for one character, and it only provide some HP bonus, everything else isn't very useful. 3,5/5

Shield. Protects from magic missile. Many enemies love magic missile, and if you play Insane (not to mention HoF Mode) a single Magic Missile almost kills you. 5/5

Magic Missile. You didn't mention it. Less useful than Chromatic Orb. 3,5/5

Sleep. It's useful only in the very first part of the game. 3/5

Friends. It should work, but you high charisma character should be the leader to get the discount.

elminster

Armor lasts for 45 turns. You can cast it and clear out entire areas with your party and it substantially improves your mages chances of survival. So I think that value is fair. Especially since your access to the kind of robes that you might get in BG (robe of neutral archmagi) is pretty limited before heart of winter.

Shield is lower because its duration sucks compared to Armor (5 rounds/level). With Armor you only take up 1 spell slot/rest, which is a huge advantage.

There are enemies that cast magic missile but not that many and they are later on.

Zyzzogeton

I really don't see why smart party tactics doesn't already make your mage immortal (unless your frontline dies in which case Power Word Reload is going to be cast)

Shield is better for Mages that spend most of the time in the front line as well as solo Mages.

Magic Missile isn't really that good anymore. No Mirror Images or Stone Skins to strip. No Improved Aclarity to turn it into a machine gun. There are better damage skills at high level. Eh.

Identify should come with a disclaimer, anyone with a decent lore score will turn this into a 0/5

Ditto with PfE and Clerics.

Lord_Tansheron

I'd just like to voice my frustration here at Haste causing immediate Fatigue upon expiration. That is just soooo annoying

Not impressed with spells so far, particularly since scrolls are apparently VERY rare. I literally got my mage to 3rd level spells with 0 spells known, and only 1 on 2nd level spells, too. Also, since I'm doing HoF about 99% of the spells are completely useless. Wohoo my Magic Missile did 10 damage to that 100hp goblin! That's quite the performance.

So far the only spell I've been able to use at least somewhat effectively is Horror, though of course it seems that a lot of the time feared enemies just keep on fighting anyway. At this point I'm really hoping that my mage will be vindicated at higher levels and start wrecking stuff if and when I find the right spells...

elminster

Lord_Tansheron said:

So far the only spell I've been able to use at least somewhat effectively is Horror, though of course it seems that a lot of the time feared enemies just keep on fighting anyway. At this point I'm really hoping that my mage will be vindicated at higher levels and start wrecking stuff if and when I find the right spells...

Yea it sucks for mages because Glitterdust is only available from Kieran. At least when it comes to purchasing. Sorcerers on the otherhand can pick it up early and while it won't always work when it does it pretty much totally changes the feel of a battle. Even though it only works for 4 rounds.

Pibaro

My spellcasters usually stay far from the battle, unless they are fighter/mages.
Maybe the first group will use armor, but it's not going to be crucial.
The fighter/mages will use armor until they can use better spells (even if shorter).
In both cases armor is a decent spell but not a game-breaking spell.
In my experience, my mages suffers more from magic missile (or ranged weapons) than from other physical attacks.
And in IWD you reach level 5 quite soon, so you'll be able to cast ghost armor (AC 3).
BUT I see your point. Armor Last one full day, and it's a first level spell. and for some reason I thought Ghost Armor had a longer duration (it's just 1 round per level).

Kenji

Lord_Tansheron said:

I'd just like to voice my frustration here at Haste causing immediate Fatigue upon expiration. That is just soooo annoying

Haste is still, nontheless, a powerful spell that bolsters the whole party (as well as summoned minions) with more attacks/round. I only have it memorized once as it is usually the 'last resort' spell to use along with the priest's Righteous Wrath of the Faithful before the whole party is plunged into exhaustion. My archer gets 6 attacks per round with the messenger of Sseth while hasted.. Though I thought the limit was 5.

Avenger_teambg

I'm surprised by the high rating of shocking grasp.

elminster

Avenger_teambg said:

I'm surprised by the high rating of shocking grasp.

Its way better in IWD than it is in the BG series since it does pretty high damage, has no saving throw, and casts quickly. Its also just straight damage, you aren't actually having to swing at the enemy.

Lord_Tansheron

Isn't it just a worse Magic Missile, basically? MM just deals more damage, and at a higher range.

Or well, I guess Grasp deals more damage on lvl 1 and 2?

elminster

Yea I guess I'll change that one.

Jarrakul

I mostly agree with elminster. Differences below:

Chromatic Orb - 5/5 (Don't other with it early, but by 5th level it's a solid stun spell. The removed save bonus makes it so much better than in BG2.)
Find Familiar - 5*/5 (No good reason not to cast it once. No good reason to ever cast it again.)
Shield - 4/5 (Solid defense against the things most likely to kill your mage. Magic Missile immunity is also fantastic for dealing with Imbued Wights, especially on higher difficulties.)
Magic Missile - 4/5 (Still a solid, fast-casting damage spell, but there aren't quite as many Mirror Images to strip as in BG2. Nonetheless, not a good candidate to skip.)
Armor - 3/5 (Crucial for fighter/mages, otherwise just makes your mage die in 10 seconds instead of 5 and is quickly rendered obsolete by robes/bracers.)
Burning Hands - 3/5 (Solid damage, AOE, and trollkilling, offset by the fast that your mage won't last long that close to the action. As with Armor, better for fighter/mages.)
Identify - 3*/5 (Fantastic unless you have a bard, but let's face it, you probably have a bard.)
Grease - 3/5 (While somewhat useful, grease fails to live up to its BG2 counterpart, and is easily replaced by better spells.)
Friends - 2/5 (Alright if you didn't roll anyone with a high Charisma, but even then, not game-changing. Ultimately forgettable.)
Sleep - 2/5 (Weaker than in BG2 and loses its effectiveness more quickly. The fact that the first major "dungeon" is undead-based doesn't help matters.)
Reflected Image - 2/5 (Not that I'd argue it's *good*, mind you, but it does chump a hit. That's worth something. Kind of.)
Shocking Grasp - 1/5 (Would be 3/5 except that Magic Missile is strictly better for most of the game.)

Zyzzogeton

Armor - 3/5 (Crucial for fighter/mages, otherwise just makes your mage die in 10 seconds instead of 5 and is quickly rendered obsolete by robes/bracers.)

Not even then. Early game, Fighter/Mages are just better off acting as Fighters. By the time they become good spell slingers you'd have access to spells better than Armor.

Dazzu

Armor's best atribute is lasting longer than your rest. Also, Burning hands will outdamage magic missile in a small crowd of enemies at... all levels.

Kenji

Lord_Tansheron said:

Isn't it just a worse Magic Missile, basically? MM just deals more damage, and at a higher range.

Or well, I guess Grasp deals more damage on lvl 1 and 2?

Let's compare things real quick:
Magic Missle:
(1d4+1)/Missle, Extra missle per 2 caster levels, Maximum of 5 missles at level9

Shocking Grasp:
1d8+(1/level), no damage maximum (

Let's compare their damage (neglecting distance) at Level 1, 2, 3, 5, 9, 15, and 18

-Lvl1-
MM: 2-5
SG: 2-9

-lvl2-
MM: 2-5
SG: 3-10

-lvl3-
MM: 4-10
SG: 4-11

-lvl5-
MM: 6-15
SG: 6-13

-lvl9-
MM: 10-25
SG: 10-17

-lvl15-
MM: 10-25
SG: 15-22

-lvl18-
MM: 10-25
SG: 18-25

So Shocking Grasp (damage-wise) is superior from level1 to level4, but starting at level 5 it will be outscaled by Magic Missle until level 18.

So unless people plan to go over level18, shocking grasp is only good for the initial 4 levels provided the mage isn't hacked to pieces on the frontlines! But it will still be a better choice for damage (not distance!) much later in game. Though it takes 18 levels to have the maximum damage potential as magic missle whereas Magic Missle only takes 9 levels to max out its potential, this spell is perhaps at best better for mages to scribe on their spellbook, not for sorcerers.

Edit: To put things in perspectives, 5 missles also mean 5 chances of bypassing %-based magic resistance, whereas shocking grasp only has 1 chance. A creature with magic resistance may resist shocking grasp all at once but it may take at least some damage from magic missle. Combined with magic missle's distance, it's probably still a better choice than shocking grasp throughout the game.

Lord_Tansheron

@Kenji Great analysis, thanks! It's interesting to see the subtle changes in spells compared to their BG versions, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some hidden gem somewhere waiting to be discovered.

elminster

Anyone want to start off mage level 2? I'm going to be away for a bit so if people want to get started discussing it that would be great.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

I'm playing the game and having a blast.

But I don't remember Fireball being so powerful.

Did they tweak some of its hidden, internal mechanics?

It's ludicrously strong! I'd dare say even more so than Skull Trap.

hexxactly

Agree for Elminster for most part. Depends on situation for some. Run a Bard and identify is a 1/5. Don't run a Bard but a chaotic neutral mage (or good alignment with Ferret) Find Familiar is a 5/5 for Cat/Pickpockets early game IWD. Grease and Magic Missiles 4/5. Run a Pally face (PJ), Friends is a 1/5. Rest pretty spot on.

Jarrakul

Okay, second level.

High Tier:
Mirror Image - 5/5 (Easily one of the best defensive spells in the game.)
Web - 5/5 (Good for setting up killing fields, and free action will let your characters move through it. Doesn't work against big enemies, but will still save you butt.)
Chaos Shield 4/5 (Great spell to use with Nahal's, but not worth it on its own. Nahal's is incredibly powerful, though, so Chaos Shield ends up being pretty good.)
Glitterdust - 4/5 (Solid crowd control. Stuff like this is what 2nd level is for.)
Horror - 4/5 (See Glitterdust. Seems weirdly unreliable in its effects, though.)
Stinking Cloud - 4/5 (Good for setting up killing fields. Bad in that it doesn't affect undead.)


Middle Tier:
Cat's Grace - 3/5 (Not bad, but not great. The long duration helps a lot, but powergamed parties will see limited returns.)
Invisibility - 3/5 (Great for scouting if your rogue isn't up to it. Also good for getting your fighters into positions they couldn't get otherwise.)
Melf's Acid Arrow - 3/5 (Decent damage spell, useful for disrupting spells and killing trolls. Not spectacular at either.)
Resist Fear - 3/5 (Somewhat useful sometimes, but a number of other spells provide similar effects, so it's not great.)
Snilloc's Snowball Swarm - 3/5 (Basically pre-fireball. Not bad, not great.)
Strength - 3/5 (Better for high-strength characters than in BG, but worse for everyone else. As such, it loses its primary utility and becomes merely an okay buff for one fighter.)
Agannazar's Scorcher - 2/5 (Not bad when you first get it, and can kill many trolls at once, but ultimately forgettable.)
Blindness - 2/5 (Not bad on its own merits, but is overshadowed by Chromatic Orb. This won't be the last time you hear that.)
Detect Invisibility - 2/5 (There aren't a lot of invisible enemies in IWD, but when there are this spell is handy.)
Ghoul Touch - 2/5 (Oh, look, it's Chromatic Orb but a level higher and melee.)
Knock - 2/5 (Your thief should be able to handle this, with the sole exception of the box in Conlan's smithy, and you might as well just use a scroll for that.)
Ray of Enfeeblement - 2/5 (Chromatic Orb, as usual, is better.)


Low Tier:

Blur - 1/5 (Why would you cast this when you can cast Mirror Image instead?)
Deafness - 1/5 (Blindness does a better job of gimping spellcasters, and Chromatic Orb does a better job of gimping literally everything.)
Decastave - 1/5 (If you're down to whacking enemies with a staff, draining 1d2 points of damage per hit isn't gonna help.)
Detect Evil - 1/5 (It's like using Invisibility to scout, only less informative.)
Know Alignment - 1/5 (Utterly unhelpful.)
Luck - 1/5 (The bonus provided is fantastic, but too broad in its effects to be leveraged in the minuscule duration.)
Power Word, Sleep - 1/5 (No one thing with less than 20 hit points is worth wasting a spell on.)
Protection from Petrification 1*/5 (I honestly don't remember if there are any basilisks in IWD. If there are, this has fringe uses. But overall it's awful.)


?? Tier:
Vocalize - ??/5 (Haven't used this, so I don't know if it can be cast while Silenced. If yes, 3/5. If no, 1/5.)

Kenji

My Level 2 Spell list:

-Top Tier-
Glitterdust 5/5
Snilloc's Snowball Swarm - 5/5
Web 5/5
Blur - 4.5/5
Melf's Acid Arrow - 4.5/5
Mirror Image - 4.5/5
Horror 4/5
Invisibility 4/5
Stinking Cloud - 4/5
Strength 4/5


-Middle Tier-
Agannazar's Scorcher - 3.5/5
Blindness - 3.5/5
Cat's Grace - 3.5/5
Ghoul Touch - 3.5/5
Deafness - 3/5
Luck - 3/5
Protection from Petrification 3/5
Ray of Enfeeblement - 3/5 (4/5 when used against Large opponents such as giants)
Vocalize - 3/5 (I'd still have 1 memorized just in case)
Power Word, Sleep - 2.5/5
Resist Fear - 2.5/5


-Bottom Tier-
Decastave - 2/5
Detect Invisibility - 2/5
Knock - 2/5
Detect Evil - 1/5
Know Alignment - 1/5

OlvynChuru

Jarrakul said:

Low Tier:

Blur - 1/5 (Why would you cast this when you can cast Mirror Image instead?)

Well yeah Mirror Image is better, but who says you can't use both?

elminster said:

I guess I'll start

Armor - 5/5
Shield - 3.5/5 (duration is based on level)

I think Shield is way better than Armor: better missile defense, much shorter casting time AND magic missile protection. Also, although Shield doesn't last as long, it still lasts a really long time. 5 rounds per level ends up being a lot.

Fandraxx

Awesome list. I agree with everything but friends, i bought a lot of armor and weapons along with scrolls and still had around 100k moneyz by the time the game was over.

Endarire

Note that spell rankings, while generally useful, vary by party size, play style, and whether you play on Heart of Fury mode.

In HoF, I hate to run anywhere hostile without [i]shield[/i] - it gives me the AC I need to survive a buncha hits, and it blocks [i]magic missile[/i]s that seem so prevalant from caster enemies. [i]Chromatic orb[/i] is [i]vital[/i] in HoF once I hit Mage level 7 since, on a failed save, it paralyzes a non-Undead foe for [i]13 rounds[/i]!