Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

BG2 Solo SCS Spell Guide

2

Comments

  • SpoCk0nd0peSpoCk0nd0pe Member Posts: 13
    Thank you for this great guide!
    Some things I would like to mention though: Maybe you want to consider fireshield as it blocks druid insect spells (dunno how often you actually need this). The additional resistance and damage are also nice.

    Breaking the action economy is vital for a mage, probably more so in solo mode. Since you can easily set those up when you have a safe place to rest I would mark the level 7 spell sequencer as vital.
    Spook is definitely one of the most useful level 1 spells because of the save penalty.
    Spellstrike was actually the second 9th level spell I took and I didn't regret it. Many mages will put up more then one spell protection and the action economy is very important. It may be better to cast timestop instead if soloing but there are those nasty timestop immune creatures later in the game (but I doubt you will encounter them on a no reload challenge).
    I never knew about the tremendous power of Mislead :)
    Only having tried SCS in party mode, I had no need for Spell Trap on my Sorcerer. By the time I thought about taking it, the staff of magi was available. One cast per day was usually enough. As a side note looking at the chart posted: Spell immunity really really shouldn't protect against breach as it renders every other spell protection except for spell trap and spell shield utterly useless.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,693
    You should only come across druid insect spells at most twice: in the Druid Grove, against Kyland Lind and maybe Dalok. Spell Immunity can protect against insect spells as well. Mostly Fire Shield was modified to nerf the player's druids.

    lolien
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    1) Dispel Magic: 2

    Chance of dispelling all temporary magic (other than spell protections) in the area of effect, including your own. Chance is 50%, +5% per level difference between the caster and the target if caster is a higher level than the target, -10% per level difference if the caster is a lower level than the target. Min 1% chance either way. One check made per person in the area of effect, either all temporary effects are dispelled or none. Remove Magic is superior since it does not dispel your own protections.
    _________
    It depends on level of the caster of dispel magic and the level of the target?
    I.e.
    My 20 lvel mage casts slow on a 10 level fighter.
    A 15 level enemy wizard casts dispel magic on the fighter. Is it going to be 50%+25% right? It doesn't matter at all if a 20 or a 50 level mage casted slow, am I right?

    ___________________________
    ___________________________
    2) Haste: 3

    Small area of effect buff, doubles movement rate and rounds up attacks per round to the next nearest integer (ie +1 APR if a whole number or +0.5 APR if a fraction; so 2 APR is increased to 3 APR, but 2.5 APR is also increased to 3 APR).
    _________
    This is indeed insightfully!!! Is this true? I really didn't have a clue about that. I always thought +1 APR

  • athanasathanas Member Posts: 27
    edited January 2015
    Pibaro said:

    1) Dispel Magic: 2
    It depends on level of the caster of dispel magic and the level of the target?
    I.e.
    My 20 lvel mage casts slow on a 10 level fighter.
    A 15 level enemy wizard casts dispel magic on the fighter. Is it going to be 50%+25% right? It doesn't matter at all if a 20 or a 50 level mage casted slow, am I right?

    No. Success of Dispell Magic depends on level of the caster of the Dispel and the level of the caster of spell being dispelled (level of the target does not matter). (at least it should be like this - I have not tested it)
    So, your example would give 25% chance of spell being dispelled.

  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    Demivrgvs said:

    @Jaheiras_Witness Spell Revisions goal surely isn't "to make everything hideously powerful", quite the opposite, but I admit the 3E-like save penalties was a big mistake (and thanks to players feedback now SR has a much better save system).

    Just so you know, for the new version of SR (which is also BGEE compatible) we reverted that and thanks to a huge amount of beta testing we have finely tuned the save penalty or bonus (re-introduced for few cases) of each spell.

    The saving throw categories also become very random, you have saves vs death, breath and spell almost randomly, instead of a consistent save vs spells.

    It's not random at all man:
    - diseases, poisons, death effects, etc. require a save vs. death/poison
    - reflex-based effects require a save vs. breath
    - mind-affecting effects require a save vs. spell
    - alterations effects require a save vs. polymorph/petrification
    Does it look "random"? :)

    Btw, I'm obviously biased, but I'm 100% sure that if you give a chance to V4 there's no way you'll regret it. ;)
    I'm not dissing your work in any way, clearly Spell Revisions is a huge undertaking, you have put an immense amount of work into it and it's a mod enjoyed by many people.

    I haven't seen the latest version of Spell Revisions but I have two comments:

    1) Save penalties should be rare and commensurate with the effect and duration; for example, Domination is clearly a stronger effect than Confusion (Chaos) and therefore has a smaller saving throw penalty and affects only one opponent instead of multiple. Horror affects multiple opponents and therefore has a save bonus (+2) whereas Spook only affects one opponent for just 3 rounds and has a large saving throw penalty (-6). That kind of balance should be maintained and large saving throw penalties should be avoided.

    2) Save vs different saving throws is fine in principle but unfortunately doesn't work with 2E saving throw tables.

    Let me give you one simple example: which class should in theory have the best chance to dodge reflex type effects? I think most people would agree with Rogue.

    Which class has the worst save vs breath of all classes? By far, the rogue.

    I think for balance purposes therefore, all saves caused by spells should be vs spell instead of the different categories you propose. Otherwise you are unfairly penalising the rogue and mage classes in particular.

    lolien
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598

    Thank you for this great guide!
    Some things I would like to mention though: Maybe you want to consider fireshield as it blocks druid insect spells (dunno how often you actually need this). The additional resistance and damage are also nice.

    Breaking the action economy is vital for a mage, probably more so in solo mode. Since you can easily set those up when you have a safe place to rest I would mark the level 7 spell sequencer as vital.
    Spook is definitely one of the most useful level 1 spells because of the save penalty.
    Spellstrike was actually the second 9th level spell I took and I didn't regret it. Many mages will put up more then one spell protection and the action economy is very important. It may be better to cast timestop instead if soloing but there are those nasty timestop immune creatures later in the game (but I doubt you will encounter them on a no reload challenge).
    I never knew about the tremendous power of Mislead :)
    Only having tried SCS in party mode, I had no need for Spell Trap on my Sorcerer. By the time I thought about taking it, the staff of magi was available. One cast per day was usually enough. As a side note looking at the chart posted: Spell immunity really really shouldn't protect against breach as it renders every other spell protection except for spell trap and spell shield utterly useless.

    While the "action economy" as you nicely term it is indeed very important, in my experience Spellstrike is a wasteful spell, especially considering its level.

    It is rare that an enemy mage will put up Spell Trap + Spell Immunities + Minor Globe; and even if they did, Ruby Ray + Spell Thrust would work just as nicely as Spellstrike, for the cost of one additional action.

    I'm not disputing one additional action can often be the difference between life and death, but bear in mind the opportunity cost: for that Spellstrike you could have cast Time Stop instead and "gained" a net 2 rounds.

    So Spellstrike is a powerful spell, there's no disputing that; it's just that in comparison to the power of other level 9 spells, it doesn't stand out as much. Bear in mind also that there are, what, 4 opponents in the whole game that are immune to Time Stop?

    lolien
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    This spell guide is now available to download in Word form for anyone interested:

    http://www.filedropper.com/bg2soloscsspellguide

    If anyone wants to submit it to gamefaq, Sorcerer's Place etc, feel free...it's freely available for the community as far as I'm concerned.

    JuliusBorisovlolienAndreaColombo
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    athanas said:

    Pibaro said:

    1) Dispel Magic: 2
    It depends on level of the caster of dispel magic and the level of the target?
    I.e.
    My 20 lvel mage casts slow on a 10 level fighter.
    A 15 level enemy wizard casts dispel magic on the fighter. Is it going to be 50%+25% right? It doesn't matter at all if a 20 or a 50 level mage casted slow, am I right?

    No. Success of Dispell Magic depends on level of the caster of the Dispel and the level of the caster of spell being dispelled (level of the target does not matter). (at least it should be like this - I have not tested it)
    So, your example would give 25% chance of spell being dispelled.
    Actually in this eample it would be a 1% chance of successful dispel, since it's -10% per level below.

    So level 20 mage casts Slow.
    Level 15 mage tries to dispel.
    Chance is 50% - (5*10%) = 0%, but there is a minimum chance of 1%.

    If the level 15 mage casts Slow and the level 20 mage tries to dispel, then the chance is 50% + (5*5%) = 75%.

    But yes, the level of the target is effectively irrelevant.

    Bear also in mind that all scrolls are cast as level 10 and potions as level 12 (I believe there's a tweakpack component that alters the caster level for items to be in line with the user, but it only works if you have mage levels).

    lolien
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315

    I haven't seen the latest version of Spell Revisions but I have two comments:

    1) Save penalties should be rare and commensurate with the effect and duration; for example, Domination is clearly a stronger effect than Confusion (Chaos) and therefore has a smaller saving throw penalty and affects only one opponent instead of multiple. Horror affects multiple opponents and therefore has a save bonus (+2) whereas Spook only affects one opponent for just 3 rounds and has a large saving throw penalty (-6). That kind of balance should be maintained and large saving throw penalties should be avoided.

    2) Save vs different saving throws is fine in principle but unfortunately doesn't work with 2E saving throw tables.

    Let me give you one simple example: which class should in theory have the best chance to dodge reflex type effects? I think most people would agree with Rogue.

    Which class has the worst save vs breath of all classes? By far, the rogue.

    @Jaheiras_Witness I agree on both points, that's why:

    1) SR V4 uses that AD&D-style save penalty system again. The 3rd Edition syle system I was using was indeed a big mistake (especially the big penalties on already powerful high lvl spells). Your examples are spot on, and V4 save system applies save bonuses/penalties following those guidelines.

    2) Kit Revisions added tweaked saving throw tables and when SCS is intalled over Revisions mods all creatures in the game get patched to use those saves. I could probably add those save tables to SR too, just in case players install SR and not KR. Regardless, I admit the whole system works as intended only when Revisions and SCS are installed together, but vanilla's save tables were so random (take a close look at them, they make NO SENSE) that even without proper adjustments SR save system is fine.

    semiticgoddessYgramullolien
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    That sounds great :).

    Yes, 2E saving throw tables are nonsense. I think you should go ahead and change the saving throw tables in SR and not rely on people installing KR, that would make your revised saving throw system work.

    Do you have a link to SR v4? The G3 site still links to 3.1. I'd especially be interested in reading v4 spell descriptions if you have completed documenting those.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315

    That sounds great :).

    ...

    Do you have a link to SR v4? The G3 site still links to 3.1. I'd especially be interested in reading v4 spell descriptions if you have completed documenting those.

    Sure, especially if that means I may get some feedback. :smile: I'll send you a PM.

    Jaheiras_Witnesslolien
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    Thank you and you are welcome. I need to update the descriptions for Secret Word and Breach after latest discoveries in the no-reload games threads. Namely:

    Secret Word does not remove Globe of Invulnerability. You need Pierce Magic for that.

    Breach does not bypass SI Abjuration.

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisovlolienAndreaColombo
  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    I'm used to using breach and pierce magic but good to know this guide as SCS changes some of the magic "rules" form vanilla BGII and know the mage battles will be the challenge and will have to prebuff but should be fun (or really frustrating!).

    lolien
  • VaxMiniVaxMini Member Posts: 3
    edited November 2015
    @Jaheiras_Witness Great guide! I'm currently running a Dragon Disciple Sorcerer and really appreciate the insight.

    I would like to throw my two cents into the ring regarding Grease. I have found it to be fairly useful for the following reasons:

    1) The movement penalty is applied even if the save is made. (I believe you fall prone for a round on a failed save, but I've only really paid close enough attention to the slowing part).

    2) The grease sticks to you even after you leave the area and continues to penalize movement. This allows you to cast it between yourself and bruiser-type enemies, draw them through it without entering the area yourself, and either evade if you are squishy, or apply hit-and-run tactics if you are melee-type.

    3) SCS makes large creatures immune to Web but not Grease. Being big and strong may allow you to snap a web strand, but it won't keep you from slipping :smiley:

    Looks like I was wrong about the movement penalty always being applied. I must have simply been seeing a lot of failed saves. The other two points are correct though, to the best of my knowledge.

    Post edited by VaxMini on
    JuliusBorisovathanas
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @semiticgod any chance to get something similar for Spell Revisions? It would really help me out. :)

  • Livegood118Livegood118 Member Posts: 48
    Can anyone confirm that in the most recent versions of SCS, as per the OP, that Spell Immunity: Abjuration definitely doesn't protect against Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Warding Whip, Pierce Shield and Spell Strike which are the Abjuration based spell-strippers?

    I distinctly remember from one of my last playthroughs having to strip mages that cast SI: Abjuration with multiple Ruby Ray of Reversals and Rods of Spellstriking but maybe I'm just imagining things.

    semiticgoddess
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315

    Can anyone confirm that in the most recent versions of SCS, as per the OP, that Spell Immunity: Abjuration definitely doesn't protect against Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Warding Whip, Pierce Shield and Spell Strike which are the Abjuration based spell-strippers?

    I distinctly remember from one of my last playthroughs having to strip mages that cast SI: Abjuration with multiple Ruby Ray of Reversals and Rods of Spellstriking but maybe I'm just imagining things.

    SI:Abj never blocked those spells in vanilla. SI:Abj not even blocked Breach.

    SCS tweaks Breach to be blocked both by SI:Abj and Spell Deflection/Turning, but doesn't make SI:Abj block spell removals (aka Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Warding Whip, Pierce Shield and Spell Strike).

    JuliusBorisovsemiticgoddessGoturalAndreaColombo
  • Livegood118Livegood118 Member Posts: 48
    Oh ok. Guess I was a bit stupid then.

    What order are spells protections dispelled in – highest level first I presume?

  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    Spell Shield is always dispelled / negated first. After that it depends on the spell. Spells that dispel a single protection (eg Secret Word or Ruby Ray) take out the highest level protection spell (that they are eligible to dispel) first. Spell Thrust takes out all level 5 or below protections, Spellstrike takes them all out (other than if a Spell Shield is in place).

    Great feedback and experience semiticgod, thanks for sharing :). Point 31 is the most important of all. One thing to note though for fighting in cramped quarters: Invisibility is your best friend. Weirdly SCS mages don't use True Sight all that much (though they often cheat-cast Oracle). If you need to wait out protections but there's nowhere to run, just swig Invisibility and wait. All my solo SCS runs (especially with warriors) rely extensively on Invisibility. I buy every potion I can find and use them whenever needed, to get out of a tight spot, to heal, and to wait out spells. Invisibility is king in SCS.

    JuliusBorisovsemiticgoddessAndreaColombo
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    The only thing I'm never sure about is Spell Shield vs Spell Strike because their descriptions are contradictory.

    Spell Shield :

    "When this spell is cast the wizard is protected from the next magical attack against him. The spells that this protects the wizard from are:

    Spell Thrust
    Secret Word
    Breach
    Khelben's Warding Whip
    Lower Resistance
    Pierce Magic
    Ruby Ray of Reversal
    Pierce Shield
    Spell Strike"

    Spell Strike :

    "When this spell is cast at a target creature, it will dispel all of the magical protections that surround that creature. This includes:

    Minor Spell Turning
    Minor Globe of Invulnerability
    Spell Immunity
    Globe of Invulnerability
    Minor Spell Deflection
    Spell Turning
    Spell Shield
    Spell Deflection
    Spell Invulnerability
    Spell Trap"

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,693
    @Gotural: I never liked that inconsistency.

    In SCS, Spell Shield will block Spellstrike, which in that case will do nothing besides remove Spell Shield. So, if your enemy has Spell Turning, SI: Abjuration, and Spell Shield, and you cast Spellstrike, the enemy will be left with only Spell Turning and SI: Abjuration. If the enemy doesn't have Spell Shield, it will remove both Spell Turning and SI: Abjuration.

    The description for Spellstrike is the wrong one, not the description for Spell Shield.

    GoturalJuliusBorisov
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 598
    Demivrgvs said:

    @semiticgod any chance to get something similar for Spell Revisions? It would really help me out. :)

    This reminds me that you asked me also for feedback a while ago and were kind enough to send me your spell descriptions to look at. I did start going through them but have just been busy on other stuff for a while and I did not get very far.

    What I have done is go through the level 1 spells and outline my thoughts on how they should be amended. My feedback is below. I should make it absolutely clear that I am not in any way "telling" you to make these changes, this is just how I would change the spells for balance and gameplay (if I had any modding capability that is!). Feel free to use any or none of the feedback as you wish: opinions are always subjective and it is your mod ultimately, so you should be the one to decide what you like and do not like. Moreover, some of the changes may be difficult to modify and therefore may not be feasible.

    If you find this feedback useful, I would be happy to continue and look at the next spell level and so on. Let me know your thoughts.

    Principles

    First of all, these are the principles I have considered in analysing the revised spells.

    1) We will not be constrained by D&D canon, whether 2nd edition, 3rd edition or whatever. Since we are modding to rebalance gameplay, we should feel free to change spells as required to best fit our understanding of how the game mechanics play out.

    2) Gameplay requires rebalancing and arcane magic should be made slightly less powerful. Ultimately if I had my way and the capability, resources and time to create a proper gameplay mod, I would rebalance many aspects of the game, including races, classes, kits, mechanics etc. Indeed I know mods for some of these aspects already exist or are being developed. However for the below I have assumed that the game mechanics remain "as is". Therefore the tweaks I would propose would make arcane magic (overall) *slightly* less powerful.

    3) While the overall aim would be to make arcane magic slightly less powerful, many individual spells would be made more powerful and more attractive. My aim would be to make every spell unique and interesting, so that players do not always select the same old spells (Magic Missile, Mirror Image, Stoneskin etc). I believe this is also your intention with the Spell Revisions mod? By extension, if this aim were achieved, it would automatically redress some of the balance between sorcerer vs mage: if more (or even all) spells are highly desirable, then the sorcerer truly has to sacrifice flexibility for power. We all know that this does not really happen with vanilla spells since every spell level has a handful of spells which are patently more attractive than the rest, and that is what makes sorcerers currently more powerful than mages.

    4) All spells should be scaleable for caster level in some respect (and generally only in 1 respect), whether that is duration, effect, damage etc. The logic I have used below is that spells should scale by spell level + 10 - that is, level 1 spells reach maximum power at caster level 11, level 2 spells reach maximum power at caster level 12, and so on up to level 10 spells which reach maximum power at caster level 20. No spell scales beyond caster level 20. This is summarised below.

    Spell Level: Maximum Caster Level Scaling

    Spell Level 1: Caster Level 11
    Spell Level 2: Caster Level 12
    Spell Level 3: Caster Level 13
    Spell Level 4: Caster Level 14
    Spell Level 5: Caster Level 15
    Spell Level 6: Caster Level 16
    Spell Level 7: Caster Level 17
    Spell Level 8: Caster Level 18
    Spell Level 9: Caster Level 19
    Spell Level 10: Caster Level 20

    I much prefer logical scaling to the haphazard and random scaling that the vanilla spells use, where for example Larloch's Minor Drain does not scale at all, Magic Missile scales to 9, Fireball scales to 10, Sunfire scales to 15 and so on.

    5) The logical saving throw per BG2 canon must be used for spells - in the vast majority of cases, this is save vs spell. We cannot use alternative saving throws, such as trying to approximate 3rd edition rules by having breath as a proxy for reflex or petrify as a proxy for fortitude etc. This simply does not work for 2nd edition saving throw tables. If we were to change the saving throw tables, and I do have some ideas on how to do that, then it would be fair to use different saving throws - but I have assumed that is not happening in my feedback below. Therefore, unless there is good reason to use an alternative saving throw, such as part of a spell's function being an alternative saving throw (eg my revised Chromatic Orb spell), I will assume the logical BG2 saving throw is the one that is tested, which per the above is usually save vs spell.

    6) No saving throw modifiers if at all possible, unless a spell is significantly over or underpowered for its spell level. I dislike saving throw modifiers since they are nearly always subjective and illogical, and it is far easier to rebalance spells in other ways than to apply an arbitrary modifier. The logic I will use is that if a spell effect is significantly overpowered for its spell level, the save gives a bonus; if significantly underpowered, the save has a penalty. In either case, the modifiers should be small.

    7) Use the logical school for the spell depending on the type of effect created, and not worry too much about balancing out how many spells from each school exist in each spell level. In saying that, we should nevertheless try to ensure that there is at least 1 spell from each school in each level.

    8) Increased casting time for some spells which should logically take some time to cast. While I agree on the general balance of casting time approximately = spell level, with logical exceptions for spells such as Power Words, I also think that some spells should take slightly longer to cast based on their effect or what would be involved to cast. Prime candidates are Enchantments (influencing or attempting to apply a status effect on another creature), some Conjuration/Summoning spells (calling forth a creature or effect from elsewhere), some Abjurations and Divinations (generally buffs rather than debuffs), and some Alterations (time required to modify). These changes should not have a major gameplay impact, other than (rightfully) making some spells easier to disrupt and making some buffs not instantly castable, which contributes to making arcane magic slightly less powerful.

    9) For offensive (red) spells, I have tried to be as specific as possible which are party friendly and what happens if cast on neutrals. In all cases, neutral characters should become hostile if they take any damage from the party, and I will not bother to repeat that for damage-dealing spells. For offensive spells which do not directly cause damage (eg Sleep), I have specified the impact on neutrals and on party members in the area of effect.

    10) Scroll caster levels need to be rebalanced to take proposed changes into consideration. This might be difficult to modify; if it is possible, I would recommend scrolls of level 1-3 spells should be at spell level +5, scrolls of level 4-6 spells should be at spell level +7, and scrolls of level 7-9 spells should be at spell level +9. These changes are summarised below.

    Spell Level: Scroll Caster Level

    Level 1: Caster Level 6
    Level 2: Caster Level 7
    Level 3: Caster Level 8
    Level 4: Caster Level 11
    Level 5: Caster Level 12
    Level 6: Caster Level 13
    Level 7: Caster Level 16
    Level 8: Caster Level 17
    Level 9: Caster Level 18

    Level 1 Spells Feedback

    Grease

    Change duration to 4 rounds + 1 round per level (max 15 rounds at level 11+)
    Increase casting time to 5
    Increase area of effect to 20' radius
    No save
    Not party friendly, does not make neutrals hostile

    Change of effect: I would make this a tactical spell that reduces movement but does nothing else. Remove the knock-down effect, instead all movement in the area of effect is slowed by 50% and there is no saving throw - exceptions apply to incorporeal and flying creatures as you rightly identify. Other than reduced movement rate while in the area of effect, this spell has no ill effects.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1: 5 rounds
    Level 2: 6 rounds
    Level 3: 7 rounds
    Level 4: 8 rounds
    Level 5: 9 rounds
    Level 6: 10 rounds
    Level 7: 11 rounds
    Level 8: 12 rounds
    Level 9: 13 rounds
    Level 10: 14 rounds
    Level 11+: 15 rounds

    Mage Armour

    Change school to Abjuration
    Reduce duration to 4 hours

    Change of effect: Base AC6, +1 per 3 additional levels (max AC3 at level 10+). Modify other armour spells to ensure there is no crossover.

    Scale = Effect

    Level 1-3: AC6
    Level 4-6: AC5
    Level 7-9: AC4
    Level 10+: AC3

    Burning Hands

    This is overpowered at low levels and then does not scale; for example at level 5 you could do 5d4 damage to multiple enemies without save when (vanilla) Magic Missile would only be doing 3d4+3 damage to one enemy (and my revised Magic Missile would only do 1d8+1 damage at level 5).

    Change of effect: damage should be 1d6 + 1 point per level (max 1d6+11 at level 11) to all in area of effect, save vs spell for half damage. Not party friendly.

    Scale = Damage

    Level 1: 1d6+1
    Level 2: 1d6+2
    Level 3: 1d6+3
    Level 4: 1d6+4
    Level 5: 1d6+5
    Level 6: 1d6+6
    Level 7: 1d6+7
    Level 8: 1d6+8
    Level 9: 1d6+9
    Level 10: 1d6+10
    Level 11+: 1d6+11

    Charm Person

    Change duration to 3 rounds + 1 round per 3 additional levels (max 6 rounds at level 10+)
    Increase casting time to 5
    Does not make neutrals hostile (even if successful and duration expires)

    I agree with a save vs spell at +2 bonus.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1-3: 3 rounds
    Level 4-6: 4 rounds
    Level 7-9: 5 rounds
    Level 10+: 6 rounds

    Colour Spray

    Change school to Conjuration
    Not party friendly, makes neutrals hostile

    This spell is too complicated IMO with regard to level checks and an arbitrary 22HD limit. I suggest simplifying this spell to apply an effect based on caster level.

    Change of effect: all in the area of effect must save vs spell or suffer an effect based on caster level as follows:

    Level 1-3: dazed for 2 rounds (-2 to THAC0 and AC)
    Level 4-6: blinded for 2 rounds (-4 to THAC0 and AC)
    Level 7-9: sleep for 2 rounds (awaken if hit)
    Level 10+: stun for 2 rounds

    Scale = Effect (as above)

    Obscuring Mist

    I am not keen on this spell, I do not believe you should be able to impact an opponent's THAC0 without granting a saving throw, let alone to this scale and to multiple opponents. It is also illogical if the penalty applies only to opponents and not to party members.

    I would remove this spell and reinstate the Blindness spell, which is a fine spell IMO that should be available.

    Blindness
    Level: 1
    School: Illusion
    Range: Long
    Duration: 4 rounds + 1 round per level (max 15 rounds at level 11+)
    Casting Time: 1
    Area of Effect: 1 creature
    Saving Throw: Spell negates

    Single target illusion spell, save vs spell or be blinded for 4 rounds + 1 round per level (max 15 rounds at level 11). Makes neutrals hostile. Blindness causes -4 to THAC0 and AC.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1: 5 rounds
    Level 2: 6 rounds
    Level 3: 7 rounds
    Level 4: 8 rounds
    Level 5: 9 rounds
    Level 6: 10 rounds
    Level 7: 11 rounds
    Level 8: 12 rounds
    Level 9: 13 rounds
    Level 10: 14 rounds
    Level 11+: 15 rounds

    Friends

    This spell is too weak IMO, especially at higher levels.

    Change duration to 1 hour

    Change of effect: CHA increase is based on caster level. Not stackable.

    Level 1-3: +3 CHA
    Level 4-6: +4 CHA
    Level 7-9: +5 CHA
    Level 10+: +6 CHA

    Scale = Effect (as above)

    The revised duration and stronger effect at higher levels should make this spell more worthwhile for certain dialogues and for shopping.

    Protection From Petrification

    Change duration to 1 turn per level (max 11 turns at level 11+)
    Increase casting time to 1 round

    Change of effect: as well as providing absolute protection from petrifying attacks, this spell also grants +2 to saving throws vs paralyse/poison/death and petrify/polymorph for the duration of the spell.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1: 1 turn
    Level 2: 2 turns
    Level 3: 3 turns
    Level 4: 4 turns
    Level 5: 5 turns
    Level 6: 6 turns
    Level 7: 7 turns
    Level 8: 8 turns
    Level 9: 9 turns
    Level 10: 10 turns
    Level 11+: 11 turns

    This spell is now worth casting for the saving throw bonuses alone.

    Identify

    I think there are 2 options with this spell.

    Option 1 is to leave as is - the spell does what it is supposed to do, albeit it does not scale and soon becomes redundant once lore levels are high enough.

    Option 2 is more radical and I do not know if it is possible to code this. If it is, I would amend this spell to provide a bonus to lore and thief detection skills (although the bonuses to thief skills would only apply for thief/mages since thieves are the only ones who get the "detect" interface button).

    School: Divination
    Range: Self
    Duration: 1 hour
    Casting Time: 1 round
    Area of Effect: Caster
    Saving Throw: none

    Effect scales per caster level as follows:

    Level 1-3: +10 lore, +10% to find traps and detect illusion skills
    Level 4-6: +20 lore, +20% to find traps and detect illusion skills
    Level 7-9: +30 lore, +30% to find traps and detect illusion skills
    Level 10+: +40 lore, +40% to find traps and detect illusion skills

    I thought about adding a THAC0 bonus too, but that would result in too much crossover with the True Strike spell below.

    Scale = Effect (as above)

    True Strike

    I really like this idea but the spell needs to have more to it to make it truly worthwhile.

    Change duration to 3 rounds + 1 round per 3 additional levels (max 6 rounds at level 10+).
    Increase casting time to 1 round

    Change of effect: +4 THAC0 and +2 damage for the duration, critical hit range expanded by 1 (critical hit on 19-20 or 18-20 if already expanded by single weapon style or two handed weapon style).

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1-3: 3 rounds
    Level 4-6: 4 rounds
    Level 7-9: 5 rounds
    Level 10+: 6 rounds

    Magic Missile

    Reduce the number of missiles but increase damage per missile to compensate. Fires 1 missile plus +1 additional missile per 5 additional levels (max 3 at level 11+), each missile does 1d8+1 damage.

    Scale = Effect

    Level 1-5: 1 missile (1d8+1)
    Level 6-10: 2 missiles (2d8+2)
    Level 11+: 3 missiles (3d8+3)

    Protection From Evil

    I would make this a generic spell that incorporates the reverse (Protection From Good) and which protects against certain effects and spells rather than provide any AC bonus (via enemy penalty to hit). Also completely drop any demon-warding properties (which you already have).

    Change duration to 4 rounds + 1 round per level (max 15 rounds at level 11+)
    Increase casting time to 1 round

    Change of effect: provides immunity to all charm/domination effects, all fear/panic effects, and to Feeblemind for the duration of the spell. Also grants +2 to saving throws vs rod/staff/wand and spell for the duration.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1: 5 rounds
    Level 2: 6 rounds
    Level 3: 7 rounds
    Level 4: 8 rounds
    Level 5: 9 rounds
    Level 6: 10 rounds
    Level 7: 11 rounds
    Level 8: 12 rounds
    Level 9: 13 rounds
    Level 10: 14 rounds
    Level 11+: 15 rounds

    Shield

    I would change this to a defensive spell that provides protection against normal and magical projectiles and some protection against breath weapons. It does not directly improve AC (since that is covered through Mage Armour).

    Change duration to 4 rounds + 1 round per level (max 15 rounds at level 11+)
    Increase casting time to 1 round

    Change of effect: +2 AC bonus vs missile weapons, +2 to saves vs breath, and blocks magical missiles created by the following spells: Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, Sol's Searing Orb (add to this list if there are other spells that fire a magical projectile). Note that this spell does not directly block missiles created by spells that require a hit roll to strike (such as Melf's Minute Meteors, Energy Blades, Magic Stone, Fire Seeds etc), but the +2 AC bonus vs missiles applies to avoid being hit.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1: 5 rounds
    Level 2: 6 rounds
    Level 3: 7 rounds
    Level 4: 8 rounds
    Level 5: 9 rounds
    Level 6: 10 rounds
    Level 7: 11 rounds
    Level 8: 12 rounds
    Level 9: 13 rounds
    Level 10: 14 rounds
    Level 11+: 15 rounds

    [Note that between Protection From Petrification, Protection From Evil and Shield, it is now possible to get a +2 bonus to all saving throws from level 1 arcane spells; however while Protection From Petrification and Protection From Evil can be cast on others, Shield affects the caster only].

    Shocking Grasp

    I would make this mechanically the same as other touch-attack spells and simplify as follows.

    Change school to Alteration
    Change duration to 1 turn
    Increase casting time to 3

    Change of effect: any successful hit in melee does 1d4 + 1 point per level (max 1d4+11 at level 11+) electrical damage. On a successful hit, the opponent must also save vs wand or be stunned for 1 round. Gives +4 to hit and considered a +1 weapon.

    Scale = Damage

    Level 1: 1d4+1
    Level 2: 1d4+2
    Level 3: 1d4+3
    Level 4: 1d4+4
    Level 5: 1d4+5
    Level 6: 1d4+6
    Level 7: 1d4+7
    Level 8: 1d4+8
    Level 9: 1d4+9
    Level 10: 1d4+10
    Level 11+: 1d4+11

    Sleep

    Change duration to 3 rounds + 1 round per 3 additional levels (max 6 rounds at level 10+).
    Increase casting time to 5
    Change area of effect to 20' radius
    Party friendly, neutrals are impacted but do not become hostile when they awaken

    Change of effect: all opponents and neutrals in the area of effect must save vs spell or fall asleep. Sleeping creatures awaken on damage. There is no immunity from HD but normal sleep immunities (elves, undead, dragons etc) apply as usual.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1-3: 3 rounds
    Level 4-6: 4 rounds
    Level 7-9: 5 rounds
    Level 10+: 6 rounds

    Chill Touch

    Make this mechanically the same as the revised Shocking Grasp spell (but school remains Necromancy, not Alteration)

    Duration: 1 turn
    Casting Time: 3

    Change of effect: any successful hit in melee does 1d4 + 1 point per level (max 1d4+11 at level 11+) cold damage. On a successful hit, the opponent must also save vs petrify or be slowed for 2 rounds. Gives +4 to hit and considered a +1 weapon.

    Scale = Damage

    Level 1: 1d4+1
    Level 2: 1d4+2
    Level 3: 1d4+3
    Level 4: 1d4+4
    Level 5: 1d4+5
    Level 6: 1d4+6
    Level 7: 1d4+7
    Level 8: 1d4+8
    Level 9: 1d4+9
    Level 10: 1d4+10
    Level 11+: 1d4+11

    Chromatic Orb

    I suggest simplifying this spell by making it a fun, unpredictable spell that does variable types of damage with a variable saving throw for half damage. No status effects.

    Change school to Evocation
    Range: Long
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Casting Time: 1
    Area of Effect: 1 creature
    Saving Throw: Special

    Change of effect: this spell does 1d6+1 damage per 2 levels (max 6d6+6 at level 11+) with a save for half damage. The damage type and saving throw depends on the orb. A single, random orb is created each time the spell is cast (no multiple orbs). The different orbs are as follows.

    White: Electrical, save vs wand for half
    Aquamarine: Magic, save vs spell for half
    Red: Fire, save vs breath for half
    Green: Acid, save vs death for half
    Yellow: Poison, save vs death for half
    Violet: Physical (Crushing), save vs breath for half
    Blue: Cold, save vs petrify for half

    These changes would make this a unique spell as damage type, damage range and saving throw tested vary considerably.

    Scale = Damage

    Level 1-2: 1d6+1
    Level 3-4: 2d6+2
    Level 5-6: 3d6+3
    Level 7-8: 4d6+4
    Level 9-10: 5d6+5
    Level 11+: 6d6+6

    Larloch's Minor Drain

    Improve the damage and healing slightly to make this spell scaleable and better value at higher levels.

    Change of effect: does 1d6 + 1 point per 2 levels damage (max 1d6+6 at level 11+), the damage inflicted heals the caster, with any temporary HPs above the caster's maximum lasting for 1 turn.

    Scale = Damage

    Level 1-2: 1d6+1
    Level 3-4: 1d6+2
    Level 5-6: 1d6+3
    Level 7-8: 1d6+4
    Level 9-10: 1d6+5
    Level 11+: 1d6+6

    Reflected Image

    I really like this revision, the intention is spot on. I would make a slight tweak to the duration and clarify the effect as follows.

    Change duration to 3 rounds + 1 round per 3 additional levels (max 6 rounds at level 10+).

    Creates 1 illusionary image which remains for the duration of the spell unless dispelled or detected. The image does not disappear when hit. There is a 50% chance that the caster or the image is targeted. However the image does not protect in any way against AoE damage (Fireball, Cloudkill etc), AoE effects (Web, Stinking Cloud, Horror, etc) or single target spells that cause a status effect rather than damage (eg Charm Person, Spook etc). The image only protects against targeted physical and magical attacks that cause damage. Cannot be cast multiple times or if under the effect of Mirror Image.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1-3: 3 rounds
    Level 4-6: 4 rounds
    Level 7-9: 5 rounds
    Level 10+: 6 rounds

    Find Familiar

    Change of effect: I would remove all bonus HPs granted by familiars - the familiars are useful enough on their own without providing a significant HP boost on top. Instead, the caster gains +1 DEX while the familiar is alive (perception bonus). The bonus DEX is lost if the familiar dies and the caster also loses 1 CON permanently if that happens. There is no need for additional HP damage if the familiar dies. If possible, remove the PC-only restriction and make available to all mages.

    Spook

    I would make the duration scaleable and remove any saving throw penalty.

    Change duration to 3 rounds + 1 round per 3 additional levels (max 6 rounds at level 10+).
    Makes neutrals hostile if cast on them

    Change of effect: straight save vs spell to resist (no modifier). Agree with immunities for undead, non-intelligent, blind, creatures immune to fear, creatures who can naturally see invisible, those under effect of True Sight etc.

    Scale = Duration

    Level 1-3: 3 rounds
    Level 4-6: 4 rounds
    Level 7-9: 5 rounds
    Level 10+: 6 rounds

    Level 1 spells by school

    Universal: 1 (Find Familiar)
    Abjuration: 4 (Mage Armour, Shield, Protection From Evil, Protection From Petrification)
    Alteration: 1 (Shocking Grasp)
    Conjuration: 2 (Grease, Colour Spray)
    Divination: 2 (Identify, True Strike)
    Enchantment: 3 (Charm Person, Friends, Sleep)
    Evocation: 3 (Burning Hands, Chromatic Orb, Magic Missile)
    Illusion: 3 (Blindness, Reflected Image, Spook)
    Necromancy: 2 (Chill Touch, Larloch's Minor Drain)

    JuliusBorisovDemivrgvsSerg_BlackStrider
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @Jaheiras_Witness that's more infos/ideas than I was hoping. Thanks man! :) If you are willing to go on maybe it's worth separating this discussion from this topic, no?

    I'll try to reply more in depth asap (I'm falling asleep now).

    P.S No need to write down this:
    Level 1: 5 rounds
    Level 2: 6 rounds
    Level 3: 7 rounds
    ...
    When you already says "1 round/lvl". Less time to write, less wall of text to read. ;)

    semiticgoddess
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    edited December 2015
    I won't quote because the amount of text would be insane. Let's start...

    1) I don't consider SR "constrained" by PnP but I prefer to stay close to it because imo it helps to make the system feel "familiar" to many players instead of "a mod thing write by a random dude where I have to re-learn everything".

    2) Item Revisions and Kit Revisions are complementary to SR, but let's leave them out from the discussion considering you are not familiar with them.

    3) You pretty much described SR's main goal.

    4) A lot of spells remain useful the entire game without "scaling" imo.

    5) I told you SCS makes good use of Kit Revisions save tables, I'll add the same table to SR for those who skip KR (I should have done it before!).

    6) I do not fully agree. Save modifiers are really useful to create multi-layered spells, add some variety or to balance certain effects (e.g. take Charm Person and Spook, charming is so much better that duration alone cannot balance it imo, that's why save modifiers are there). I'll point this out better when we discuss specific spells.

    7) I obviously try to assign the most appropriate school to each spell even though sometimes it's not so easy to pick one (e.g. Prismatic Ray could easily belong to 2-3 schools considering all its dmg and effect types). Giving at least 2 spells to every school for each spell level is A MUST for SR, and I'm proud to say V4 will achieve this (except Divination at higher levels where I could only assign 1 spell per lvl).

    8) Casting time isn't necessarily = spell lvl within SR. Most of the time it is, but as you say some spells have casting time 1, 5 or full round depending on other factors.

    9) Non-dmg spells not counting as 'hostile' could lead to potential exploits (e.g. using spells on neutral "soon to become hostile" targets before the actual fight) but it may be worth trying out for the next build.

    10) Within IR stuff like scrolls (as well as wands, potions, etc.) are kinda expensive. Scroll 'caster lvl' should be high enough to make their use appealing imo. I admit the fixed 'caster lvl 10' makes little sense (I left it there assuming players could use tweakPack to alter it), but I would probably increase your suggested values a little bit.

    Now, level 1 mage spells...

    GREASE: increased casting time in exchange for bigger AoE makes sense, but it turns the spell into just another large AoE spell. Deciding to switch from the current state (CS 1, 10' AoE) and your suggested one (CS 5, 20' AoE) would require more feedback from players. Vanilla's knockdown can stay imo because the save modifier makes it really easy to avoid. The added reduced movement rate is already the most important aspect of this spell within SR.

    MAGE ARMOR: I do tried to "modify other armour spells to ensure there is no crossover", that's why Ghost Armor is an Illusion spell within SR. ;)

    BURNING HANDS: I agree, it could scale a bit better, but I also think it should be more damaging than MM. It can affect multiple targets within SR, but its AoE is very small, requires the mage to be at close range, and uses a slightly less appealing dmg type. MM has long range, hits multiple times and uses magic dmg!

    CHARM PERSON: CS 1 might be too good yes, but I fear that CS 5 and +2 save modifier would make this spell almost useless mid-late game, don't you think? The real problem imo is that the opcode doesn't work as it should (you should not have control over the target) and unfortunately BG2 used this spell for a single dialog option in the entire game.

    COLOR SPRAY: I agree it's a bit overcomplicated, I just made it as close as possible to AD&D but I'll think about making it more simple. Stun effect would be OP while sleep would make it overlap with Sleep. I think the current effects are both more unique and balanced for the spell lvl.

    OBSCURING MIST: I rarely replace pre-existing spells, I did this because the original spell was almost OP against the AI (most AI scripts cannot effectively react to it and turn the spell into a cheap HOLD MONSTER which isn't even stopped by CC), and at the same time blindness is almost irrelevant for PCs (your sight is not affect as long as you have one ally around). The mist surely requires some improvements (e.g. it's not party-friendly anymore, and I do asked beta tester's help to balance it) but it's hard for me to imagine Blindness back.

    FRIENDS: you have an old build because this spell no longer exist (its only purpose was getting an easy discount from vendors making the economy harder to balance - btw that's what charm could have offered as a dialog option sometime). Its "spot" has been filled with MONSTER SUMMONING I.

    PROTECTION FROM PETRIFICATION: this spell never existed in PnP and I removed it (green scrolls and potions are available to perform its very limited task). I've "replaced" it with EXPEDITIOUS RETREAT.

    IDENTIFY: I don't see the need to tweak this.

    TRUE STRIKE: other players suggested similar tweaks and overall I agree they would make the spell much more "usable". I never fully tweaked it as I truly wanted because the current implementation is as close as possible to PnP. Yeah, you could say I was constrained by PnP here. :D

    MAGIC MISSILE: I wonder what other "hardcore/veteran" players here think about it (e.g. @semiticgod ). I always considered it extremely good but not OP. Personally I would not touch it.

    PROTECTION FROM EVIL: while I hate that evil casters have little use of this (AI could benefit from a Protection from Good variant, but what about evil PCs?) I think my hands are tied on this unless we want it to become a more "generic" PROTECTION.

    SHIELD: I already tried to differentiate it from Mage Armor (the melee variant) by focusing its role against missiles (+4 AC vs missiles) but I'm not convinced about expanding its MM immunity to more similar spells because it would start to overlap with SR's Protection from Missiles.

    SHOCKING GRASP: I'll make it work as the current Cause Wound spells do within V4 (aka the charge expires on the first successfull hit but you retain the spell on missed hits) but overall I think I did a good job with it adding the stun effect. I never managed to fully decided if touch spells should be blocked by PfMW or not, but I do think the "count as +1weapon" makes little sense here. You should be able to use it against any monster imo.

    SLEEP: mmm...even if SR's Sleep lets affected targets "wake up when hit" I fear that completely removing the HD limit could make it really too good. SR's HD limit is kinda simple anyway - you cannot affect creatures more powerful than you - no?

    CHILL TOUCH: I was indeed thinking of making it more similar to Shocking Grasp in terms of game mechanic. Btw, I'm fine keeping the cold dmg type, but it should actually be negative energy (aka magic dmg type) imo.

    CHROMATIC ORB: what's wrong with the current implementation?

    LARLOCH'S MINOR DRAIN: your numbers are pretty much identical to SR, but keep in mind that "vampiric effects" cannot be effectively implemented as dice rolls (e.g. 1d6). That's why I opted to make it scale by 2, from 2 to 10.

    REFLECTED IMAGE: I'm not convinced of what I did instead (it overlaps with V4 Physical Mirror and IR's Cloak of Mirroring) and I think I will "replace" it with a sort of PHANTASMAL FORCE (aka a weak illusionary summon - not sure if I can code it as a copy of the caster because I cannot use mislead/PI/simulacrum opcode).

    FIND FAMILIAR: Kit Revisions will make it an innate for mages. Overall, I think this spell should have never existed unless properly implemented as a sort of mini NPC.

    SPOOK: this doesn't need much tweaking imo. Vanilla's -6 save modifier was too good imo, but right now the spell seems spot on.

    JuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,693
    @Demivrgvs: I've upgraded to EE and probably won't be using vanilla much anymore. When does SR for EE come out? I remember only so much from the handful of incomplete SR runs I've done. To answer one of your questions, I see nothing to change about Magic Missile. It's a consistently useful spell, but it's not broken. The damage isn't too extreme and it's blocked by MR and MGOI and Shield already.

    I think you should use the EE-specific opcode "Remove Effects by Resource" to prevent SR EE spells from stacking. In vanilla, the "Protection from Spell" prevents refreshing buffs by re-casting them, which is an issue for short-duration spells.

    Also, I don't think I ever mentioned: True Strike stacks the last time I used SR. I assume this is because it only lasts 6 seconds, but Improved Alacrity and Minor Sequencer allow you to stack the effects. This would make Cleric/Mages very, very effective with Harm.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @semiticgod the current build is fully compatible with EE and very polished thanks to the infinite 1 year long beta testing.

    I don't want to use EE-only opcodes unless strictly "necessary" because my mods need to run on both EE and the original trilogy. Btw, I have EE too now, but ToBEx still offers a few cool things that for some absurd reason EE didn't included.

    True Strike stacking is not intentional, but "exploiting" it to make sure you can land that critical touch spell is pretty much the main goal of its current implementation (+10 thac0 is an almost sure hit already). If instead we end up giving it a short duration as discussed above than yes, the stacking would be a problem, but nothing a "Protection from Spell" cannot prevent. Speaking of which, what's the problem with that opcode? Is it only that you have to wait the buff to expire before buffing again, or am I missing something?

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,693
    @Demivrgvs: I thought the EE SR hadn't come out yet. Excellent!

    The protection from spell opcode does in fact mean you have to wait for the spell to end before you renew it. Resist Fire/Cold, for instance, might run out halfway through a fight, and to renew it, you'd have to wait until it ran out, which would require checking the Record screen or your portrait icons every 6 seconds to make sure you weren't casting it too early or too late.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,595
    Demivrgvs said:

    Btw, I have EE too now, but ToBEx still offers a few cool things that for some absurd reason EE didn't included.

    I really do hope that with release of SoD there will be lots of cool stuff for modders added to the game, including missing ToBEx features (like concentration checks).

Sign In or Register to comment.