It's sort of... half a solution. I'd really really LOVE to see a HoF mode for BG2, for example, which on top of SCS and the likes would finally bring it to an actually challenging level.
SCS is basically what we're missing in IWD. Can has Ten Town Tactics plz? >_>
@Abel The majority of damage spells don't stack. Skull traps are an exception, not the rule.
@Gotural Sure, you can stack contingencies and triggers and whatnot. Your mage waltzes into a room (say, one of the towers in the Severed Hand), fires everything off, and kills all the mobs. Congratz, you've just cleared a room (double gratz if you've managed to do it without murdering the rest of your crew with splash damage). Now you've got 4 more to go. And that's just one tower, of one hub area. What the hell are you going to do now, rest? Because you sure as hell can't kill anything in an efficient manner, since you have a 6-second pause in between every spell, of which most of them hit like a wet noodle.
Meanwhile, a fully decked out fighter-mage will saw through that same room, and he'll do it without endangering his allies. It may take him 30 seconds longer to clear it, but he doesn't need to rest. All he needs is his 10 APR (via items and Imp. Haste), stoneskin, blur, and mirror image - all spells which he himself has access to. And when he's done murdering everything, he goes up the stairs and does it again. And again. And again. Without pausing. Ever. He hits for ~50dmg. per strike, and he does 10 of them in a round. You really think 1x trigger+contingency once every 5 maps comes even close to that kind of output? Really?
Also, your comment about playing with a full mage party makes no sense. You can also stack a melee-oriented party and do just as well, if not even better. In fact, dual- and multi-classed fighter mixes make *the* most powerful class combinations in IWDEE, period. There's huge amounts of XP to be had, so level caps aren't even an issue. Try a kensai(7)-mage, and then get back to me.
@Zyzzogeton Listen bro, no one's forcing you to take part in this thread.
If you can't stand my 'whining', then feel free to engage in conversation elsewhere.
But if there's one thing I can't stand from people, it's unfounded bullshit, especially when they have no idea what the blazes they're talking about. Your mage owns HoF? Really? You pwn early-game HoF with your mage? I'd absolutely LOOOOOOOOOVE to see you upload a vid of yourself clearing out HoF mobs during early-game with your uber mages who, how did you put it, "obliterate mob packs". Them 15d6 skull trap really murder HoF mobs, don't they? Especially when saving throws reduce them to 8d6. Mmmm, 48 damage sure puts a huge dent in a 250HP mob. Yeah, sure thing...
And what's that about front-line melee you're saying?
Oodles of HP? Buddy, mobs melt under melee assault.
Fighters don't need mage support. Mages are debuff dispensers in HoF. In their current incarnation, all they're good for is spamming crowd control spells. Mage buffs suck. Outside of Haste (which was nerfed into the ground with a +7 fatigue penalty) for getting around maps quickly, and Imp. Haste (which is single-target and isn't available until later, depending on how/when you start HoF), they're terrible at party buffing. Clerics have them beat by a mile. Clerics also have a plethora of self-only roid spells that turn them into combat monsters.
A pure-class fighter may suck, but no one rolls with those.
Try playing a kensage, or a fighter/cleric, or a zerker dual, or any of the other uber combinations.
All of the former will OBLITERATE a 200HP HoF mob in the time it your mage mage to cast a *single* 10d6 spell.
Mage spell damage doesn't *lag* behind physical one - it's practically non-existent. Vancian magic systems make for absolutely terrible spellcasting mechanics. If you're penalizing a damage-dealer with limited spell slots and 1-round pauses between spells, then you *have* to give them insane damage output or they become gimped. How can you not see this? Your argument about utility doesn't mean jack because clerics have a ton of utility, yet they make for amazing healers *and* combat roid monsters.
Sure, you can rest after literally every fight, and stack your sequencers and triggers and contingencies and whatnot, but that's not fluid gameplay. You can also cower behind summoned minions and watch as one AI side fights the other. If you enjoy that kind of play style, then go for it, no one's judging you, but at least have the courtesy to consider that your way isn't the only way, let alone the best way. And by 'best', I mean most efficient, which it certainly isn't.
Your mage owns HoF? Really? You pwn early-game HoF with your mage? I'd absolutely LOOOOOOOOOVE to see you upload a vid of yourself clearing out HoF mobs during early-game with your uber mages who, how did you put it, "obliterate mob packs".
Cast Monster Summoning to draw aggro
Cast Web x2
Cast Skull Trap over and over.
Or cast Monster Summoning, cast Emotion Spells on summons, cast Haste. Send them to mobs.
Fighters don't need mage support.
Oh really now?
So 6 pureclass Fighters can finish HoF?
Well this is something I'd like to see.
And even if this was possible, would they have an easier time than a combination of Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids, and maybe a Mage or two tossed in?
Mages are debuff dispensers in HoF.
Sounds like Mage support to me
Oodles of HP? Buddy, mobs melt under melee assault.
Without any kind of spellcasting backup? Oh this is hilarious
Try playing a kensage, or a fighter/cleric, or a zerker dual, or any of the other uber combinations.
And what makes these classes great is Fighter damage supplemented by Magic. Mage support.
Good thing then that Mages have other spells. Last I checked not a single spell level was composed of purely direct damage spells
Sure, you can rest after literally every fight, and stack your sequencers and triggers and contingencies and whatnot, but that's not fluid gameplay.
And Fighters without spellcasters to heal them or summon stuff to tank mobs will be sleeping for years or chugging down potion after potion.
Your point?
Spellcasters do many things other than deal damage, Fighters only do one thing, deal damage. Fighters scaling well to HoF while Spellcasters lagging behind in damage is fair. Because if Fighters didn't do good damage in HoF then all they're good for is tanking which is a pointless advantage since Spellcasters already summon their own tanks.
If spellcasters were able to sustain good damage the way Fighters do, then the only point of Fighters in HoF would be to make the game harder by adding an extra body or class to soak up XP.
@Zyzzogeton I already said that if your idea of fun is having mobs tanking while you sit back spamming debuffs and the odd AoE spell, then there's no point in you posting in this thread. It's not even a thread about mage utility or overall usability, just their damage output.
A mage character has 3 pillars comprising it - the 1st is utility (invisibility, haste, etc.), the 2nd is crowd control (debuffs like fear, confusion, and so on, as well as minion summoning and aggro redirection), and the 3rd is damage output. In IWDEE HoF mode, this third pillar is non-existent, no matter how many mobs you summon or how many protections you layer over your frontliners, as neither of those invalidate the fact that DAMAGE OUTPUT RELATIVE TO MOB HEALTH IS UTTER GARBAGE. Can you grasp that simple fact?
You can roll an arcane spellcaster and have it be useful most of the time if you play them as supporters -- and this was never the point of contention, nor did I ever say otherwise -- but they are NOT GOOD DAMAGE DEALERS! Do you understand that? That's what the entire thread is about. Just like rogues in BG2 do a lot of awesome things, but pulling their weight in combat isn't one of them (at least not until they get UAI).
Why I'm even arguing with you is beyond me, when it's clear you lack basic reading comprehension.
And nowhere did I say that fighters own the game. Nowhere!
But a self-buffed cleric/fighter does not need a wimpy mage to buff him.
Neither does a kensage. Both of those combinations excell on their own.
And yes, they absolutely WRECK enemies, and yes, they do so on their own, without backup!
While your puny mage is sitting behind a wall of mobs and spamming various debuffs, a well-itemized kensage will mow through a throng of enemies, and he'll do it on his own, because not only does he have insane survivability, he also has insane damage as well. Ditto for the fighter/cleric, with his roid spells and an absolutely bonkers amount of damage-mitigating ones as well.
Vanilla fighters do indeed suck, but any combination of fighter and another class yields a superior warrior.
Simply because it merges fighter THAC0 and APR and high HP with self-roid clerical or self-protection mage spells.
And a mixed party of 6 fighter/something *WILL* have a much easier time and be more efficient and have less down time and expend less consumables and other resources than a mage-heavy party. This is the polar opposite of IWD2 and its own HoF mode where mages rule supreme during the late-game. But you'd know that if you took 10 seconds to use your head, instead of writing silly things in a thread you don't want to be in anyway.
And you've still not provided video proof of your mages blasting mobs to smithereens. Sitting behind a wall of summons and buffing THEM with haste while debuffing the enemies is not what one has in mind when one reads statements like "obliterating mob packs". That's a summoner approach, not a nuking one!
Finally, your last point about spellcasters having less damage to balance out their other uses is wrong on a number of levels, but I'll just point out one - in a Vancian magic system, it doesn't matter how many uses one's character has, nor how much potential is locked in their spellbook; all that matters is what spells you're currently able to cast with that character. You have a limited amount of spell slots, and if you're using your mage as a damage-dealer, than those spell slots are physically incapable of holding support spells at the same time. So that character, instead of debuffing and supporting, is dealing damage, hence his utility at that time is 0.
Yes, you can mix and match spells, and have some damage and some utility, but that's far from efficient. Which is why people have designated roles for their characters, such as tank, buffer, debuffer, tactical assassin, healer, etc. If your mage's spell slots are filled with damage spells, then s/he can't support because s/he can't access the support spells locked away in a Vancian system spellbook. This isn't WoW, where you have access to all spells all the time, and the only constraints are cast time and mana.
So if you're not supporting, and you're trying to deal damage, what happens when your spells aren't up to snuff?
That's right, you can't contribute. While the fighter is hacking away with 10 APR, the mage is sitting on the sidelines and tickling enemies with 10d6 spells. Hence, s/he's forced to go into utility/support. Which means there is less CHOICE, and you are FORCED to play a certain way. This is bad! Why? Because it pigeonholes spellcasters into certain roles, restricting their freedom.
Loss of choice and diminished degrees of freedom are always a bad thing in a video game.
Read this for a thorough explanation of character roles and party assembly:
But a self-buffed cleric/fighter does not need a wimpy mage to buff him.
And a Fighter/Mage will not need a Fighter to swing swords for them.
Nor will a Fighter/Cleric need a Fighter to swing maces for them
Vanilla fighters do indeed suck, but any combination of fighter and another class yields a superior warrior.
And any combination of Mage/Cleric/Druid with Fighter will yield a spellcaster capable of performing everything a Mage is good for and outputting a steady stream of damage.
And a mixed party of 6 fighter/something *WILL* have a much easier time and be more efficient and have less down time and expend less consumables and other resources than a mage-heavy party.
And a mixed party of casters with Fighters will have a much easier time and be more efficient and have less down time and expend less consumables and other resources than a Fighter-heavy party
all that matters is what spells you're currently able to cast with that character. You have a limited amount of spell slots,
Good thing then that Mages summon mobs that stick around and serve as additional bodies to buff to even drive their contribution to the party's damage output even higher.
Damage dealing isn't just swinging a sword, but putting all sorts of buffs on that sword.
Yes, you can mix and match spells, and have some damage and some utility, but that's far from efficient.
And what's even less efficient is a Fighter party with no spellcasters
So if you're not supporting, and you're trying to deal damage, what happens when your spells aren't up to snuff?
So if you have no Mages to debuff enemies, no Clerics to heal you, the mobs still have a hundred or so HP left what happens when the mob drives your HP down to 10?
That's right, you can't contribute.
That's right, you're dead.
While the fighter is hacking away with 10 APR,
10 APR? That's 50 damage from Emotion: Hope and Emotion: Courage right there.
Without the Mage the Fighter wouldn't be getting a +5 to damage.
And let's say there's 5 Fighters with 10 APR each. That Mage is now doing 250 damage per turn.
Spellcasters already deal lots of damage per turn through their buffs, debuffs, and summons. Just because a Fighter/Mage can fight and cast spells means nothing, because it's the same with Fighters. They drop dead without magic to help them.
You keep bringing up the Fighter/Mage and fail to realize that in HoF this is how Fighters and Spellcasters work together efficiently. The Fighters fight, the spellcasters buffs. Take either one away and the one left is much worse. So sure Spellcasters without Fighters lose an extremely good source of constant damage to apply their buffs on, but Fighters without Spellcasters drop dead.
If you want to mod your Spellcasters to deal more damage, sure, but don't hide it under some silly pretend design or balance issues.
The amount of false dichotomies you manage to squeeze into a single post is absurd.
FYI, a fighter/mage is a single character, and self-buffing is not utility+support as you believe it to be.
Furthermore, you keep talking about pure fighters as if I'm somehow championing them. I'm not. I keep telling you I'm not, yet you won't let go. It's laughable. The entire point of this thread was to illustrate the fact that damage-oriented arcane casters couldn't keep up in HoF. If you push them into utility and support, it's not an issue, but their lack of damage-dealing capability is. Nor does that obviate their usefulness in other roles. Which I keep repeating, and you keep ignoring and fixating on something I never said in the first place.
You either have no clue how the game works, or are just looking for an empty, pointless circle-jerk.
I dedicated 3 of my posts pointing out your flaws in reasoning, yet you've still managed to derail the thread.
Congratulations, I guess. Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary.
But whatever, I'm done talking to you anyway.
P.S. Still waiting on that clip of your epic HoF-killer mages, lolololol.
FYI, a fighter/mage is a single character, and self-buffing is not utility+support as you believe it to be.
A Fighter/Mage will still cast Emotion: Hope and Courage on their party.
A Fighter/Mage will still cast Mass Invisibility on their party
And nothing is stopping a Fighter/Mage or a Fighter/Cleric from casting summons.
All of that is utility and support.
And there's a reason why Multiclass and Dualclass characters are, in general, better than single class characters in HoF.
You went with a single class Spellcaster, so it's your fault you have a character that can't do as much sustainable direct damage as the rest of your party. Picking a Sorc in HoF is about getting access to utility Arcane spells early in exchange for having another Fighter multiclass in your party.
That's the trade off.
Furthermore, you keep talking about pure fighters as if I'm somehow championing them. I'm not. I keep telling you I'm not, yet you won't let go.
And yet you keep comparing Fighter damage to Spellcaster damage. Fighters can only deal damage. If you somehow think that Spellcasters being unable to properly deal damage is wrong. If Spellcasters start dealing good damage, what good is a Fighter for?
All Fighters are good for is dealing damage in HoF. They can't tank properly without help from a spellcaster, even a Sorcerer has Mirror Image, Stone Skin and summons to tank for them.
If Spellcasters can just do damage dealing like a Fighter, what's left for the Fighter?
The entire point of this thread was to illustrate the fact that damage-oriented arcane casters couldn't keep up in HoF.
You mean you whining your Fireball and Skulltraps can't kill things as well as dual wield long swords.
It's no different from how a thread about how Fighters can't survive in HoF without the help of spellcasting would be whining about how Fighters can't do it all in HoF.
If you push them into utility and support, it's not an issue, but their lack of damage-dealing capability is. Nor does that obviate their usefulness in other roles. Which I keep repeating, and you keep ignoring and fixating on something I never said in the first place.
but I honestly think that having damage-oriented casters becoming obsolete in the higher difficulty modes is not a hallmark of good design.
That's literally saying the game is badly designed because Spellcasters can't do everything amazingly well by themselves in HoF. They already buff, debuff, summon, and somehow the game is badly designed because it didn't let spellcasters do massive amounts of consistent damage.
So by your logic, a class that does everything well in a game where there are multiple classes is "good design"
Still waiting on that clip of your epic HoF-killer mages, lolololol.
Why should I, when there's already a video on YouTube of a guy soloing the entire original IWD game in HoF with a Mage/Cleric from Level 1?
If a single M/C starting from Level 1 can do it, a party of spellcasters exported at Level 15 would wipe the floor with it.
@Zyzzogeton It's hilarious just how dense you are.
I'm sitting here and laughing my ass off reading your posts.
The amount of stupidity concentrated into even a single of your paragraphs is mind-boggling.
I don't often sink to ad homs, but you, my friend... you deserve that dubious honor!
The most amusing part of it is that you have no idea just how twisted and flawed your logic is.
Case in point: your example of the guy soloing the game with a single char from level 1?
Yeah, he probably did it. But he used every cheese in the book. But that's not what we're talking about here, is it, buddy? You said you blast through mob packs. So I'd like to see you do it. Because anyone can break the game by using cheesy tactics and exploits, but not everyone can beat it fair and square playing with a gimped character in a gimped spec.
And it's not even about beating the game. Hell, you can beat the game with a 3-man party of gnomish super-gimps if you're good enough and have a competent grasp on game mechanics, and a fair amount of meta knowledge. No, the point is clearing out waves *efficiently*, without pausing to rest after every single fight. Which mages can't do. They're crippled. And your dense cranium can't wrap itself around that simple fact. And no, just because they can buff doesn't mean they should have crippled damage output, regardless of what your dumb head thinks.
With all that said, what I want to see from you is a HoF run with your mage(s) clearing the way by using exclusively damage spells. Because if you summon a wall of mobs and buff them, then that's not nuking, is it? And remind me again what this thread was about? Oh yeah, it was about mage damage being sub-par. It wasn't about the efficacy of fighters, or buffing, or debuffing, or monster summoning - it was about MAGE DAMAGE. And you said you can clear out HoF by relying on spell damage alone (though you later conveniently switched over to mob summoning, but whatever).
So, either put up (the clip on YouTube, of you mowing through HoF with spell damage), or shut up.
Yeah, he probably did it. But he used every cheese in the book. But that's not what we're talking about here, is it, buddy? You said you blast through mob packs. So I'd like to see you do it. Because anyone can break the game by using cheesy tactics and exploits, but not everyone can beat it fair and square playing with a gimped character in a gimped spec.
Yeah feel free to point out actual cheese.
No, the point is clearing out waves *efficiently*, without pausing to rest after every single fight. Which mages can't do. They're crippled.
And Fighters can't do it either without Spellcasters helping them out.
With all that said, what I want to see from you is a HoF run with your mage(s) clearing the way by using exclusively damage spells.
That's just as stupid as asking people to clear HoF using Fighters only.
Actually no wait, limiting Mages to only a portion of their spellbook? Right. I'd like to see someone clear HoF with a Fighter without wearing any kind of armor or protective gear
That's how ridiculous your request is.
There are dozens of spells, not all of them are damage spells. Even if we take away all the pointless spells like Know Alignment, it's still not all damage spells.
Because if you summon a wall of mobs and buff them, then that's not nuking, is it?
Because all Mages know are nuke spells... oh wait.
And you said you can clear out HoF by relying on spell damage (though you later conveniently switched over to mob summoning, but whatever).
I said the early mobs can be cleared out by spellcasters imported at Level 15 by using their damage spells.
The example I provided, summons to draw aggro, Web, then Skull Trap do not involve any other sources of damage other than Skull Trap. The summons do not even attack. If you think this isn't a realistic scenario for a group of L15 spellcasters against the Goblins and Orcs and Ogres of the prologue then you're BSing me.
Oh and if you think this is how things are supposed to work, then a party of pure Fighters should be able to survive HoF using only a portion of what their class can do.
So where is the bad design here?
Spellcasters aren't pure damage dealers, if they were then their entire spellbook would consist of nearly nothing but damage spells. The damage oriented character in this game are the Fighters. They do nothing but deal damage.
So by your definition of what is or isn't good design. The game has good design because the class oriented towards dealing damage, the Fighter, is the one that has its damage scale well in HoF.
@Zyzzogeton You're implying that the Infinity Engine games have well-designed combat.
That, in and of itself, is proof enough that you have no god damn idea what you're taking about.
Apart from mage duels in BG2, IE game combat sucks hairy monkey balls. It's laughably bad. THAC0, AC, and time-capped attack rounds are retarded concepts, fit only for tabletop. In fact, the reason all those things exist in the first place is because they were tailored-made with dice and a human GM in mind. Forcing game combat around those concepts is idiotic at best and sloppy at worst.
But contractual limitations are what they are, and the people who made the game had no choice but to comply. Yet here *you* are, espousing the merits of a Vancian magic system like it's the second coming of Tolkien. I'm sure the guys at Black Isle would have preferred to have structured physical combat around swing timers, and magical one around mana, instead of the clusterfuck of D&D excrement the current game is based on.
But you're so blinded by fanboyism that you can't even grasp how terribly designed the entire thing is. You can say you prefer the game and its rules in their current incarnation, but claiming that it's balanced or well designed is hilarious. You want a well designed, balanced game? Look at DotA 2. By comparison, Infinity Engine games are piece of shit stuck to an old barn. We still love them, but you can't turn crap into gold by smearing yellow paint on it.
So get off your high horse already.
And if you're gonna argue like a bumpkin, at least try not to move the goalposts so much.
I'm not claiming the game is balanced or well designed.
I'm claiming good design based on what you said.
The damage oriented character needs to have their damage scale well in HoF. Between a Fighter and a Sorcerer, the damage oriented character is the Fighter who does nothing but deal damage. The Sorcerer on the other hand does so many other things other than deal damage. So if the Fighter's damage scales well then that's good game design according to you
So whatever design faults this game has. Spellcasters being worse damage dealers than Fighters in HoF is not one of them.
Oh and if this was DotA 2, it'd be like demanding a Hero who can Disable, Support, Push, Escape, Carry and in addition to all of that, Nuke.
So no. Just no. Stop bringing up DotA 2. Your idea of a character who can do everything well would just be horrible game design in that game.
And FYI, there are heroes in Dota who eclipse others. Queen of Pain is better in every way than Crystal Maiden. Juggernaut eclipses Luna, even though they share a similar role and a similar ulti mechanic. There's a bunch of heroes that do can do multiple things, and do them so much better that the majority of other heroes pale in comparison. Why did I mention Dota? Because it has good combat. Its heroes use swing timers, instead of attacks per round. Its magic is based on mana, instead of idiotic and arbitrary spell slots which offer no customization. It's better in every concievable way, and is the reason why the next generation of RPGs will be patterned after it, and not the D&D garbage system.
As far as IWDEE is concerned, no, a fighter doesn't just deal damage - they can be specced to tank as well. So no, arcane casters shouldn't be your buff-monkeys, because if they are, then that means they were robbed of their nuking potential. And that's shitty game design.
And no amount of teeth-gnashing from you can or will change that fact.
It may look overpowered, but it's still nowhere near a 10 APR fighter.
And that's ok, since fighters have to get up close and personal.
I've got a better idea - how about YOU do it? If you don't like it, then change it. The Infinity Engine is very easy to mod. There is lots of documentation on how to do it.
Make your mod and implement the ideas you like so that the game can be played the way you want to play it. Then share your mod with us. Maybe Beamdog will love your idea so much that they will copy it? Maybe your mod will become the only mod worth using for HoF mode? Who knows?
Don't expect others to do things for you that you can do yourself. If you are smart enough to play IWD in HoF mode (minimum INT requirement 10) then you are smart enough to mod IWD.
Have you even tried to have a Fighter tank in HoF without spell support? It will die in a few seconds.
And a spellcaster on their own, without a Fighter can tank battles with their summons, buffs and debuffs.
Fighters can't tank on their own. Spellcasters can. So what else is left to Fighters?
Sustainable damage. So if Spellcasters do that job well too then the Fighter will be absolute crap. Even Fighter/Mages will just be wasting their XP on a class they don't need because their spells can kill stuff well anyway.
So still horrible game design. And how DotA's battle system is compared to IE games doesn't change how asking for Spellcasters, in addition to doing every else so well, need to do damage dealing well to is like asking for a Hero who can do everything better than everyone else.
Stop bringing up DotA when your idea about what's balanced and what isn't is clearly wrong. Spellcasters and Fighters complement each other in HoF because Spellcasters can't do good damage like Fighters and Fighters need Spellcasters to survive and improve their damage. Having Spellcasters do more damage will just result in them doing everything well on their own and not needing Fighters anymore.
No, I'm not offended. I just think you could make more constructive use of your time by implementing your ideas in a mod. That way, you get to play the game you want to play. I've done it before in Diablo 2 - I modded the hell out of that game to suit the way I wanted to play it.
Let's face it - Beamdog is not going to do what you ask. So then do it yourself. What is the harm in spending a few hours learning how to mod?
@Zyzzogeton A correctly itemized dwarven defender can tank a bunch of mobs on its own.
Honestly, most of my cleric's attention and buffing goes to the paladin.
He's the one who gets things like improved invisibility and various elemental resistances.
And while he's nowhere near as survivable as a DD or a kensage, and does nowhere near the damage of an archer, I still take him along for RP purposes (and to get dat dere sweet Pale Justice).
So, your assumption about fighter tanks is incorrect.
Furthermore, my ideas on balance aren't wrong because you say so. It's clear you're incapable of accepting the fact that IWDEE has shitty combat mechanics, and is a game where the point is to mow through tons of mobs in as efficient a manner as possible.
You're at your most efficient running a 5-man of various fighter/caster mixes.
Do you honestly believe adding pure caster damage would upset the balance so much?
Because no matter how much DPS a caster pumps out, they're still hampered by spell pause and spell slots. All things being equal, a fighter/x multi or dual class will always out-DPS them in the long run.
@Ancalagon44 Riiiiiiight, that's why your tone bordered on PMS-tier rage, because you weren't offended.
I don't really give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks, but I find it interesting just how much resistance one runs into when one starts poking sacred cows. People are the same all over - it doesn't matter if its football, or cars, or politics, or games - the moment you touch what they perceive as untouchable, all hell breaks loose.
Human nature at its best.
But nice attempt at backpedaling, you almost pulled it off!
A correctly itemized dwarven defender can tank a bunch of mobs on its own.
Okay, then show me a HoF playthrough where not a single Arcane/Divine/Druidic spell is cast.
So, your assumption about fighter tanks is incorrect.
Nope, your Paladin is still drawing hits away from the DD and the Paladin has spell protection. And I don't even know what debuffs are being cast on enemies.
I'm talking about a group of composed only of Fighters and Thieves surviving HoF.
So show me a video of HoF being won with just Fighters and Thieves then you can start talking about survival.
I'll be willing to be that it'll either just as slow as a Sorcerer/Mage/Cleric/Druid only playthrough if not worse.
Furthermore, my ideas on balance aren't wrong because you say so. It's clear you're incapable of accepting the fact that IWDEE has shitty combat mechanics, and is a game where the point is to mow through tons of mobs in as efficient a manner as possible.
The combat mechanics have nothing to do with wanting spellcasters to deal more damage. When every spellcaster except the Sorcerer can be multi or dual classed into a Fighter. And the Sorcerer is a trade off between dual/multiclassing and early spell access.
There is no Hero in DotA who can do it all they're all optimized to a handful of roles. If a Hero unsuited to the role of Carry becomes the Carry then the team ends up worse because of it. Just like how a party that relies on Sorcerers instead of Fighters to kill things ends up taking longer to do so.
Because no matter how much DPS a caster pumps out, they're still hampered by spell pause and spell slots. All things being equal, a fighter/x multi or dual class will always out-DPS them in the long run.
Because no matter how much HP and damage resistance a Fighter pumps out, they're still hampered by mobs with hundreds of HP, double damage. All things being equal, a Fighter/X multi or dual class will always out-tank a pure Fighter in the long run.
Why do you think the same heroes are picked over and over in tourneys?
And you're complaining that the Sorcerer in IWD somehow isn't the best suited character that can cast Arcane spells if you also want that character to be a damage dealer?
Gosh. Whose fault is that? Not the developer's. Not the game's.
Yours.
So a character that sucks compared to a Fighter/Mage? Well gosh if you're some DotA 2 "competitive player" then why are you so confused about one character sucking compared to another?
So really you picked wrong, if you were really a competitive player then you would have realized you're the one who made the mistake here. And all you're doing is whining about it and trying to get the game to change so your horrible pick wouldn't be so bad anymore instead of admitting you made a mistake of picking a character so obviously wrong for you and rerolling your party with another Fighter/Mage instead of a Sorcerer.
@Ancalagon44 Riiiiiiight, that's why your tone bordered on PMS-tier rage, because you weren't offended.
I don't really give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks, but I find it interesting just how much resistance one runs into when one starts poking sacred cows. People are the same all over - it doesn't matter if its football, or cars, or politics, or games - the moment you touch what they perceive as untouchable, all hell breaks loose.
Human nature at its best.
But nice attempt at backpedaling, you almost pulled it off!
I really don't care what you believe. The fact that you are not even considering making these changes yourself shows to me that you are just trolling.
Because if you were not trolling, and were truly passionate about it, you would do something about it instead of complaining about it.
It's a shame, really. A potentially interesting thread almost derailed into a troll- and flamefest. And I say almost because you can still extract facts and insight from former posts. These discussions always went like this (and I'm excluding everything pointless):
"Arcane spellcasters don't deal enough damage early in HoF"
"But they can buff, summon and dual class."
"That's not the point. They should be able to deal meaningful damage. It's beyond lackluster, it's horrendous."
"My mage deals ridiculous amounts of damage with Skull Traps, Contingency etc."
"I said early in HoF. Plus Fighters can keep going while Arcane Spellcasters have limited resources. The devs should change something about that."
"They probably won't, do it yourself."
Look at what you are actually arguing against. Ignore the impudent remarks. Look at the facts. Write based on them. Don't derail, it shows weakness.
Comments
SCS is basically what we're missing in IWD. Can has Ten Town Tactics plz? >_>
The majority of damage spells don't stack. Skull traps are an exception, not the rule.
@Gotural
Sure, you can stack contingencies and triggers and whatnot. Your mage waltzes into a room (say, one of the towers in the Severed Hand), fires everything off, and kills all the mobs. Congratz, you've just cleared a room (double gratz if you've managed to do it without murdering the rest of your crew with splash damage). Now you've got 4 more to go. And that's just one tower, of one hub area. What the hell are you going to do now, rest? Because you sure as hell can't kill anything in an efficient manner, since you have a 6-second pause in between every spell, of which most of them hit like a wet noodle.
Meanwhile, a fully decked out fighter-mage will saw through that same room, and he'll do it without endangering his allies. It may take him 30 seconds longer to clear it, but he doesn't need to rest. All he needs is his 10 APR (via items and Imp. Haste), stoneskin, blur, and mirror image - all spells which he himself has access to. And when he's done murdering everything, he goes up the stairs and does it again. And again. And again. Without pausing. Ever. He hits for ~50dmg. per strike, and he does 10 of them in a round. You really think 1x trigger+contingency once every 5 maps comes even close to that kind of output? Really?
Also, your comment about playing with a full mage party makes no sense. You can also stack a melee-oriented party and do just as well, if not even better. In fact, dual- and multi-classed fighter mixes make *the* most powerful class combinations in IWDEE, period. There's huge amounts of XP to be had, so level caps aren't even an issue. Try a kensai(7)-mage, and then get back to me.
@Zyzzogeton
Listen bro, no one's forcing you to take part in this thread.
If you can't stand my 'whining', then feel free to engage in conversation elsewhere.
But if there's one thing I can't stand from people, it's unfounded bullshit, especially when they have no idea what the blazes they're talking about. Your mage owns HoF? Really? You pwn early-game HoF with your mage? I'd absolutely LOOOOOOOOOVE to see you upload a vid of yourself clearing out HoF mobs during early-game with your uber mages who, how did you put it, "obliterate mob packs". Them 15d6 skull trap really murder HoF mobs, don't they? Especially when saving throws reduce them to 8d6. Mmmm, 48 damage sure puts a huge dent in a 250HP mob. Yeah, sure thing...
And what's that about front-line melee you're saying?
Oodles of HP? Buddy, mobs melt under melee assault.
Fighters don't need mage support. Mages are debuff dispensers in HoF. In their current incarnation, all they're good for is spamming crowd control spells. Mage buffs suck. Outside of Haste (which was nerfed into the ground with a +7 fatigue penalty) for getting around maps quickly, and Imp. Haste (which is single-target and isn't available until later, depending on how/when you start HoF), they're terrible at party buffing. Clerics have them beat by a mile. Clerics also have a plethora of self-only roid spells that turn them into combat monsters.
A pure-class fighter may suck, but no one rolls with those.
Try playing a kensage, or a fighter/cleric, or a zerker dual, or any of the other uber combinations.
All of the former will OBLITERATE a 200HP HoF mob in the time it your mage mage to cast a *single* 10d6 spell.
Mage spell damage doesn't *lag* behind physical one - it's practically non-existent. Vancian magic systems make for absolutely terrible spellcasting mechanics. If you're penalizing a damage-dealer with limited spell slots and 1-round pauses between spells, then you *have* to give them insane damage output or they become gimped. How can you not see this? Your argument about utility doesn't mean jack because clerics have a ton of utility, yet they make for amazing healers *and* combat roid monsters.
Sure, you can rest after literally every fight, and stack your sequencers and triggers and contingencies and whatnot, but that's not fluid gameplay. You can also cower behind summoned minions and watch as one AI side fights the other. If you enjoy that kind of play style, then go for it, no one's judging you, but at least have the courtesy to consider that your way isn't the only way, let alone the best way. And by 'best', I mean most efficient, which it certainly isn't.
@FinneousPJ
Fund it! :P
@bob_veng
Too cool for the game, are we now?
@Lord_Tansheron
Good luck getting davidW to code it.
Good! :P
Maybe
Cast Web x2
Cast Skull Trap over and over.
Or cast Monster Summoning, cast Emotion Spells on summons, cast Haste. Send them to mobs. Oh really now?
So 6 pureclass Fighters can finish HoF?
Well this is something I'd like to see.
And even if this was possible, would they have an easier time than a combination of Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids, and maybe a Mage or two tossed in? Sounds like Mage support to me Without any kind of spellcasting backup? Oh this is hilarious And what makes these classes great is Fighter damage supplemented by Magic. Mage support. Good thing then that Mages have other spells. Last I checked not a single spell level was composed of purely direct damage spells And Fighters without spellcasters to heal them or summon stuff to tank mobs will be sleeping for years or chugging down potion after potion.
Your point?
Spellcasters do many things other than deal damage, Fighters only do one thing, deal damage. Fighters scaling well to HoF while Spellcasters lagging behind in damage is fair. Because if Fighters didn't do good damage in HoF then all they're good for is tanking which is a pointless advantage since Spellcasters already summon their own tanks.
If spellcasters were able to sustain good damage the way Fighters do, then the only point of Fighters in HoF would be to make the game harder by adding an extra body or class to soak up XP.
I already said that if your idea of fun is having mobs tanking while you sit back spamming debuffs and the odd AoE spell, then there's no point in you posting in this thread. It's not even a thread about mage utility or overall usability, just their damage output.
A mage character has 3 pillars comprising it - the 1st is utility (invisibility, haste, etc.), the 2nd is crowd control (debuffs like fear, confusion, and so on, as well as minion summoning and aggro redirection), and the 3rd is damage output. In IWDEE HoF mode, this third pillar is non-existent, no matter how many mobs you summon or how many protections you layer over your frontliners, as neither of those invalidate the fact that DAMAGE OUTPUT RELATIVE TO MOB HEALTH IS UTTER GARBAGE. Can you grasp that simple fact?
You can roll an arcane spellcaster and have it be useful most of the time if you play them as supporters -- and this was never the point of contention, nor did I ever say otherwise -- but they are NOT GOOD DAMAGE DEALERS! Do you understand that? That's what the entire thread is about. Just like rogues in BG2 do a lot of awesome things, but pulling their weight in combat isn't one of them (at least not until they get UAI).
Why I'm even arguing with you is beyond me, when it's clear you lack basic reading comprehension.
And nowhere did I say that fighters own the game. Nowhere!
But a self-buffed cleric/fighter does not need a wimpy mage to buff him.
Neither does a kensage. Both of those combinations excell on their own.
And yes, they absolutely WRECK enemies, and yes, they do so on their own, without backup!
While your puny mage is sitting behind a wall of mobs and spamming various debuffs, a well-itemized kensage will mow through a throng of enemies, and he'll do it on his own, because not only does he have insane survivability, he also has insane damage as well. Ditto for the fighter/cleric, with his roid spells and an absolutely bonkers amount of damage-mitigating ones as well.
Vanilla fighters do indeed suck, but any combination of fighter and another class yields a superior warrior.
Simply because it merges fighter THAC0 and APR and high HP with self-roid clerical or self-protection mage spells.
And a mixed party of 6 fighter/something *WILL* have a much easier time and be more efficient and have less down time and expend less consumables and other resources than a mage-heavy party. This is the polar opposite of IWD2 and its own HoF mode where mages rule supreme during the late-game. But you'd know that if you took 10 seconds to use your head, instead of writing silly things in a thread you don't want to be in anyway.
And you've still not provided video proof of your mages blasting mobs to smithereens. Sitting behind a wall of summons and buffing THEM with haste while debuffing the enemies is not what one has in mind when one reads statements like "obliterating mob packs". That's a summoner approach, not a nuking one!
Finally, your last point about spellcasters having less damage to balance out their other uses is wrong on a number of levels, but I'll just point out one - in a Vancian magic system, it doesn't matter how many uses one's character has, nor how much potential is locked in their spellbook; all that matters is what spells you're currently able to cast with that character. You have a limited amount of spell slots, and if you're using your mage as a damage-dealer, than those spell slots are physically incapable of holding support spells at the same time. So that character, instead of debuffing and supporting, is dealing damage, hence his utility at that time is 0.
Yes, you can mix and match spells, and have some damage and some utility, but that's far from efficient. Which is why people have designated roles for their characters, such as tank, buffer, debuffer, tactical assassin, healer, etc. If your mage's spell slots are filled with damage spells, then s/he can't support because s/he can't access the support spells locked away in a Vancian system spellbook. This isn't WoW, where you have access to all spells all the time, and the only constraints are cast time and mana.
So if you're not supporting, and you're trying to deal damage, what happens when your spells aren't up to snuff?
That's right, you can't contribute. While the fighter is hacking away with 10 APR, the mage is sitting on the sidelines and tickling enemies with 10d6 spells. Hence, s/he's forced to go into utility/support. Which means there is less CHOICE, and you are FORCED to play a certain way. This is bad! Why? Because it pigeonholes spellcasters into certain roles, restricting their freedom.
Loss of choice and diminished degrees of freedom are always a bad thing in a video game.
Read this for a thorough explanation of character roles and party assembly:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/552350-icewind-dale-ii/faqs/28063
It's for IWD2, but much of what he says in there pertains to IWDEE as well.
Because some concepts transcend individual games, yet still always manifest in them.
It just depends what they'll look like from title to title, but they're always there, in one form or another.
Now quit pestering me with banalities!
Nor will a Fighter/Cleric need a Fighter to swing maces for them And any combination of Mage/Cleric/Druid with Fighter will yield a spellcaster capable of performing everything a Mage is good for and outputting a steady stream of damage. And a mixed party of casters with Fighters will have a much easier time and be more efficient and have less down time and expend less consumables and other resources than a Fighter-heavy party Good thing then that Mages summon mobs that stick around and serve as additional bodies to buff to even drive their contribution to the party's damage output even higher.
Damage dealing isn't just swinging a sword, but putting all sorts of buffs on that sword. And what's even less efficient is a Fighter party with no spellcasters So if you have no Mages to debuff enemies, no Clerics to heal you, the mobs still have a hundred or so HP left what happens when the mob drives your HP down to 10? That's right, you're dead. 10 APR? That's 50 damage from Emotion: Hope and Emotion: Courage right there.
Without the Mage the Fighter wouldn't be getting a +5 to damage.
And let's say there's 5 Fighters with 10 APR each. That Mage is now doing 250 damage per turn.
Spellcasters already deal lots of damage per turn through their buffs, debuffs, and summons. Just because a Fighter/Mage can fight and cast spells means nothing, because it's the same with Fighters. They drop dead without magic to help them.
You keep bringing up the Fighter/Mage and fail to realize that in HoF this is how Fighters and Spellcasters work together efficiently. The Fighters fight, the spellcasters buffs. Take either one away and the one left is much worse. So sure Spellcasters without Fighters lose an extremely good source of constant damage to apply their buffs on, but Fighters without Spellcasters drop dead.
If you want to mod your Spellcasters to deal more damage, sure, but don't hide it under some silly pretend design or balance issues.
Ok, now I know you're trolling me.
The amount of false dichotomies you manage to squeeze into a single post is absurd.
FYI, a fighter/mage is a single character, and self-buffing is not utility+support as you believe it to be.
Furthermore, you keep talking about pure fighters as if I'm somehow championing them. I'm not. I keep telling you I'm not, yet you won't let go. It's laughable. The entire point of this thread was to illustrate the fact that damage-oriented arcane casters couldn't keep up in HoF. If you push them into utility and support, it's not an issue, but their lack of damage-dealing capability is. Nor does that obviate their usefulness in other roles. Which I keep repeating, and you keep ignoring and fixating on something I never said in the first place.
You either have no clue how the game works, or are just looking for an empty, pointless circle-jerk.
I dedicated 3 of my posts pointing out your flaws in reasoning, yet you've still managed to derail the thread.
Congratulations, I guess. Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary.
But whatever, I'm done talking to you anyway.
P.S. Still waiting on that clip of your epic HoF-killer mages, lolololol.
A Fighter/Mage will still cast Mass Invisibility on their party
And nothing is stopping a Fighter/Mage or a Fighter/Cleric from casting summons.
All of that is utility and support.
And there's a reason why Multiclass and Dualclass characters are, in general, better than single class characters in HoF.
You went with a single class Spellcaster, so it's your fault you have a character that can't do as much sustainable direct damage as the rest of your party. Picking a Sorc in HoF is about getting access to utility Arcane spells early in exchange for having another Fighter multiclass in your party.
That's the trade off. And yet you keep comparing Fighter damage to Spellcaster damage. Fighters can only deal damage. If you somehow think that Spellcasters being unable to properly deal damage is wrong. If Spellcasters start dealing good damage, what good is a Fighter for?
All Fighters are good for is dealing damage in HoF. They can't tank properly without help from a spellcaster, even a Sorcerer has Mirror Image, Stone Skin and summons to tank for them.
If Spellcasters can just do damage dealing like a Fighter, what's left for the Fighter? You mean you whining your Fireball and Skulltraps can't kill things as well as dual wield long swords.
It's no different from how a thread about how Fighters can't survive in HoF without the help of spellcasting would be whining about how Fighters can't do it all in HoF. but I honestly think that having damage-oriented casters becoming obsolete in the higher difficulty modes is not a hallmark of good design.
That's literally saying the game is badly designed because Spellcasters can't do everything amazingly well by themselves in HoF. They already buff, debuff, summon, and somehow the game is badly designed because it didn't let spellcasters do massive amounts of consistent damage.
So by your logic, a class that does everything well in a game where there are multiple classes is "good design" Why should I, when there's already a video on YouTube of a guy soloing the entire original IWD game in HoF with a Mage/Cleric from Level 1?
If a single M/C starting from Level 1 can do it, a party of spellcasters exported at Level 15 would wipe the floor with it.
It's hilarious just how dense you are.
I'm sitting here and laughing my ass off reading your posts.
The amount of stupidity concentrated into even a single of your paragraphs is mind-boggling.
I don't often sink to ad homs, but you, my friend... you deserve that dubious honor!
The most amusing part of it is that you have no idea just how twisted and flawed your logic is.
Case in point: your example of the guy soloing the game with a single char from level 1?
Yeah, he probably did it. But he used every cheese in the book. But that's not what we're talking about here, is it, buddy? You said you blast through mob packs. So I'd like to see you do it. Because anyone can break the game by using cheesy tactics and exploits, but not everyone can beat it fair and square playing with a gimped character in a gimped spec.
And it's not even about beating the game. Hell, you can beat the game with a 3-man party of gnomish super-gimps if you're good enough and have a competent grasp on game mechanics, and a fair amount of meta knowledge. No, the point is clearing out waves *efficiently*, without pausing to rest after every single fight. Which mages can't do. They're crippled. And your dense cranium can't wrap itself around that simple fact. And no, just because they can buff doesn't mean they should have crippled damage output, regardless of what your dumb head thinks.
With all that said, what I want to see from you is a HoF run with your mage(s) clearing the way by using exclusively damage spells. Because if you summon a wall of mobs and buff them, then that's not nuking, is it? And remind me again what this thread was about? Oh yeah, it was about mage damage being sub-par. It wasn't about the efficacy of fighters, or buffing, or debuffing, or monster summoning - it was about MAGE DAMAGE. And you said you can clear out HoF by relying on spell damage alone (though you later conveniently switched over to mob summoning, but whatever).
So, either put up (the clip on YouTube, of you mowing through HoF with spell damage), or shut up.
Actually no wait, limiting Mages to only a portion of their spellbook? Right. I'd like to see someone clear HoF with a Fighter without wearing any kind of armor or protective gear
That's how ridiculous your request is.
There are dozens of spells, not all of them are damage spells. Even if we take away all the pointless spells like Know Alignment, it's still not all damage spells. Because all Mages know are nuke spells... oh wait. I said the early mobs can be cleared out by spellcasters imported at Level 15 by using their damage spells.
The example I provided, summons to draw aggro, Web, then Skull Trap do not involve any other sources of damage other than Skull Trap. The summons do not even attack. If you think this isn't a realistic scenario for a group of L15 spellcasters against the Goblins and Orcs and Ogres of the prologue then you're BSing me.
Oh and if you think this is how things are supposed to work, then a party of pure Fighters should be able to survive HoF using only a portion of what their class can do.
So where is the bad design here?
Spellcasters aren't pure damage dealers, if they were then their entire spellbook would consist of nearly nothing but damage spells. The damage oriented character in this game are the Fighters. They do nothing but deal damage.
So by your definition of what is or isn't good design. The game has good design because the class oriented towards dealing damage, the Fighter, is the one that has its damage scale well in HoF.
You're implying that the Infinity Engine games have well-designed combat.
That, in and of itself, is proof enough that you have no god damn idea what you're taking about.
Apart from mage duels in BG2, IE game combat sucks hairy monkey balls. It's laughably bad. THAC0, AC, and time-capped attack rounds are retarded concepts, fit only for tabletop. In fact, the reason all those things exist in the first place is because they were tailored-made with dice and a human GM in mind. Forcing game combat around those concepts is idiotic at best and sloppy at worst.
But contractual limitations are what they are, and the people who made the game had no choice but to comply. Yet here *you* are, espousing the merits of a Vancian magic system like it's the second coming of Tolkien. I'm sure the guys at Black Isle would have preferred to have structured physical combat around swing timers, and magical one around mana, instead of the clusterfuck of D&D excrement the current game is based on.
But you're so blinded by fanboyism that you can't even grasp how terribly designed the entire thing is. You can say you prefer the game and its rules in their current incarnation, but claiming that it's balanced or well designed is hilarious. You want a well designed, balanced game? Look at DotA 2. By comparison, Infinity Engine games are piece of shit stuck to an old barn. We still love them, but you can't turn crap into gold by smearing yellow paint on it.
So get off your high horse already.
And if you're gonna argue like a bumpkin, at least try not to move the goalposts so much.
I'm claiming good design based on what you said.
The damage oriented character needs to have their damage scale well in HoF. Between a Fighter and a Sorcerer, the damage oriented character is the Fighter who does nothing but deal damage. The Sorcerer on the other hand does so many other things other than deal damage. So if the Fighter's damage scales well then that's good game design according to you
So whatever design faults this game has. Spellcasters being worse damage dealers than Fighters in HoF is not one of them.
Oh and if this was DotA 2, it'd be like demanding a Hero who can Disable, Support, Push, Escape, Carry and in addition to all of that, Nuke.
So no. Just no. Stop bringing up DotA 2. Your idea of a character who can do everything well would just be horrible game design in that game.
Love your assumptions, bro.
Keep talking; I need more laughs
And FYI, there are heroes in Dota who eclipse others. Queen of Pain is better in every way than Crystal Maiden. Juggernaut eclipses Luna, even though they share a similar role and a similar ulti mechanic. There's a bunch of heroes that do can do multiple things, and do them so much better that the majority of other heroes pale in comparison. Why did I mention Dota? Because it has good combat. Its heroes use swing timers, instead of attacks per round. Its magic is based on mana, instead of idiotic and arbitrary spell slots which offer no customization. It's better in every concievable way, and is the reason why the next generation of RPGs will be patterned after it, and not the D&D garbage system.
As far as IWDEE is concerned, no, a fighter doesn't just deal damage - they can be specced to tank as well. So no, arcane casters shouldn't be your buff-monkeys, because if they are, then that means they were robbed of their nuking potential. And that's shitty game design.
And no amount of teeth-gnashing from you can or will change that fact.
Make your mod and implement the ideas you like so that the game can be played the way you want to play it. Then share your mod with us. Maybe Beamdog will love your idea so much that they will copy it? Maybe your mod will become the only mod worth using for HoF mode? Who knows?
Don't expect others to do things for you that you can do yourself. If you are smart enough to play IWD in HoF mode (minimum INT requirement 10) then you are smart enough to mod IWD.
Have you even tried to have a Fighter tank in HoF without spell support? It will die in a few seconds.
And a spellcaster on their own, without a Fighter can tank battles with their summons, buffs and debuffs.
Fighters can't tank on their own. Spellcasters can. So what else is left to Fighters?
Sustainable damage. So if Spellcasters do that job well too then the Fighter will be absolute crap. Even Fighter/Mages will just be wasting their XP on a class they don't need because their spells can kill stuff well anyway.
So still horrible game design. And how DotA's battle system is compared to IE games doesn't change how asking for Spellcasters, in addition to doing every else so well, need to do damage dealing well to is like asking for a Hero who can do everything better than everyone else.
Stop bringing up DotA when your idea about what's balanced and what isn't is clearly wrong. Spellcasters and Fighters complement each other in HoF because Spellcasters can't do good damage like Fighters and Fighters need Spellcasters to survive and improve their damage. Having Spellcasters do more damage will just result in them doing everything well on their own and not needing Fighters anymore.
Ooohhh, snarky!
Did my post offend you so much you had to come into the thread and act like something crawled up your ass?
Let's face it - Beamdog is not going to do what you ask. So then do it yourself. What is the harm in spending a few hours learning how to mod?
A correctly itemized dwarven defender can tank a bunch of mobs on its own.
Honestly, most of my cleric's attention and buffing goes to the paladin.
He's the one who gets things like improved invisibility and various elemental resistances.
And while he's nowhere near as survivable as a DD or a kensage, and does nowhere near the damage of an archer, I still take him along for RP purposes (and to get dat dere sweet Pale Justice).
So, your assumption about fighter tanks is incorrect.
Furthermore, my ideas on balance aren't wrong because you say so. It's clear you're incapable of accepting the fact that IWDEE has shitty combat mechanics, and is a game where the point is to mow through tons of mobs in as efficient a manner as possible.
You're at your most efficient running a 5-man of various fighter/caster mixes.
Do you honestly believe adding pure caster damage would upset the balance so much?
Because no matter how much DPS a caster pumps out, they're still hampered by spell pause and spell slots. All things being equal, a fighter/x multi or dual class will always out-DPS them in the long run.
Riiiiiiight, that's why your tone bordered on PMS-tier rage, because you weren't offended.
I don't really give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks, but I find it interesting just how much resistance one runs into when one starts poking sacred cows. People are the same all over - it doesn't matter if its football, or cars, or politics, or games - the moment you touch what they perceive as untouchable, all hell breaks loose.
Human nature at its best.
But nice attempt at backpedaling, you almost pulled it off!
I'm talking about a group of composed only of Fighters and Thieves surviving HoF.
So show me a video of HoF being won with just Fighters and Thieves then you can start talking about survival.
I'll be willing to be that it'll either just as slow as a Sorcerer/Mage/Cleric/Druid only playthrough if not worse. The combat mechanics have nothing to do with wanting spellcasters to deal more damage. When every spellcaster except the Sorcerer can be multi or dual classed into a Fighter. And the Sorcerer is a trade off between dual/multiclassing and early spell access.
There is no Hero in DotA who can do it all they're all optimized to a handful of roles. If a Hero unsuited to the role of Carry becomes the Carry then the team ends up worse because of it. Just like how a party that relies on Sorcerers instead of Fighters to kill things ends up taking longer to do so. Because no matter how much HP and damage resistance a Fighter pumps out, they're still hampered by mobs with hundreds of HP, double damage. All things being equal, a Fighter/X multi or dual class will always out-tank a pure Fighter in the long run.
Spellslots are irrelevant with rest.
Spellpause is irrelevant once damage goes up.
Shows how much you know about Dota, hahahahha.
Why do you think the same heroes are picked over and over in tourneys?
Hint: it's because they're orders of magnitude more powerful than everything else.
I should know, I played competitive inhouse for a number of years.
And LOL @ your 1337 spellkeys in a single-player game with a pause.
Oh god, my stomach is gonna cramp up... I'm laughing so hard! xD
It's getting late here, and I'm way overdue for sleep - thanks for the lulz, bro!
Feel free to keep bumping the thread; I need something to make me laugh my ass off when I get up tomorrow!
oh god... spellkeys... in a pausable game.. hAHHGHAHAHahaha
xD
Gosh. Whose fault is that? Not the developer's. Not the game's.
Yours.
So a character that sucks compared to a Fighter/Mage? Well gosh if you're some DotA 2 "competitive player" then why are you so confused about one character sucking compared to another?
So really you picked wrong, if you were really a competitive player then you would have realized you're the one who made the mistake here. And all you're doing is whining about it and trying to get the game to change so your horrible pick wouldn't be so bad anymore instead of admitting you made a mistake of picking a character so obviously wrong for you and rerolling your party with another Fighter/Mage instead of a Sorcerer.
Because if you were not trolling, and were truly passionate about it, you would do something about it instead of complaining about it.
These discussions always went like this (and I'm excluding everything pointless):
"Arcane spellcasters don't deal enough damage early in HoF"
"But they can buff, summon and dual class."
"That's not the point. They should be able to deal meaningful damage. It's beyond lackluster, it's horrendous."
"My mage deals ridiculous amounts of damage with Skull Traps, Contingency etc."
"I said early in HoF. Plus Fighters can keep going while Arcane Spellcasters have limited resources. The devs should change something about that."
"They probably won't, do it yourself."
Look at what you are actually arguing against. Ignore the impudent remarks. Look at the facts. Write based on them. Don't derail, it shows weakness.
There were a lot of debates about how important it was, since mages already had the ridiculously overpowered Illusion and Conjuring schools.
Flaming other users, whether provoked or not, is not allowed. Consider this a warning.