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Why exactly is Charisma importaint to bards?

Except for the class description that they are talkers, are there any other bard skill that are directly affected by a high charisma score? Bonus spell, effect of songs, lore bonus or similar?

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  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    nope, its just one of those whacky AD&D role play type thingies, like how a Paladin is supposed to have at least 17 charisma but in actual game, it doesn't do anything to enhance their class abilities
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    Well, Charisma is also one's ability to lead. So, when it comes to druids, I think it just shows their ability to lead packs of animals, or other creatures of the forest.
    elminsterjackjackbooinyoureyes
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited November 2014
    @lunar ,Hmm, I never really thought about the charisma requirement for druids. That doesn't make sense, does it? I usually think of druids as D&D environmentalists, but environmentalists in real life run the full charisma spectrum. Given how provocative and radical some are, charisma doesn't seem to be a job requirement.

    All I can think of is that Gygax may have imagined that the connection with nature to the extent of drawing magical spells through it requires a charismatic force of personality, and only certain people can do it.

    After a bit of googling, I see that one idea that pops up frequently is that the druid's charisma is needed to charm animals. Although, by that logic, a ranger should need high charisma as well.

    Also, Gygax may have been thinking more of historical druid orders that had an organized hierarchy of "circles", and would often try to help farmers by conducting rituals for a good harvest, better weather, cures for ills and diseases, fewer pests, and the like. They were more like what we would call "wiccans" today than they were like the "hippie, tree-hugging, lives in a forest" sterotype.
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    lunarWandering_Minstrelbooinyoureyes
  • GrabtharsHammerGrabtharsHammer Member Posts: 27
    Its overrated.

    I prefer the drunken tavern bard that scratches his bum and resentfully scowls at the audience between ballads; claiming that Fflewddur Fflam stole his life's work, impoverishing him.
    BelgarathMTHrufus_hobartjackjackbooinyoureyes
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    The biggest reason bards can get away with low CHA is that there is no TV in D&D. If people have to actually LISTEN to music instead of looking at the musician things are much different (and let's be honest when you're a pipe-smoking dwarf in a crowded inn at midnight, you probably can't see your own fingers let alone the stage).
    elminsterbooinyoureyes
  • molloymolloy Member Posts: 105
    Well, the more useless an attribute is, the more excessively it has to be forced upon the player, obviously.
    Skatan
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited November 2014
    Always a better solution than, you know, actually making it useful. That's game design 101.
    Jarrakul
  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968


    In Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, the bard's high charisma doesn't do anything except affect party morale and shop prices if the bard is in the lead position, just as high charisma does for any character.

    I don't believe that's true. I have two Human fighters, both of which I'm planning on dual-classing in the future. One of them is going to be a Druid, and so has a Charisma of 17, the other is at 9. But the high Charisma character gets a boost to a number of his savings throws whenever it levels up, while the other does not. I've tried to figure out why one of them gets the bonuses and the other one doesn't, and the only thing I've been able to come up with is the difference in Charisma. Other than that, they have very similar stats. There could be some other factor that I'm missing of course, but it seems to me that Charisma is having an effect there.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited November 2014



    That being said, AD&D is all about creative interpretations, which of course you can't just 100% translate into a video game. In your bard example, you could totally spin a story around this repulsive, obnoxious brute from some backwater tribe, who just happens to be their storyteller/singer (because he inherited the position, or because he's got a lame foot and hunting was out and that's what he got stuck with or whatever) and who everyone listens to because they're simply too afraid to tell him that he's got a rotting fish eye in his beard and the voice of a tortured tomcat. There you go, 18 STR 6 CHA bard right there.

    In the tribe storyteller you describe, he may have higher charisma when seen by the tribesmen, as he portrays qualities which they cherish and find ideal. This is 'different charisma for different race/people' is a thing in Ad&d, like the avatar of a monstrous race has pitiful charisma for most player character races, because it looks monstrous and causes revulsion. However for the monster race in question the avatar is the epitome of beauty/strength/grace and the avatar has 20 or more charisma for them, when he leads them they are perfectly loyal and can throw their lives at his feet.

    There was even a cat lord, one of the many versions of the said creature, in one he (or was it a she?) had higher cha for people who loved cats, because although being humanoid, she resembled a cat in appearance and persona. I guess a cat hater or someone with a cat phobia will find her utterly loathsome.

    And in many ad&d modules and scenarios charisma is all about appearance. Like when describing an npc, the text reads 'she is a very beautiful woman with dark, long, shiny hair, deep green eyes, full lips and a very shapely, lite body. Her skin is pale and flawless. When she smiles it is a sight to behold, and when she gets excited her usually pale cheeks gain a slight reddish tint that reminds people of a beautiful, blooming rose. (CHA=17)' or 'he is a balding, fat man with a huge wart protruding from his misshapenly big nose. His rather crooked teeth are missing and rotten in places. One blood-shot eye is noticably smaller than the other, and the sclera has a sickly yellowish tint. Has a bad case of acne scars ravaging through his face. The heavy, sour odour of unwashed clothes and sweaty skin assaults your nostrils along with something that has a heavier, almost bitter smell. CHA=5)
    BelgarathMTH
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Pff, how shallow!

    Anyway, my tribesman would be annoying his kin, too, in my example; they just tolerate him because, well, gotta have a storyteller and he's it. He somehow got in there and he's not very good but that's what you're stuck with, plus when Grek last mentioned how "orange" doesn't actually rhyme with "glory" he ended up with his head in the slop bucket and a broken finger, so there's that.
    rufus_hobartJuliusBorisov
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Well the truth is, as much as we don't want to admit it, most people are pretty shallow. You can find about scientific researches that prove that 'beautiful' people have it easy on nearly everything in life when compared to 'ugly' people. They get treated better, have easier time to have a job and they even get paid more. One shocking result was parents even treated their cuter and prettier babies/children better than ugly/plain ones, even if they don't do it knowingly and will never admit it ofcourse. Perhaps it is an instinct to try to preserve the 'better genes' of the beautiful infant more than the average or ugly ones.

    Not to mention that on a dating site or application a man or a woman who are considered 'beautiful' and 'handsome' by the society will get more messages/dates/attention. They don't even have to work hard to impress others by their intellect and personality. Plain janes/joes or ugly ones will have to get creative, work harder to make themselves better in something, either knowledge, sense of humour, or plain body building. And even if they have the most amazing personality in the world they just won't get as much attention as the ones that are considered 'gorgeous'.

    It is like that in ad&d, a bit. Charisma affects initial reaction and if you play IE games with a low charisma character, many npcs will dislike you at the very first dialogue, even if you don't say a thing beforehand. Because you look ugly. And people don't like ugly. On the other hand if you have 18 charisma they will love you at first sight, even if you are chaotic evil inside. And it has little to do with personality as you don't even get to speak or act in any way to get this initial reaction. They will just like you from the start, because you look nice. You look loveable. Perhaps they even find you attractive.

    Charisma also affects loyalty and number of henchmen the pc can have, in ad&d. This might be more to do with personality and leadership ability. A gorgeous man or woman can be uninspiring, so they later divided charisma to appearence and leadership. Multiply the charisma score by two and divide among two sub abilities. Still the two sub ability scores can not be apart from each other more than 4 points. Say you have 15 cha. You can have a 12 appearance and 18 leadership:your looks while not bad, are not exceptional but you are a truly inspiring leader. Or you can have 18 in appearance and 12 in leadership:you look absolutely gorgeous and people love you at first sight, however when put in authority you are just not that commanding/leading. You can't have say, 6 apearance and 15 leadership, nobody will want to be commanded by such an ugly person. Or such a fine leader just can't be that ugly, it does not make sense.
    JuliusBorisovbooinyoureyes
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    You may be taking me way too serious ;)

    But to get all down to business, keep in mind that ideals of beauty and the importance of looks change over time, and shift with overall social makeup. There's plenty of cultures where beauty is overridden by other attributes and/or defined quite differently from what we would call beautiful in our modern, Western-centric view. D&D being of course a spawn of that social framework follows many of these actually rather modern conventions.

    Anyway, I think we're in danger of straying a bit too far here, so I better shut up before I tread loose a sociological avalanche.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited November 2014
    The real reason Druids need Charisma in ADnD is because they are supposed to be advisors sometimes or leaders of a Circle or Grove. Mostly for the second reason.

    Don't forget that Druids can become Grand Druids and thus need to lead the other druids inside the Circle/Grove.
    Or lower-ranking Druids need to lead the newer ones and so on.

    I prefer it in 3E where charisma affects some skills and abilities (Wild Empathy) but you can put it anywhere you want, though.

    "They acted as advisors to chieftains and held great influence over tribesmen." - ADnD 2E, Player's Handbook

    They also get underlings at level 12, at level 13 (Arch Druid) they get three initiates of level 10, at level 15 they become Grand Druids.
    But then they have to step down and become something different but more advanced, a Hierophant Druid.

    TL;DR: Druids need Charisma in ADnD because they lead other druids and get hirelings. It's a roleplaying reason.
    BelgarathMTHbooinyoureyes
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited November 2014
    One thing that I always remind myself of when I am too tempted to associate charisma with good looks, is that the leaders of the world politically have historically been rather homely and older rather than beautiful and younger.

    People like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, the Kennedies, Ronald Reagan, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Margaret Thatcher, (on and on, insert your own favorite political leader from past or present from any country or historical epoch), have all led the world and changed history based on their 16 or higher charisma.

    Would anyone dispute that the prime requisite for politics in the real world is charisma? More than wisdom, more than intelligence, the person who wins elections (or revolutions, or dictatorships), and then wields the power of office successfully and with great effect, is a superlatively charismatic individual. A good politician can talk you into believing and agreeing to almost *anything*, and then scratching your head later at how or why you went along with him or her. They wield a skill in real life almost like a "charm person spell".

    That's why I agree much more with the definition of high charisma as "personal magnetism and charm", than as "stunning good looks". I think of "stunning good looks" as giving a bonus to the attribute, but not as defining it.
    lunarJuliusBorisovbooinyoureyesvladpen
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211

    I think of "stunning good looks" as giving a bonus to the attribute, but not as defining it.

    I think that is something I can agree with. It's also important not to go into extremes, it's not between underwear model and hunchback monstrosity, that's just a false dichotomy for a much, much more diverse spectrum.
    BelgarathMTHjackjacklunar
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    According to every Player's Handbook, the Bard often acts as the party's face in NPC interactions, and is usually a supporter in combat. To interact with other characters the Bard needs as much CHA as possible.
    Social skills let the Bard be the spokesperson of the party. The Bard relies on his CHA to survive.

    I've managed to find this video where the Bard class history and concept are reviewed:

    lunarjackjackBelgarathMTH
  • CluasCluas Member Posts: 355



    In Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, the bard's high charisma doesn't do anything except affect party morale and shop prices if the bard is in the lead position, just as high charisma does for any character.

    Well a high CHA will also give you extra dialogue options... Just saying :)
    elminsterjackjackbooinyoureyeslolien
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688
    edited November 2014


    Also, Gygax may have been thinking more of historical druid orders that had an organized hierarchy of "circles", and would often try to help farmers by conducting rituals for a good harvest, better weather, cures for ills and diseases, fewer pests, and the like. They were more like what we would call "wiccans" today than they were like the "hippie, tree-hugging, lives in a forest" sterotype.

    That's how I think druids should be viewed - as a form of sage or seer who stands between the humans and the gods. Albeit they might seem archaic compared to the actual priest class, druids can also be regarded as priests of nature deities and spirits. As such, high charisma (a strong personality and leadership skill) befits their role as intermediaries between the world of mortals and the realm of gods, faeries, and other nature spirits.

    Viewing druids as vegans, eco-terrorists, IMO erodes the fun of the class in the long run by simplification and promotes the prevalence of very limiting stereotypes, similar the notion that a dwarf had to be an alcoholic brawler or that a had paladin a stuck-up fanatical jerk, or a woman in fantasy fiction had to be a curvy and half-naked pin-up.
    booinyoureyesNonnahswriter
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited November 2014
    Cluas said:



    In Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, the bard's high charisma doesn't do anything except affect party morale and shop prices if the bard is in the lead position, just as high charisma does for any character.

    Well a high CHA will also give you extra dialogue options... Just saying :)
    Especially in IWD. But 16 I think is the max there in terms of getting any benefit from it (for dialogue options that is).
    jackjackbooinyoureyesJuliusBorisov
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,075
    Calmar said:


    Viewing druids as vegans, eco-terrorists, IMO erodes the fun of the class in the long run by simplification and promotes the prevalence of very limiting stereotypes, similar the notion that a dwarf had to be an alcoholic brawler or that a had paladin a stuck-up fanatical jerk, or a woman in fantasy fiction had to be a curvy and half-naked pin-up.

    Since when are druids vegans? From what I know, they are fine with hunting for food. They just don't like hunting for sport. No matter what you eat, living things die.

    Also, the Shadow Druids kind of ARE eco-terrorists. It's just important for people to realize that not all druids are Shadow Druids.

    Also, if a paladin is a jerk, then, well... isn't the whole point of paladins that they AREN'T huge jerks?
    Nonnahswriter
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Nah, the point of paladins is that their unfailing devotion to doing the right thing and their unwillingness to compromise their morals. Nothing in that says anything about being a nice person. In fact, it seems they're usually rp'd as self-righteous jerks who can't understand why not everyone follows their code, and that honestly makes a certain amount of sense. Which isn't to say there *aren't* genuinely nice paladins, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. Which, again, isn't to say they aren't good people. Just also jerks.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited November 2014
    Jarrakul said:

    Nah, the point of paladins is that their unfailing devotion to doing the right thing and their unwillingness to compromise their morals. Nothing in that says anything about being a nice person. In fact, it seems they're usually rp'd as self-righteous jerks who can't understand why not everyone follows their code, and that honestly makes a certain amount of sense. Which isn't to say there *aren't* genuinely nice paladins, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. Which, again, isn't to say they aren't good people. Just also jerks.

    There's an interesting philosophical debate in there as what then in fact constitutes "the right thing". I think it's better to think of paladins as people who uphold their ORDER'S laws, ideals, and principles at any cost. In that, they are definitely somewhat zealous - they judge anything and everything from THEIR sense of "the right thing", not some morally "objective" right thing. It all depends on the order/deity they follow, and they are apparently quite rigid within that code.

    Think of the old "don't lie" dilemma; a paladin whose tenets of faith were "don't you ever lie!" would most definitely answer truthfully if a murderer asked him where that escaping victim was hiding (assuming here of course no other tenet that overrides).
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    See, normally I'd totally agree with you, but D&D went and slapped objective good/evil labels on things. It's pretty clear, mechanically-speaking, that the game believes in objective good and evil AND that a paladin must uphold objective good. Which is... really weird, honestly. But it's what the rules say. What you're describing would fall much more accurately under lawful neutral than lawful good, according to the game's moral claims.

    Also, for the "don't lie" thing, any paladin who tells a murderer where to find the prospective victim is a terrible paladin. First, because paladins aren't allowed to compromise some of their principles (protect the innocent) for the sake of others (don't lie), and second, because not being allowed to lie doesn't mean you have to answer the question.
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