Why exactly is Charisma importaint to bards?
Boxrainman
Member Posts: 17
Except for the class description that they are talkers, are there any other bard skill that are directly affected by a high charisma score? Bonus spell, effect of songs, lore bonus or similar?
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In 3rd edition D&D, which you may be thinking of, the charisma stat for bards actually does determine what spell level they can cast and how soon - a bard must have charisma 12 to cast a 2nd level spell, 13 for a 3rd level spell, up to 16 for a 6th level spell, and the higher level spell progression can be delayed a level if the bard has charisma lower than 16. (That is, a bard with 16 charisma can cast new spell levels a character level sooner than a bard with 15 charisma.)
In Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, the bard's high charisma doesn't do anything except affect party morale and shop prices if the bard is in the lead position, just as high charisma does for any character.
But then according to many others, gold is something of a lesser concern in later chapters of the game.
Now if only we can explain why druids require as high CHA as well, they are the nature worshipping kinda-hippies living in forests and surrounded by wild life and animals. They are not the benevolent guiding ceremonial religious leaders as far as I can tell. They don't cherish as much human interaction as well, they don't actually preach their beliefs as much as other religion clerics do. Their number one priority is keeping the balance, not converting people to their religion. Actually I assume many would prefer the presence of wild life to those of people. And, living in the forest too long, I am sure they will all look like bestial with long and unkempt dirty hair/beard, finger nails, and teeth etc. I would assume being a druid would put a limit to max cha rather than requiring a minimum.
That being said, AD&D is all about creative interpretations, which of course you can't just 100% translate into a video game. In your bard example, you could totally spin a story around this repulsive, obnoxious brute from some backwater tribe, who just happens to be their storyteller/singer (because he inherited the position, or because he's got a lame foot and hunting was out and that's what he got stuck with or whatever) and who everyone listens to because they're simply too afraid to tell him that he's got a rotting fish eye in his beard and the voice of a tortured tomcat. There you go, 18 STR 6 CHA bard right there.
All I can think of is that Gygax may have imagined that the connection with nature to the extent of drawing magical spells through it requires a charismatic force of personality, and only certain people can do it.
After a bit of googling, I see that one idea that pops up frequently is that the druid's charisma is needed to charm animals. Although, by that logic, a ranger should need high charisma as well.
Also, Gygax may have been thinking more of historical druid orders that had an organized hierarchy of "circles", and would often try to help farmers by conducting rituals for a good harvest, better weather, cures for ills and diseases, fewer pests, and the like. They were more like what we would call "wiccans" today than they were like the "hippie, tree-hugging, lives in a forest" sterotype.
I prefer the drunken tavern bard that scratches his bum and resentfully scowls at the audience between ballads; claiming that Fflewddur Fflam stole his life's work, impoverishing him.
There was even a cat lord, one of the many versions of the said creature, in one he (or was it a she?) had higher cha for people who loved cats, because although being humanoid, she resembled a cat in appearance and persona. I guess a cat hater or someone with a cat phobia will find her utterly loathsome.
And in many ad&d modules and scenarios charisma is all about appearance. Like when describing an npc, the text reads 'she is a very beautiful woman with dark, long, shiny hair, deep green eyes, full lips and a very shapely, lite body. Her skin is pale and flawless. When she smiles it is a sight to behold, and when she gets excited her usually pale cheeks gain a slight reddish tint that reminds people of a beautiful, blooming rose. (CHA=17)' or 'he is a balding, fat man with a huge wart protruding from his misshapenly big nose. His rather crooked teeth are missing and rotten in places. One blood-shot eye is noticably smaller than the other, and the sclera has a sickly yellowish tint. Has a bad case of acne scars ravaging through his face. The heavy, sour odour of unwashed clothes and sweaty skin assaults your nostrils along with something that has a heavier, almost bitter smell. CHA=5)
Anyway, my tribesman would be annoying his kin, too, in my example; they just tolerate him because, well, gotta have a storyteller and he's it. He somehow got in there and he's not very good but that's what you're stuck with, plus when Grek last mentioned how "orange" doesn't actually rhyme with "glory" he ended up with his head in the slop bucket and a broken finger, so there's that.
Not to mention that on a dating site or application a man or a woman who are considered 'beautiful' and 'handsome' by the society will get more messages/dates/attention. They don't even have to work hard to impress others by their intellect and personality. Plain janes/joes or ugly ones will have to get creative, work harder to make themselves better in something, either knowledge, sense of humour, or plain body building. And even if they have the most amazing personality in the world they just won't get as much attention as the ones that are considered 'gorgeous'.
It is like that in ad&d, a bit. Charisma affects initial reaction and if you play IE games with a low charisma character, many npcs will dislike you at the very first dialogue, even if you don't say a thing beforehand. Because you look ugly. And people don't like ugly. On the other hand if you have 18 charisma they will love you at first sight, even if you are chaotic evil inside. And it has little to do with personality as you don't even get to speak or act in any way to get this initial reaction. They will just like you from the start, because you look nice. You look loveable. Perhaps they even find you attractive.
Charisma also affects loyalty and number of henchmen the pc can have, in ad&d. This might be more to do with personality and leadership ability. A gorgeous man or woman can be uninspiring, so they later divided charisma to appearence and leadership. Multiply the charisma score by two and divide among two sub abilities. Still the two sub ability scores can not be apart from each other more than 4 points. Say you have 15 cha. You can have a 12 appearance and 18 leadership:your looks while not bad, are not exceptional but you are a truly inspiring leader. Or you can have 18 in appearance and 12 in leadership:you look absolutely gorgeous and people love you at first sight, however when put in authority you are just not that commanding/leading. You can't have say, 6 apearance and 15 leadership, nobody will want to be commanded by such an ugly person. Or such a fine leader just can't be that ugly, it does not make sense.
But to get all down to business, keep in mind that ideals of beauty and the importance of looks change over time, and shift with overall social makeup. There's plenty of cultures where beauty is overridden by other attributes and/or defined quite differently from what we would call beautiful in our modern, Western-centric view. D&D being of course a spawn of that social framework follows many of these actually rather modern conventions.
Anyway, I think we're in danger of straying a bit too far here, so I better shut up before I tread loose a sociological avalanche.
Don't forget that Druids can become Grand Druids and thus need to lead the other druids inside the Circle/Grove.
Or lower-ranking Druids need to lead the newer ones and so on.
I prefer it in 3E where charisma affects some skills and abilities (Wild Empathy) but you can put it anywhere you want, though.
"They acted as advisors to chieftains and held great influence over tribesmen." - ADnD 2E, Player's Handbook
They also get underlings at level 12, at level 13 (Arch Druid) they get three initiates of level 10, at level 15 they become Grand Druids.
But then they have to step down and become something different but more advanced, a Hierophant Druid.
TL;DR: Druids need Charisma in ADnD because they lead other druids and get hirelings. It's a roleplaying reason.
People like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, the Kennedies, Ronald Reagan, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Margaret Thatcher, (on and on, insert your own favorite political leader from past or present from any country or historical epoch), have all led the world and changed history based on their 16 or higher charisma.
Would anyone dispute that the prime requisite for politics in the real world is charisma? More than wisdom, more than intelligence, the person who wins elections (or revolutions, or dictatorships), and then wields the power of office successfully and with great effect, is a superlatively charismatic individual. A good politician can talk you into believing and agreeing to almost *anything*, and then scratching your head later at how or why you went along with him or her. They wield a skill in real life almost like a "charm person spell".
That's why I agree much more with the definition of high charisma as "personal magnetism and charm", than as "stunning good looks". I think of "stunning good looks" as giving a bonus to the attribute, but not as defining it.
Social skills let the Bard be the spokesperson of the party. The Bard relies on his CHA to survive.
I've managed to find this video where the Bard class history and concept are reviewed:
Viewing druids as vegans, eco-terrorists, IMO erodes the fun of the class in the long run by simplification and promotes the prevalence of very limiting stereotypes, similar the notion that a dwarf had to be an alcoholic brawler or that a had paladin a stuck-up fanatical jerk, or a woman in fantasy fiction had to be a curvy and half-naked pin-up.
Also, the Shadow Druids kind of ARE eco-terrorists. It's just important for people to realize that not all druids are Shadow Druids.
Also, if a paladin is a jerk, then, well... isn't the whole point of paladins that they AREN'T huge jerks?
Think of the old "don't lie" dilemma; a paladin whose tenets of faith were "don't you ever lie!" would most definitely answer truthfully if a murderer asked him where that escaping victim was hiding (assuming here of course no other tenet that overrides).
Also, for the "don't lie" thing, any paladin who tells a murderer where to find the prospective victim is a terrible paladin. First, because paladins aren't allowed to compromise some of their principles (protect the innocent) for the sake of others (don't lie), and second, because not being allowed to lie doesn't mean you have to answer the question.