Are druids in HoF viable (compared to clerics and other classes)?
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
By the request of @elminster , this discussion was created from comments split from: IWD:EE and Heart of Fury Difficulty Level.
So, ladies and gentlemen, share your thoughts on druids in HoF here.
So, ladies and gentlemen, share your thoughts on druids in HoF here.
4
Comments
Granted it takes an entire turn for all the damage to resolve, but in HoF it's not that long.
Position melee characters just outside the AoE so they can still hit things without getting hurt.
I can't praise druids in IWDEE enough. Now in this game this class is one of the most powerful and in the same time fun to play.
On each spell level there're spells now that really add to the party.
lvl 1
Sunscorch: a brilliant ray of scorching heat slants down from the sky and strikes one target for 1d6 points of damage, plus 1 point per level of the caster, if the target is an undead creature or a monster vulnerable to bright light, the damage is 1d6, plus 2 points per level of the caster. The main thing that if a Save vs. Spell is failed, the victim is blinded for 3 rounds.
lvl 2
Alicorn Lance: the lance fires at one target, inflicting 3d6 points of piercing damage, giving its target a -2 penalty to its Armor Class for 3 rounds
lvl 3
Spike Growth: transforms the surrounding terrain into spiky plants. Any creature entering the area takes 1d4 points of piercing damage and 1d4 points of slashing damage every round until the spell expires.
3-4 Spike Growths can annihilate an army of enemies very quickly
lvl 4
Smashing Wave: it has range of 100 (!) ft.; the wave deals 4d10 points of crushing damage; in addition, struck creatures may be either stunned (25% chance) or knocked unconscious (5% chance) for 2 rounds.
This spell is unbelievable. The range is enough for half a location to pass. The crushing hits heavily. Stun. Simply amazing.
lvl 5
Spike Stones: reshapes the terrain into spiked projections that blend into the background. Any creature entering the area takes 2d4 Hit Points of piercing damage per round and must make a Save vs. Spell or have its movement rate reduced by 30%.
Combined with Spike Growths, this spell helps to kill enemies in packs.
lvl 6
Summon Fire Elemental - on this level my choice is more a standard one. Fire Elementals are wonderful summons, very useful
Personally, the spells I mentioned actually make a druid a better mage than the mage itself. The fact many of those spells inflict phisical and not magical damage helps a lot.
If you choose a totemic druid, your summoned spirits will become immune to non-magical weapons at the 10th level. They will be immune to many nasty effects in the game as well.
I mean, 2d4 damage per round? That's 5 damage per round on average. That is literally nothing on a 200HP monster. 4d10 on the Wave is also a mere 22 damage on average, even hitting everything on the screen that is scarcely worth spending a round and a spell slot, don't you think? All the while arcane casters have things like Hope/Courage, Improved Haste, Slow etc. What buffs/debuffs does the druid come with? I'm really not well-versed in the class... I constantly keep confusing what is cleric and what is druid only.
Monsters in HoF having huge HP also translates to battles taking long. Dealing 50 damage to every monster that survives for 1 turn (as well as whatever damage that monsters that die before Spike Growth is done take) is pretty good use of a Fighter/Druid's round.
I can see what you mean and the spell definitely sounds cool, it just looks straight worse than a weapon-damage alternative.
And you didn't mention the only spells I deem useful: Static Charge, Iron Skins, Insect Plague, Stalker.
Druids excel in summoning. But in my current game, I see I use summons less and less because they tend to obstruct my characters and are, unless enemies are scattered, usually not needed.
So, I'm not sure the remaining spells have enough value to justify the Druid. It's true spell casters are a top threat in IWD, so Insect Plague comes handy. I can't the deny the extreme usefulness of Iron Skins either.
Still, the same question remains. I'm still not convinced Druids deserve a slot in my party (though I have a Cleric/Ranger).
And Spike Growth isn't impressive indeed. To use it effectively, you either need to stack AoE spells or position your character in such a fashion that the enemies stay in the area while your team members themselves avoid entering in it. In the end, it's just a bothersome strategy and not so efficient spell.
And yes, though it's only one target, you can easily get you 50 damage in two hits.
Also with the number of enemies per battle in this game, which HoF boosts, it's fairly easy to always have a target to hit in melee even if all your characters are sitting on the edge of a spell AoE.
Also keep enemies in the AoE? Most battles in this game don't involve enemies running around everywhere. Enemies find a target then just sit there swinging.
What about other hybrids, though? Like, say, a Fighter->Cleric instead of a Fighter->Druid, who can have 25 STR a surprisingly large portion of the time spent fighting. That's another what, +10 extra damage per swing (assuming the F/D has 18/76 - 18/90 STR)? That should be pretty hard to make up for, not to mention all the other buffs you have access to then.
I'm of course not saying druids are BAD or useless or anything like that - I'm simply questioning whether they are better than the alternatives (from a powergaming point of view, naturally).
Iron Skins has a casting time of 1 in IWDEE (not the 9 it has in BGEE/BG2EE). So that would help quite a bit. Another thing they have (late game) for absorbing damage (besides their Boring Beetle form) is their Water Elemental form (which has 75% physical damage resistances). Between that and Armor of Faith they end up pretty well protected from physical damage.
Another thing is that a lot of enemies in the game probably use either normal or +1 weapons. From what I recall Heart of Fury doesn't change that. So their fire elemental and earth elemental summons could be useful.
So basically they serve different roles.
There's a Scimitar that grants 1 attack. You can't stack the same buff twice, so a second Fighter/Cleric's party buffs won't be as useful as the first's
As for the weapons, there's also 2 flails that give +1 APR (1 random 1 fixed), so that's not really an argument. What about main hand weapons? Is there anything decent for druids? I can't remember, maybe that vanilla club+5 or something?
It's true that the buffs don't stack in magnitude, but having multiples means it's easier to achieve higher uptimes. With two clerics you can be under virtually constant Prayer + Recitation for significant periods of time.
If we're going to talk about min/maxing, then it's fair to assume every Fighter is a dual class.
So everyone has GM, is dual wielding, and has +.5 APR from Fighter 7. So 4.5 APR with a single +APR weapon. Meaning a second APR weapon will only give .5 APR.
Also 16 hits is pretty easy, meaning more hits is feasible.
Given 10 enemies, 2 rounds already gives 20 hits, say 2 enemies die in the next round, that's 28 hits. Another 2 die. 34 hits. Another 2 die. 38 hits. Then the remaining 4 die. A Druid in a single round contributed 190 damage.
I'm rolling with a Fighter/Druid wielding a quarterstaff. She has about 33% of the party's kills, leading the pack by far.
But speaking seriosly, this thread is about druids in HoF.
Dual Wield = +1 = 5/2 APR
GM = +3/2 = 4 APR
That means a single +APR weapon will add +1 APR and get you to 5 APR, i.e. the maximum. But you're right, most damage dealers (and the tank) are likely to be a Fighter dual in HoF, because GM is just that powerful in IWD. (Notable exception is the Archer, which gets GM despite not being a Fighter)
They did that "in a single round", but not OVER a single round. To compare, do the same math with a F->C that is at 25 STR thanks to DuHM and/or RM: that's +10 damage per hit (over a Fighter->Druid with 18/76 - 18/90 STR). At 4 APR over 5 rounds, that's +200 damage - regardless of how many enemies there are, and how many die in the meantime. And that's not even counting the damage added by things like Prayer/Recitation to the entire party, nor the fact that at 25 STR you pretty much miss only on critical misses, while a F->Druid may have more missed rolls due to lower THAC0.
It should probably also be mentioned that Spike Growth deals piercing and slashing damage, the two types which are most commonly resisted (piercing especially), while a F->C will be dealing mostly crushing damage (which is the least commonly resisted). Spike Growth also damage your own team, which can be highly annoying to deal with and can cost you net damage (because you lose time positioning, for example). As with most spells, the damage really only shines in very large groups - but you don't always face the 10-mob packs. Very often it's 3-5, in quick succession. That's a bit awkward for spells to deal with, both because the number of enemies is fairly low and because you run out out of spells more quickly if you have to spend them on low number packs. Pulling more packs to get a large one isn't always feasible, and can cost you damage while getting into position etc., and also puts a strain on the tank due to taking unnecessary hits.
If we're going to talk about late game, then Sorcerers are horrible because Mages and Bards get those spells in the late game anyway. And with small mob packs it doesn't even really matter what spells these classes have because those will get wiped out quickly with a bunch of Fighters with GM.
And DUHM and any other short term buffs won't matter in these battles either.
And by the way, DuHM lasts 1 turn, that's not exactly short. At high levels you can finish many fights in that time, and given that it's basically the only useful lvl 2 spell anyway you can fill your spell book with it until you've got DuHM dripping out the ears. It's also a speed 2 cast, meaning it's very easy to refresh mid combat.
Small mob packs are handled fairly quickly. And since your strategy revolves around recasting every buff for every encounter, Sorcerers are already going to be demanding rest fairly often if they're going to keep up Improved Haste.
And if the hassle of recasting buffs over and over isn't an issue then casting multiple layers of Spike Growth then luring mobs to them shouldn't be an issue either
Efficiency wise, Druids start dealing damage before the battle starts even if the earlier Spike Growths deal less damage it's still enough to make up for their turn. So 4-5 layers of Spike Growth would practically leave mobs with threads of HP. So efficiency wise multiple Druids layering up multiple Spike Growths then resting inbetween each battle is the way to go.
Also this topic isn't about maximum efficiency, it's about the viability of Druids opposed to Clerics. Druids have a 20D4 AoE spell with no save which they get at an incredibly low level. That makes them extremely viable.