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Character sexualization in fan fiction

mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
edited November 2014 in Off-Topic
This discussion was created from comments split from: Fandoms that you're a part of that you hate.

This is a very mature topic. Be sure to respect the PG13 forum rules when posting.
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  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    Hmmm, some interesting points there, but let's not go too far on despising fanfiction writers.

    First off, let me say that yes, it is a shame that a child cannot safely search the internet for My Little Pony (or whatever show it happens to be, really) because of the existence of rule 34 (and human nature). I think it is for the best if adult and X-rated fanfiction hangs out on its own boards/sites, while things rated Teen and below are more accessible. These things will exist, so all we can really hope to accomplish is better organization for the target audience. Quite simply, it is human nature to romanticize/sexualize things. Our great works of classical art and literature are filled with figurative (or even literal) smut. This isn't fair, especially to people who identify as asexual or nonsexual, but life isn't fair. It would be nice if the world worked that way, but it doesn't and it isn't going to so long as things like free speech exist. Getting rid of it creates bigger problems.

    Now, I agree with you on a number of those points, particularly on principal, but realistically all we can do is shake our heads and enforce child safety features on digital devices. As for culture, I have some optimism that the younger the generation is currently (at least in America, from my observations) the more open-minded they are. The people in my age range (late 20's to mid 30's) are showing remarkably healthy attitudes toward sexuality and are open-minded more often than not in regard to a whole bevy of issues. Sure, there are some who embrace paranoia, tradition or xenophobia, but in general I'm finding more and more people you can have a civil discussion on sensitive topics with; again, the younger they are, the more easily the discussion flows.

    I also have an optimistic outlook on why there is so much sexualization of non-sexual characters: the human desire for love and intimacy. The darkest/most disturbing pieces are obviously there for pornographic content (or some other purpose like horror), but most of what I find out there is created from love: love for a character, love for two characters, love of a setting, etc. I'm not going to rain on someone's parade for wanting to create an alternate universe where they can forge a fantasy into being. It should be done in such a way that the correct target audience sees it, but aside from that it doesn't hurt anyone (again, assuming it is the correct target audience seeing it). I've read the Harry Potter series and I've watched the movies, but I have read almost nothing in terms of fanfiction, and that fanfiction isn't ruining my enjoyment of the series despite my vague awareness of it. I don't begrudge people their fantasies though (and who in the fandom hasn't considered a world where Severus and Lily were more than friends?).

    I guess what I'm getting at is the execution of the medium is the problem, not the medium itself. Let people like the things they like, let them create a fantasy if they so wish, just put it where people of the correct age and interest groups are going to see it.

    Anyway, I'm probably getting sidetracked now so I'll stop here, I just wanted to speak in defense of fanfiction writers. In a way, that's what all of fiction is: our fantasies given an outlet.
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    This article touches on the "why are fanfiction writers making straight men gay?" question.

    http://www.dailydot.com/culture/beginners-guide-fandom-fanworks/
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  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    It's an interesting topic though... do you want me to split it into a new topic? @typo_tilly‌ @KidCarnival‌
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  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Yeah, if a new topic isn't too intimate for @typo_tilly. :P
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  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Ok. :)
  • SquireSquire Member Posts: 511
    Apparently, Harry Potter usually ends up getting it on with Draco Malfoy, despite the fact that they canonically hate each other's guts.

    But then, in fanfiction world, hating each other's guts generally equals repressed sexual tension. Trying to kill each other also equals repressed sexual tension. So does being good friends and going out to a strip bar together - having women dance seductively for you is just a way to mask your desire to have your best mate dance seductively in front of you. In fact there aren't many things that don't equal repressed sexual tension in fanfiction world...basically, if there are two guys in the story, there's a good chance somebody will make them bone in a fanfiction.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    KidCarnival said:

    Food for thought regarding the "every celeb is suspected to be gay": Can you name one single non-straight celeb who specifically recieved praise for "playing straight"? In the same way straight celebs recieve praise (and sometimes shiny awards) for "playing gay"? I can't.

    Food for thought, while the praise is dumb, the reason isn't [only] because of a double standard. The fact of the matter is, a straight man is more likely to pick up on the nuances of a gay person much more easily than one who subconsciously has those mannerism. Before you think I'm stereotyping, I'm not, I went to theater college, and a straight man like me tends to be rare. Nearly every gay guy had a certain mannerism that gave them away somehow. It's hard to explain, but they tended to have a sashay and lots of pride.

    While you may think this sounds silly, remember when you have to internalize and actually pay attention to nuances, everything will crumble and you'll start to behave like either a robot or a Fox News anchor.

    On the flip-side, get them to play straight on stage is not a struggle at all. Most women tend to have very good chemistry with gay guys because they feel SAFE! Why wouldn't they? The man that holds them isn't really turned on.

    In any case, I don't understand the problem with sexual characters. There are plenty of people who love to show off their body. I'd love to show off my body if I thought it could make people happy. Men and women alike feel the same, and sometimes it makes them feel powerful... and there's nothing wrong with it. Since art imitates life, why can't fictional characters do so as well? Prostitutes, sex workers, and even those who seduce to get ahead. If it's good enough for reality, why not fiction. To me, it only bothers me if it, like anything else detracts from the overall story.

    Fifty Shades'/Master of the Universe most godawful attribute isn't the sexually abusive relationship being glorified, it's the unrealistic setup of a girl so puritanical and wallflowery that she has no depth or any real place being a protagonist.

    Twilight also suffers from a Tabula Rasa character.

    Saerileth's biggest problem isn't the sixteen year old girl (hell, my own 3rd edition manual says human adulthood is 15!!!) but how poorly written it is and overloaded with focus upon her, and the way its lathed with show don't tell, purple prose and unrealistics... it has nothing to do with her age. She'd still be awful as a 21 year old with large knockers... or even if they were never brought up.

    And that'll segue back to the human body. In real life, large proportions on the human body exist. I think the real problem with these fictional portrayals isn't that they're large, but that they literally define the character. Japanese have an obsession with large knockers stuff tends to be a good example, but there, this stuff tends to be more humor oriented due to Japanese lifestyles... It's hard for me to grasp, I recommend Gaijin Goombah's videos on Youtube, he's well cultured on the matter.

    Just my thirty-five cents here.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Eh, "gay guys in theatre" is a stereotype in itself. I've never been to a theatre or musical since elementary school, and that only because our music teacher took us to a class trip to see Starlight Express. Often, it is a certain type of man who is into theatre, and this includes a certain type of gay man. You won't see gay biker daddies in that scene, for example, and that is a subset of gay men who most certainly have very different mannerisms than the artsy, effimate men people usually associate with theatre/musical. Gay guys in theatre just confirm the stereotype you already have of "gay guys in theatre". There have even been studies about the "gay lisp" and it being a concious thing - men tend to completely lose it before surgery when anesthesia is involved. It's not a natural mannerism, it's learned behavior to show their orientation (and further preferences) to potentially interested partners. It's nothing only gay guys can do/learn, and it's nothing they can't control/stop when a role requires them to not do it. Same as actors use different accents (or just not their native accent) if the character they play is from a different country or area.

    "Most women tend to have very good chemistry with gay guys because they feel SAFE! Why wouldn't they? The man that holds them isn't really turned on."

    You know... actors are professionals. Straight actors are very, very likely also not "turned on" during sex scenes. If a woman doesn't feel "safe" with her partner, she's probably in a low budget basement production, or unprofessional herself.

    "In any case, I don't understand the problem with sexual characters. There are plenty of people who love to show off their body."

    Who said sexual characters are a problem? The problem is the sexualization of minors being apparently perfectly acceptable. If minors "show off their body", that's child porn. If minors are put in sexual relationships with adults, that's at least statutory rape. That is the problem. Neither should be anywhere near "acceptable", yet it is the norm in "fandom". And in this case, art doesn't imitate life. In real life, the adults involved would be charged and put behind bars. In fanfiction, it's romanticized and presented as normal.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    KidCarnival said:

    presented as normal.

    you've hit the nail! That's the real problem here, because it doesn't only spawn porn-ish fanfiction and such stuff on the internet and on nowadays culture, it also leads an entire country to make a genocide against an specific ethnic group of people, or people hearing to a certain music genre/band/somg only because it is popular, the same examples could be given for the continuous usage of drugs portrayed as 'cool' or 'daring', and (surprise surprise!) sexism in general (because there are many, many things that actually *are* sexist but aren't considered as such, why? "Because always it's been that way", "It's what everyone else does", etc), and, as the cherry to top the cake, most people can't see what's wrong, because it seems normal for them, and they follow it blindly because it seems normal and because others also follow it blindly (I call it "sheep effect"). It could also lead to the loss of one's personal ethics on an extreme basis.
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    Okay, let's back up a step again. I think part of the issue here is the vocal minority. Most people who are, say, Islamic are completely chill and just want to live their lives. There's this vocal minority giving them a bad rap, though. Expand this to include most things in life, including fanfiction. People writing fanfiction are already a small percentage of the fanbase, and within that group there are slash/erotica writers, and within THAT group are people writing about some weird and normally illegal activities.

    The thing that throws one for a loop is when culture as a whole shifts. Most states in the U.S. have the legal age of consent at 16 now, for instance. Some places in Europe it's less, some places in the world it's more. Everyone agrees there is some kind of cutoff point, but not where that is exactly. If you're saying that we're not dealing with a vocal minority, you could be looking at a cultural shift, a sliding of values to different numbers and actions. I doubt that's what we're seeing and it's just a vocal minority; but if we're seeing a loosening of values, that's going to make some people uncomfortable and there would be backlash.

    Anyway, getting sidetracked. The issues of misogyny, lack of consent, and violent sexual fetishes throw a lot more red flags for me than, say, a 16-year-old involved in something erotic. Obviously, it gets much more creepy the further towards childhood the characters are, and the further apart their age gap is. I agree with you there is plenty of friggin' weird fanfiction out there, things I would never try to defend as art (or even as acceptable), but I don't really have a solution to that.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    KidCarnival said:


    Who said sexual characters are a problem? The problem is the sexualization of minors being apparently perfectly acceptable. If minors "show off their body", that's child porn. If minors are put in sexual relationships with adults, that's at least statutory rape. That is the problem. Neither should be anywhere near "acceptable", yet it is the norm in "fandom". And in this case, art doesn't imitate life. In real life, the adults involved would be charged and put behind bars. In fanfiction, it's romanticized and presented as normal.

    No argument there. If a woman wants to show off, she should wait until she's 18 before becoming an open business.

    The worst, of course, is Japan. The legal age of consent is 16... supposedly, but content creators are more than okay with fan produced hentai... I won't give any examples, because this stuff is NSF Reality itself.
    LordRumfish said:


    The issues of misogyny, lack of consent, and violent sexual fetishes

    What does misogyny, the hatred of women, have to do with sexualized lolis and slash fiction?

    Unless the topic has changed yet again and I'm slower than a congress usurped by snails.
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    Dazzu said:

    What does misogyny, the hatred of women, have to do with sexualized lolis and slash fiction?

    Unless the topic has changed yet again and I'm slower than a congress usurped by snails.

    Theoretically it has nothing to do with it. In practice, talking about sexualized characters also means talking about objectification. It's not much of a jump from there to see the connection to topics like misandry and misogyny. Topics like those don't exist in vacuums, when you take in the holistic picture it all contributes.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    edited November 2014
    Surprisingly, I don't think CrevsDaak is that far off the mark when he casts a wider net about the consequences of what is seen as "normal". Of course, a cultural shift takes more than a vocal minority, but everything starts with a minority. The more acceptable something becomes in a generation, the more likely it is that thing will be considered "normal" in the generations to follow. If you teach today's teenagers that it's perfectly acceptable and "sexually liberated" if a 15 years old kid has a relationship with a 45 years old adult, it won't be "a big deal" in 50 years from now. Ah, but it's just a "vocal minority"... Except, what about the silent majority? If none of them speaks up, it looks to them like no-one shares their opinion and hence the opinion out in the open must be "the norm", that's what people openly talk about after all.

    As some may know, I have identified as asexual for several years and this label has become "the new bisexual" (= something people claim to be to be "unique" and ditch as soon as something more interesting comes along). I've read various boards about this subject, and what stood out was the really high percentage of teenagers as young as 13, 14, who felt like total freaks and outcasts because they were not sexually active, and everyone around them was basically a porn star in training.

    Let that sink in and think back to when you were that age. Were you in someone new's bed every week? Did you have fetish gear, a kink checklist for potential partners, a polyamorous relationship with 6 genderqueer pansexuals? Did your friends do that? Probably not. It's been 20 years since I was 14, and I frankly doubt much has changed. Teenagers today are still not the mortal avatars of FetLife. But the "vocal minorities" make people feel that way. Slut shaming has turned into the opposite. Being a virgin used to be a virtue; something people were proud of not giving away to the next best willing piece of meat. Today, virgin is a slur, same as calling someone "vanilla". It's used to say "You are boring/a prude". Shaming people for NOT having an arsenal of fetishes and sleeping around is not "sexually liberated". It's just a different version of shaming people for their preferences and life choices.



    Japan. I agree that there is a huge cultural misunderstanding at work. In the western world, Japan is "the perverted" country due to their porn, but a lot of the "weird porn" stems from the way the culture treats sex. Tentacle porn is not there because the Japanese thought "geez, dongs don't do it for us anymore, let's use tentacles instead". It's there because dongs were taboo and tentacles were not, hence drawing a tentacle instead got around the censorship. It's the same thing as saying "dang" instead of "damn"; make it just different enough for the censorship to not apply, but unmistakenly have the same place/function. Ironically, Japan is leading another curious interntional chart, right next to "weird porn". And that is a notably above average ratio of young people with no interest in sex. Here are some random first page results for "Japan asexual":
    http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2012/03/23/increasing-numbers-of-japans-youth-are-asexual/
    http://sociologicalimagination.org/archives/14374
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/NC13Dh01.html
    http://www.thedatereport.com/dating/sex/an-epidemic-of-asexuality-is-plaguing-japan/

    So much for Japan being the weird sex capital of the world. Weird porn is just something the west eats up as an export good. It's like a vegetarian running a steakhouse because the money is good.


    In other not-so-news, I still call bullshit on "reasons for slash fanfiction". If it was really "underrepresentation", it's weirdly specific that fanfiction is so keen on correcting the "gay men" ratio while completely ignoring all the other underrepresented demographics. There are the racial minorities as mentioned above, there are religious and cultural minorities. There is no celebrated subgenre about "what if character A was a taoist", "what if character B was Russian", "what if character C was black". None at all. The only thing people keep changing is sexual orientation (and sometimes gender, judging by the fanart I've seen on DeviantArt, not sure it's a "big" thing) of straight male characters. Now, sure, there ARE fewer gay characters people could turn straight, and I agree it would be unneccessary to do that as there are usually enough straight characters to write about as it is. But there are not vastly more lesbians or bisexuals than gay characters, yet lesbians and bisexuals remain a minority in fanfiction/fanart, too.
    The only notable lesbian couple I remember from DA is from the Xena fandom (I haven't watched it, so I don't know if it's a canon couple). For gay guys, I can't think of a single fandom that doesn't have multiple apparently popular couples, most not canon even if gay characters are present.

    In the end, it does come down to objectifying people based on their orientation. "Fag hag" is a thing. "Gay best friend" is still seen as a "fashion accessory" in some circles. On the other hand, I have never heard from a straight man that he desperately wants a lesbian best friend, or latches onto every butch dyke in sight to appropriate her culture, hang out in lesbian bars with her and what not.
    Straight women (well, girls, usually) think of gay men as a trendy accessory where the only important trait is them being gay. Straight guys watch lesbian porn and call it a day.
    And, surprise, there are studies that suggest lesbian porn is also popular with straight women because it's more sensual/less fake/less degrading (and lacks the beer bellied grunting male element many - men and women alike - consider a turn off in straight porn). So no, all the "suddenly everyone is gay" fanfiction still doesn't add up. And I still consider it degrading and objectifying toward men. If a "fan" doesn't even respect the (straight) actor's sexual orientation, I can't see them respecting the rest of the person either. And, in case of fictional characters, I assume the writer who came up with them had a reason to make them straight/gay/whatever. If I don't like it, fine, but I won't start to "read subtext" between the lines to "prove" the creator wrong about their own damn character.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I was going to write my thoughts here, but as it turns out I don't have time for this. So, TL;DR version:
    - Sexualization of minors is not OK.
    - Oversexualization is a problem that you aren't going to solve, because "sex sells" rule. Best to have healthy distance to it.
    - NSFW content should be either marked as such, or belong to it's own site that is dedicated to that.
    - Let's stop pretending. It doesn't mean a thing if you hide or restrict NSFW content in any way, because minor will find it regardless if it wants. Thanks to the internet.
    - Aside from that, people are free to express themselves, even their fetishes.
    - These fetishes ought to be marked somehow, so that people would know what to expect before seeing the fanart/fanfiction
    - Expressing, sometimes disturbing, fetishes via fanart/fanfiction is still better than trying to force them on someone in real life. My suggestion is not approving, but tolerate most of them.
    - Sexuality, overall, is a complex thing. There is no 100% clear mark that says when it's right and when it's wrong.
    - Have a good day.
  • old_jolly2old_jolly2 Member Posts: 453
    the answer is 42


    just sayin'...
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Just dropped back in to remark that another reason why slash is produced is because sometimes, like Yaoi in Japanese fiction, it exists because the relationship between two males is a relationship from parity. In other words, male/female relationships have a sometimes cultural divide where to be female is seen as weak, less than a male, or to be the weaker/needier/whatever in a relationship with a man. The man is in charge, the woman is supposed to look up to him, guided by him (whatever that means) and be an ornament to his life (Like the whole concept of a "trophy wife"). Whereas two men approach each other (starting as friends) on a more equal plane. Some women/girls want to experience that kind of a relationship without the cultural baggage.

    Also, I'd say the genesis of slash was around the original Star Trek series, with Kirk and Spock. Look at the dynamic there- Kirk sleeps with tons of women, but he never has the kind of relationship with them that he has with Spock. It's exploring the relationship rather than the sex that was important. Of course, given that this was the late 60's/early 70's, yes, sex was also going to come into it. Sex between two men as the ultimate expression of love and friendship.

    I'm not saying this is the reason for *every* bit of slash. And maybe sometimes, the writer doesn't even know the reason why she's focusing on the two characters being together. There are many reasons for writing a relationship for a character or two- you like the characters, you want them to be together. Or you like the character but you want to fix him or her by writing a better life for them with character X. It's always problematic to write yourself or an author avatar into the story, you get accused of that character being a Mary Sue. Sometimes even if the character is female and is just seen as having a relationship of some sort with a canon male character, they are declared Mary Sues, not because the character is actually exhibiting Mary Sue characteristics, but because the accuser is jealous of the implied relationship.

    That's another reason to use a male character rather than a female character- jealousy. The writer who writes the story wants herself to be the recipient of the character's affections, but having a female stand-in is too threatening, so they'll write a male stand-in instead. Sometimes, it's so bad that the writer flanderizes all the female characters as jealous female dogs (you know the b-word I mean) trying to come between the pure, perfect love between the two male characters- because the second male character is the author stand-in for herself and she can't stand to see another woman steal "her" man- even in fiction. To the point where even women in-canon who had past relationships with the male character are, dare I use the word, "demonized", into jealous harpies who cannot stand to see the male character in a happy relationship with someone else besides them and do the most ludicrous stuff trying to break up the character and his new flame because JEALOUSY. It's quite frankly sickening to read. But everyone (both reader and writer) has no problem with the male romance, because it's understood that this is the female reader/writer stand-in, the one they can imagine themselves to be. Even for me, I find it a bit scary. Sometimes more than a bit.

    Hopefully, though, this is something the writer outgrows. But it's easy to get locked into that mode of thinking when many, many readers will praise you for writing something that conforms to their prejudices. When readers get angry that a writer didn't bash female character A enough for daring to think she had a chance with their favorite character. When they use the terms "female dog" and worse to describe a character simply because they had a past relationship with their favorite male character. It's sick. It's horrible. And it still happens because many people who write that kind of fanfic are teenage girls… or are stuck in that kind of mindset.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    The key words, I believe for whether a media portrayal is bad or not, are intent and pandering. If a character/plot exists to pander to an audience with the sole purpose of saying "hey, you like anything related with X, so you'll like this by default!" then you've failed! Why? Because you likely don't care about the effort required and your intent just want quick fame/money by pandering to a more than likely brain-dead audience. Think of it akin to an Asylum film that has no love of anything but ripping off an original story or a pirated game: there's no love, just dollar signs in the eyes.

    A lot of fetishy sexual stuff that pisses me off is when it seems to exist because its intent is poor.
    KidCarnival said:

    So much for Japan being the weird sex capital of the world. Weird porn is just something the west eats up as an export good. It's like a vegetarian running a steakhouse because the money is good.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PKwcJVa3dU&index=12&list=PL4F31A66C32EB96B9
    LadyRhian said:

    male/female relationships have a sometimes cultural divide where to be female is seen as weak, less than a male, or to be the weaker/needier/whatever in a relationship with a man. The man is in charge, the woman is supposed to look up to him, guided by him (whatever that means) and be an ornament to his life (Like the whole concept of a "trophy wife").

    Maybe it's just me, but I watch a lot of sitcoms... isn't it that the women characters are shrewd, witty, and look at their men like "Oh that dumb ogre said or did something stupid again!" *Laugh track* I don't recall the sitcom that has a man beat his wife. Hell, "To the moon Alice" was probably the most wife abuse I've ever heard of in that genre and that's what... older than most of us?

    Even in shows growing up, the woman always seems to be the take charge parent.


    Then again, I think that women just write two men because they... get this: they like men and 2 > 1. It's not something for them to be as ashamed of as they actually are about it.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Dazzu Mothers are generally seen as awesome, and lately, yeah, Media tend to paint men as slightly ridiculous. But even media in which women are smarter, etc than men, women's lives are depicted as needing a man to be fulfilled. Even things like Sex and the City- a woman without a man is a rather pathetic thing. It's never even questioned that a woman somehow "needs" a man to have a fulfilled life. Think about a woman who is all alone- seen as pathetic to her friends. There are no (or very few) women who are happier sans a man in media. That's the reason why the end of Frozen was such a shock. A Disney Princess who *doesn't* end up married (or with a man, on her way to being married)? Forfend the thought!

    Usually the idea is that the woman needs to make the man be less clueless in a social sense, but a woman who can't catch a man is, like I said, pathetic and "Needs help". Being without a boyfriend or "significant other" is a lack, who all your attached friends will try and fix for you. (to be fair, this also is true for men- the long term bachelor is also a pathetic figure who needs to be "fixed"- but it's cultural, too. There is no space for someone who is happy being alone, everyone assumes you must be pathetically unhappy and would be so much better off in a relationship.)

    Men are generally seen as socially pathetic, but think about this. When you want to put a man down in a really bad way, what do you call him? Womanish. Think of a lot of insults to men- they are gendered insults, and they compare him to being a woman. Pussy, bitch, Man-whore… these are all comparing a man to a woman. And the last one is even more ironic in that being a "whore" is seen as a female trait because you have to change it to "Man-whore" to make it apply to man. Gigolo is rarely remembered as a word and doesn't have the same connotation as "whore". This is why I say being a woman is seen as less than a man. Usually, words associated with man or being manly is seen as a good thing. When men are weak or complaining, they are told to "Man up" or "Be a man". i.e. being a man is a good thing to be. Have you ever heard someone say, "woman up!" or "Be a woman"? Why not? That's something you don't want to be.

    And to be fair, there are insults about being TOO manly. But some of them are just barely insults or can be used both ways, like "Macho" or "Over-testosteroned". But Macho isn't always an insult. And may I also say that the use of "rape" to mean "Won overwhelmingly" grosses me out? Hearing a man talking about playing touch football (or some video game or something) and describing beating the other team as "We raped their asses!" just completely creeps me out.
  • old_jolly2old_jolly2 Member Posts: 453
    edited November 2014
    @LadyRhian finally a post that I can approve to spend time understanding.

    First two paragraphs contains your observations tucked under "usually" ies and "generally" ies. But especially the second one has a little more certainty , the very last sentence. To be alone is impossible. There are millions&millions people around. So you will definitely run to a man ( which man is short for human ) , and you will definitely treat him/er like a human should be. So , there will be no escape from social interactions really based upon coincidences , and running away , hiding under blankets will definitely prove useless and emo-fantastic. What I want to connect this into is , that you can easily defend yourself if your relationships don't go that further , because like I said a relationship is inevitable and inevitably will improve that only is depending on logicality of the interaction/relation. That , you can say that , it is not something you can directly intervene to have a relationship(s) go deeper. e.g. I liked the look of a woman. I want to start a relationship with her. But the situation ( the place , the time , ... ) this is happening leaves definitely no logical moves to make this true. It is a wrong thing to "motivate" people. And in this sense , it is wrong to motivate someone to get a friend.

    Well the paragraph about insults , I disagree at some points. It is more a sociogeological think , I think. The women are quiet , this is true. They don't rebel , and they don't act to raise their own voices , I don't know why. Remember the joke I made about "woman's intelligence" , that I said some men choose to endure that for a hope to be entertained. Now , the joke aside , the truth behind this actually leads to "the insults containing feminine abuse". Like I said in the paragraph above , many men force themselves into relations with women , they like the looks of that women , but they just can't see a reasonable way too approach them. Now , when they force themselves , and reasonable women reject them because it feels so odd , so strange and irritating , women seem to men like they don't understand them. But the truth is those men even don't understand themselves. But , adding the quality that women are quiet , men easily find their superiority by using women genital references , easily offending women brain , et cetera ; this fake hate even continues beyond borders of social interactions , some people attempt to use this to create some one-night stand fantasies in their heads , like women can't play games because their reflexes are dumb , etc. But the simplicity that women are human , and the truth `they simply don't want` is not attractive enough for all those men who try to sedate their self-guilt.

    And for the last paragraph , street language and slang language are both necessary elements to express feelings for some percentage of the population. Not everyone are raised in castles and citadels money everywhere , having so much warranted future that you feel you can even kill yourself by reading only books. It is language within a language , so like any other language it has a certain logic of usage. It will make no sense if not used properly. And , very importantly , in case of street language only , because words are used out of their common meanings in street language ( possibly the movement of rebellion ? ) , if you plan to take the sentence out of the context/environment it has been used and try to analyze it alone by itself , it will be ridicilous at many times , disgusting and irritating. Like very simple , the example you have given.


    Just think a little more wide open. There are many men too , like me , who are attacked by women. They even defend themselves atop that , and because a woman is listened with ears open , but when a man talks , meh... you get to be executed even if your intentions were irrelevant of those what women load unto you , using you to sedate their own self-guilt. So , this is the another reason , hence , the usage of feminine-inferiority implied street language words. Because , government , society ,... they are all feminarchies in the sense of attention black-hole and the target of all sycophancy.
    Post edited by old_jolly2 on
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited November 2014
    "The amounts of walls of text in this thread is too damn high."

    I don't read fanfiction. I want my sanity and not rip my eyes out and burn them.
    When I read or see something, I want some quality in art like drawing or writing.

    Also I'm a fairly open-minded person about sex and sexuality and even some fetishes.
    I might not like them but I understand them and why people might like them.

    And I won't even go into the man vs woman thing too much.
    We are different but equal.
    That means different expectations, different insults, different attitudes, different compliments, different points of view.
    Despite some wanting women to be the same as men to be equal.

    Sameness =/= equality
    Post edited by Archaos on
  • old_jolly2old_jolly2 Member Posts: 453
    @Archaos everybody actually knows everything about it , but they still open the thread to view about it , even if they know it is not a funny thing. And the temptation to write something here , like I did 2 times , will only prove to me one thing : All these posts are monologues. No one is talking to each other here. Like the 3rd time now I'm doing here.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @LadyRhian - Still not seeing the "logic". First off, if a relationship between man and woman puts the woman in the "weak" position, why is there so much less written about female-female relationships? That also puts both characters on equal ground, no difference. And second, since you mention "yaoi"... the "make both characters equally strong/weak" goes right out of the window with the application of "seme/uke" dynamics. The result is usually not "equal strength", it's usually making one character manly-macho-dominant and the other effimate-soft-submissive: the very role a female character is accused of having in that relationship. What's the point?

    "Then again, I think that women just write two men because they... get this: they like men and 2 > 1. It's not something for them to be as ashamed of as they actually are about it."

    This rings much more true than any of the "reasons why slash is written". Especially the second sentence. Why do women make such a fuzz about it "not being about sex"? Why claim it's about "exploring characters in a new situation"? Why claim it's about the "challenge"? Why violently defend the stance it's "not sex"? No-one in the history of forever has made such claims about lesbian or straight porn. If anything, people joke about the ridicolous "plots" a la "you ordered a pizza with EXTRA SAUSAGE?"
    Slash/yaoi fans seem to consider themselves beyond approach because "it's not about sex, it's about exploring characters". Imagine a straight guy told you he's into lesbian porn because of the "well written plots". You'd say "yeah and I read Playboy for the well researched articles" and you'd both have a good laugh about it.

    All the stuff about "writer is jealous of female characters having a chance with their favorite male character"... Geez. These people need their head examined. It's fictional characters. No-one has a chance with them because they don't exist. And even if the characters were real, it's pretty weird to make the guy they want gay, because that certainly seals the deal of "never having a chance" for any female person. If your logic is that far gone, you need to see a shrink to function in reality.



    The sitcoms. I agree that in most cases, if there is a family the sitcom is about, the woman is the "smart" one, the man the "dumb" one. I have nothing to back up this theory, but I think that is pandering to the audience. Most family sitcoms with that traditional premise - "here's a typical family and these are their wacky everyday adventures" - started out with the assumption that the audience would be mainly female and likely mothers who stayed at home (and therefore had time to watch the show). Writing the wife as smart and running the show despite having a dumb husband creates a lead the (assumed) main audience would like and identify with. This extends to shows that are not about traditional families - there will still be a strong, opinionated female character that the man needs to get shit done, and said man will usually be a single father (hence still deal with things a stay at home mother has in her life, and therefore be relatable).
    Then you have cartoons and showed aimed at children with that dynamic. I suspect there's more an educational aspect at work than misandry. "Your dad brings home the bread, but your mom works hard, too, just like that awesome mom on TV, so don't give her even more work". I don't think these shows try to teach kids that their dad is secretly a moron. I think they try to keep kids in line and show respect for their mom's work-that-isn't-a-"real job".

    I can also think of several shows where the parents were equals. Either equally dumb - Peg and Al Bundy, or just equally not-dumb (Kate and Willy Tanner from Alf come to mind, Dan and Roseanne, the parents in Fresh Prince of Bel Air). It's probably confirmation bias - once you begin to think "dads are always dumb in sitcoms", you begin thinking about Homer Simpson and blend out less present/memorable shows with a different dynamic. In the case of the Bundy clan, there's even a reversal that parodies the "strongwilled woman = awesome, submissive man = weak idiot" with Darcy and Jefferson, where he is usually less of an idiot/more reasonable than she is, despite her clearly "wearing the pants". Both are still dumb, but a different kind of dumb.


    Speaking of gender roles and representation in movies/TV, what does everyone think about the Bechdel Test? Relevant? Outdated? Forced? Helpful?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited November 2014
    Dazzu said:

    KidCarnival said:


    Who said sexual characters are a problem? The problem is the sexualization of minors being apparently perfectly acceptable. If minors "show off their body", that's child porn. If minors are put in sexual relationships with adults, that's at least statutory rape. That is the problem. Neither should be anywhere near "acceptable", yet it is the norm in "fandom". And in this case, art doesn't imitate life. In real life, the adults involved would be charged and put behind bars. In fanfiction, it's romanticized and presented as normal.

    No argument there. If a woman wants to show off, she should wait until she's 18 before becoming an open business.
    Good luck making that happen.
    LadyRhian said:

    Think of a lot of insults to men- they are gendered insults, and they compare him to being a woman. Pussy, bitch, Man-whore… these are all comparing a man to a woman. And the last one is even more ironic in that being a "whore" is seen as a female trait because you have to change it to "Man-whore" to make it apply to man.

    To be fair, no one really likes to be called something they're not, especially when it comes to gender. I don't know that man- whore is a good example, it kinda makes sense seeing a male prostitute is somewhat of an outlier.


    Honestly though, you guys with your political correctness and walls of text are overthinking it. what it comes down to is that people like sex, and they will write about that in a way that reflects that, just the same way the draw and photograph stuff in a way that reflects that. They've been doing it since writing began, and they're going to keep doing it'd or a long time.
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