[Not an Issue] [PC] unconscious trolls save vs fire arrows and don't die

smeagolheart

1. Start a new HoW game with the default party.
2. Ensure that Party AI is turned OFF.
3. C:CreateItem("bow01")
3. C:CreateItem("arow08",255)
4. C:CreateCreature("troll")
5. Knock the troll unconscious
6. Shoot a fire arrow at it.
7. Watch the Troll save vs spell and not die.

Observed:
The message "Troll was immune to my damage." and "Troll Save vs. Spell 15" appears in the combat log.
Screenshot:

Expected:
Die troll, die

Galactygon

I think this behavior seems to be intended.

Though I think it would be more realistic if helpless creatures should always fail their saving throws against effects that involve dodging (such as fire arrows, fireballs and the like). After all, they can be hit automatically with ranged weapons (which is less realistic but existing behavior).

Troodon80

When you say knock it unconscious—is that using the fire arrows or using fists?

smeagolheart

Troodon80 said:

When you say knock it unconscious—is that using the fire arrows or using fists?

@Troodon80
I attacked it with melee regular weapons the default equipment from HOW default party (but I didn't use the newly created arrows) until it falls down like Trolls do.

I attacked it with fire arrows, 1st attack save with a 15, 2nd attack save with a 20, then the third arrow killed it

I meant unconscious that way, the normal troll knockdown.

smeagolheart

Galactygon said:

I think this behavior seems to be intended.

Though I think it would be more realistic if helpless creatures should always fail their saving throws against effects that involve dodging (such as fire arrows, fireballs and the like). After all, they can be hit automatically with ranged weapons (which is less realistic but existing behavior).

I think that it didn't work this way in BG2 and IWD original, in those when you hit with a fire arrow they are dead.

It should be autodead when hit by fire arrows. If you try an acid arrow, they die immediately, I've just seen them not die repeatedly with fire arrows, they make the save same as in the screenshot.

Redrake

No. It did work just like that in the original IWD. They get a save vs fire damage from arrows. If you use burning hands or scorcher or those nice potions lizard shamans carry around you'll mitigate that issue.

smeagolheart

Doesn't work that way in bg2, did it? Anyway, still seems like a bug, how can it be that something unconscious makes a save? It's not like he can roll out of the way.

Why doesn't he get a save vs acid arrows then too? Those always work.

aldain

smeagolheart said:

Doesn't work that way in bg2, did it? Anyway, still seems like a bug, how can it be that something unconscious makes a save? It's not like he can roll out of the way.

Why doesn't he get a save vs acid arrows then too? Those always work.

Because acid arrows do not offer a save to begin with (check the item description).

OlvynChuru

I think that if the fire arrows should have a saving throw, it should be save for half, not save for none.

smeagolheart

OlvynChuru said:

I think that if the fire arrows should have a saving throw, it should be save for half, not save for none.

then there's no need for any saving throw at all because 1 point of fire damage is enough to kill a troll

OlvynChuru

smeagolheart said:

OlvynChuru said:

I think that if the fire arrows should have a saving throw, it should be save for half, not save for none.

then there's no need for any saving throw at all because 1 point of fire damage is enough to kill a troll

I know, my point was that if they insist on keeping the damage saving throw-based, it shouldn't be save for none.

Galactygon

In my personal opinion, saving throws that involve reflexes should not be allowed for unconscious/helpless characters. So yes, I am on the "slay unconscious trolls automatically" side of the argument. Otherwise, I am not against allowing a saving throw to negate fire damage entirely.

Suggestion: Implement a no saving throw bit for helpless creatures in the .eff format, where there is already a bit for "ignore mirror images".

Illydth

So honestly I'm not sure there's a "side" or "argument" to be had here. Acid Arrows do not provide a save AT ALL...at any point for any reason. You hit, they are affected.

Flame arrows specifically state in the item description that there is a save associated with a flame arrow.

I appreciate the request:

* Save for Half
* Implement a "Unconsious = No Save" status

Both of these are enhancements to the game, NOT bugs. The game is working AS INTENDED: Acid Arrows do not allow a save by text and do not allow a save by game. Fire arrows allow a save by text and allow a save by game.

Beyond this, there is DEFINITELY reason for an enhancement request (makes sense), but I don't think this can be considered a bug.

smeagolheart

I think you've got it on a technicality. On a side note to the technicality, I'm pretty sure this isn't how it works in BG2 so this is a quirk of IWD

OlvynChuru

I'd like to bring up another question: what do you all think that the saving throw for a fire arrow represents? Obviously it doesn't represent dodging the arrow, because if it did, the arrow wouldn't do any regular piercing damage upon a successful save either.

Illydth

@OlvynChuru: I apologize for asking this but I'd like to keep the discussion in this thread to a minimum since it's in the bug reporting section. Developers sometimes refer back to these threads while trying to fix or re-test a bug report, and the fewer "discussion" parts, the easier it is to weed the relevant information out.

Looks like an awesome thread for one of the discussion boards however, I'd love to see how that one plays out there!

@smeagolheart: Do the arrows in BG2 have the identifier of a save on them? Looks like they do indeed...so I may retract my statement then...this very well could be a bug if it's working differently BG2 vs. IWD. Or perhaps BG2 is what's bugged. We'll have to let a Dev make a comment on this. Thanks for the addition of the comparison, I didn't know that.

Dee

Working correctly within the current parameters of the item and the game's engine.