Can a kensai be a tank?

JuliusBorisov

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, this is a topic for a separate thread.

This discussion was created from comments split from: Kensai Problems.

Now when this is a separate thread, you can discuss to death whether a kensai can be a tank or not.

Cheers!

Wowo

Dekeon said:

I'm in dragon eye and he has only 2 AC. I have the wolf necklace and boots..and hes getting HAMMERED big time...using spells and resting SO much im not used to this...am i doing something wrong? I'm 4 manning this adventure,,,Cleric, Wiz,Kensai, Ranger.

Kensei is not a tank. Get the enemies focused on your other characters and then bring the kensei in.

Zyzzogeton

Crits happen 5% of the time.

Unless the player is playing on Insane or HoF they're not a problem for a Kensai that has -10 AC and not extremely low HP

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Crits happen 5% of the time.

Unless the player is playing on Insane or HoF they're not a problem for a Kensai that has -10 AC and not extremely low HP

5% is still significant and -10 AC is not enough. It's fine until monsters get lucky and land a couple of crits in a row, then things turn sideways very quickly. Even on core difficulty I wouldn't have a tank without a helmet or skins.

Then again, with reloading as an option anything works.

Zyzzogeton

You do realize that if you're playing on Insane or HoF then it's like the enemy is critting all the time, except those crits can't be stopped with Helmets and don't auto hit, with a 5% of a double effect crit which can be reduced to a regular Crit by a Helmet

If you can't trust a character with -10 AC but no helmet to tank in Core then you can't trust a character with -10 AC with a helmet to tank in Insane.

Also any Fighter is still going to be brought down by a long enough string of 20's from the enemy thanks to how many of them there are. If you're afraid of enemies rolling natural 20's nonstop then you shouldn't be using characters as tanks to begin with.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

You do realize that if you're playing on Insane or HoF then it's like the enemy is critting all the time, except those crits can't be stopped with Helmets and don't auto hit, with a 5% of a double effect crit which can be reduced to a regular Crit by a Helmet

If you can't trust a character with -10 AC but no helmet to tank in Core then you can't trust a character with -10 AC with a helmet to tank in Insane.

Also any Fighter is still going to be brought down by a long enough string of 20's from the enemy thanks to how many of them there are. If you're afraid of enemies rolling natural 20's nonstop then you shouldn't be using characters as tanks to begin with.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. On HoF I find -15 to -17 AC to be about the sweet spot and my 2 primary tanks of course have skins so absorb the hits that they do take.

Single class kensei or kensei/(cleric or thief) just aren't meant to tank. If you reduce the difficulty then I'm sure it's fine.

Zyzzogeton

Hence

Unless the player is playing on Insane or HoF they're not a problem for a Kensai that has -10 AC and not extremely low HP

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Hence

Unless the player is playing on Insane or HoF they're not a problem for a Kensai that has -10 AC and not extremely low HP

I'm suggesting that even on core difficulty expecting a kensai to tank is a struggle.

I'd much rather have a spellcaster do it (like the cleric in the above party).

Zyzzogeton

I'm suggesting that even on core difficulty expecting a kensai to tank is a struggle

Except it already overcomes this struggle with -10 AC.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

I'm suggesting that even on core difficulty expecting a kensai to tank is a struggle

Except it already overcomes this struggle with -10 AC.

But you're arriving at this -10 in a very round about way. Single weapon style means losing 1 to 4 attacks every round. Skald is great but I hope you have another 4 characters making use of his song.

If you want a kensai to tank on normal difficulty then:
- spirit armour 1 AC
- dexterity -3 AC
- protection from evil -5 AC
- ring of protection +2 -7 AC
- kensai bonus -9 AC
- wolf paw amulet -10 AC

Are all those numbers correct?

Anyway, that's fine for most situations but you're spending time and resources buffing a character that still won't stand toe-to-toe with the baddest badasses without taking some serious hits.

My point is that you're best off having a proper tank who's AC doesn't need to be micromanaged and isn't going to lose chunks of health to the occasional critical.

Zyzzogeton

If your issue was how -10AC was reached then you should have addressed that earlier.

My point is that if a Kensai has -10AC then it can tank Core.

My point is that you're best off having a proper tank who's AC doesn't need to be micromanaged and isn't going to lose chunks of health to the occasional critical.

This isn't about what's best. It's about if a Kensai can tank in Core with -10 AC, however it arrives at that number, not if it's the best tank.

Wowo

I don't see that -10 AC overcomes the chief issue of lacking a helmet, even on core.

-10 AC isn't enough for the monsters that are actually an issue.

If you have to sacrifice damage to get the AC then it defeats the purpose of a kensai in the first place (by using SWS).

Zyzzogeton

So the player isn't going to take extra precautions for the situations -10 AC is insufficient because why again?

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

So the player isn't going to take extra precautions for the situations -10 AC is insufficient because why again?

There's no precautions that can be taken against critical hits when you're not immune to them.

Zyzzogeton

Summons drawing aggro

kensai

I agree with @Wowo here. Kensai isn't a tank it's typical dps machine and needs proper micro management. So even with -10 AC (which is pretty weak AC btw) he's still fairly vulnerable.
And if you still insist on playing kensai as a tank then I propose stacking physical resistances instead of AC.

Zyzzogeton

Having a tank doesn't automatically mean the rest of the party is just standing there taking their sweet time killing stuff. -10 AC is fine if the rest of the party doesn't lag in their damage dealing duties.

If you want a tank which will tank for a party that takes forever to kill anything, sure -10AC won't cut it. But if the rest of the party is capable, then -10AC is fairly high in Core.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Having a tank doesn't automatically mean the rest of the party is just standing there taking their sweet time killing stuff. -10 AC is fine if the rest of the party doesn't lag in their damage dealing duties.

If you want a tank which will tank for a party that takes forever to kill anything, sure -10AC won't cut it. But if the rest of the party is capable, then -10AC is fairly high in Core.

Not gona let go of this one are you?

Zyzzogeton

Except again it's not about how the Kensai is the perfect tank. It's about the Kensai being an adquate tank.

Using Summons when the Kensai can't tank on their own won't net you a game over. It might take longer to win but you'll still win.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Except again it's not about how the Kensai is the perfect tank. It's about the Kensai being an adquate tank.

Using Summons when the Kensai can't tank on their own won't net you a game over. It might take longer to win but you'll still win.

If you're using summons to tank then the kensei is no longer the tank which basically vindicates everything that I've said.

Sure the kensai can tank but so can any class, technically. The point is that the attributes that a kensai brings to the tanking role are less than almost any other class.

Let's consider what the Kensei brings:
- fighter hit dice
- kit qualities (+2 AC but no armour or bracers - a net loss in most cases)

Compared to other warriors:
- fighter hit dice
- crit immunity
- armour use
- kit benefits

Compared to divines:
- good hit dice
- crit immunity
- potent self buffs
- self healing
- skins and shape changing (druid only)

Compared to Arcanes:
- potent self buffs
- skins and shape changing

Compared to rogues:
- potent self buffs (bard only)
- defensive spin (blade only)
- skins and shape changing (bard only)

In conclusion, unless you have a party comprising of thieves, kenseis and arcanes there'll be a better candidate to tank and even then the arcane will quickly surpass the kensei as the best tank.

Zyzzogeton

Kensai tanks most situations, which is something you said, and for instancews they can't, summons can be used. This isn't an either or situation.

Also when determining if something can perform a role, it doesn't matter who does it better. This isn't about if the Kensai is a preferrable tank but if it can tank.

Zyzzogeton

I seriously doubt there are lots of people who make Kensais and later down the road suddenly decide to dual them. I'd bet most Kensai DC's are planned from character creation.

So if someone has a Kensai that wasn't destined to dual from birth, chances are it's going to stay a Kensai to the end.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Kensai tanks most situations, which is something you said, and for instancews they can't, summons can be used. This isn't an either or situation.

Also when determining if something can perform a role, it doesn't matter who does it better. This isn't about if the Kensai is a preferrable tank but if it can tank.

Okay. Thieves are tanks.

Fardragon

Zyzzogeton said:

I seriously doubt there are lots of people who make Kensais and later down the road suddenly decide to dual them. I'd bet most Kensai DC's are planned from character creation.

So if someone has a Kensai that wasn't destined to dual from birth, chances are it's going to stay a Kensai to the end.

Quite. I very much doubt the OP's kensai has the 17 int required to dual class to mage.

Zyzzogeton

Sure a Thief can be a tank. All a tank needs to do is survive long enough for the party to kill enemies. That's what a tank is supposed to do, it doesn't need to be able to stand there and never ever die.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Sure a Thief can be a tank. All a tank needs to do is survive long enough for the party to kill enemies. That's what a tank is supposed to do, it doesn't need to be able to stand there and never ever die.

So, everyone can tank. What is your point then?

Zyzzogeton

Isn't that obvious? That the Kensai can tank in core rules, especially if someone gets it down to -10 AC

Fardragon

Zyzzogeton said:

Isn't that obvious? That the Kensai can tank in core rules, especially if someone gets it down to -10 AC

But why would you? We already know the OP has a cleric, who can get to AC -10 much more easily, and get physical damage reduction and critical hit immunity.

Zyzzogeton

Last I checked using a Kensai doesn't prohibit the use of spellcasters.

All a tank needs to do is survive until the rest of the party kills all the enemies. Being able to stand while the rest of the party does nothing letting enemies just beat down on them, survive with full HP, survive with minimal damage? None of that is what a tank needs to do.

If it walks out of every encounter with 1 HP, no party members dead, and all enemies dead. Then it fulfilled its duty as a tank.

Wowo

Zyzzogeton said:

Last I checked using a Kensai doesn't prohibit the use of spellcasters.

All a tank needs to do is survive until the rest of the party kills all the enemies. Being able to stand while the rest of the party does nothing letting enemies just beat down on them, survive with full HP, survive with minimal damage? None of that is what a tank needs to do.

If it walks out of every encounter with 1 HP, no party members dead, and all enemies dead. Then it fulfilled its duty as a tank.

Needing significant amounts of healing after every fight is a big drain on resources and does not an effective tank make.

A tank should walk out of every encounter with full HP. Every HP lost is a question mark on their ability to tank and for a kensei there are a lot of question marks.

Zyzzogeton

Needing significant amounts of healing after every fight is a big drain on resources and does not an effective tank make.

That's an efficient tank, an effective tank does what a tank is supposed to do. Take hits no one in the party dies. Unless the party is incapable of resting and the resources used prohibits the player from finishing the game,then it doesn't matter how much of the party's resources a tank drains.

Clerics empty their spellbooks? So what. You get a full spellbook at a click of a button. A Mage can ensure safe resting with Invisibility 10' radius. So even the danger of resting is a non issue.

A tank should walk out of every encounter with full HP. Every HP lost is a question mark on their ability to tank and for a kensei there are a lot of question marks.

No it doesn't.

Again the only requirement is that the player wins the battle and no party member dies.