Needing significant amounts of healing after every fight is a big drain on resources and does not an effective tank make.
That's an efficient tank, an effective tank does what a tank is supposed to do. Take hits no one in the party dies. Unless the party is incapable of resting and the resources used prohibits the player from finishing the game,then it doesn't matter how much of the party's resources a tank drains.
Clerics empty their spellbooks? So what. You get a full spellbook at a click of a button. A Mage can ensure safe resting with Invisibility 10' radius. So even the danger of resting is a non issue.
A tank should walk out of every encounter with full HP. Every HP lost is a question mark on their ability to tank and for a kensei there are a lot of question marks.
No it doesn't.
Again the only requirement is that the player wins the battle and no party member dies.
I guess we have different definitions of what a tank is.
I certainly know that a tank is not a character that requires babysitting by a healer during or after a battle but instead allows the "healer" to realise it's potential by using it's other abilities to their fullest.
All around that definition isn't accurate as characters die occasionally and it isn't necessarily a reflection on the choice of tank due to the paradigms of the game. In one of my most memorable battles the blade died against Yxon but I still give full credit to my Druid for tanking her in beetle form long enough for the Blackguard and Assassin to finish her off.
Last I checked using a Kensai doesn't prohibit the use of spellcasters.
All a tank needs to do is survive until the rest of the party kills all the enemies. Being able to stand while the rest of the party does nothing letting enemies just beat down on them, survive with full HP, survive with minimal damage? None of that is what a tank needs to do.
If it walks out of every encounter with 1 HP, no party members dead, and all enemies dead. Then it fulfilled its duty as a tank.
If you have spellcasters the Kensai doesn't NEED to tank. The spellcasters can tank better by themselves, whilst the kensai does what it is good at - kill stuff.
The question is if the Kensai can tank not if it can do a better job at it than others.
When it is observed that any character can, technically, tank it is necessary to refine the criteria to actually provide a useful conclusion.
Any refining of the criteria to tank basically excludes the kensei as a candidate as almost any other class is superior and using a kensei as a tank will lead to excessive resource use that must be remedied with cheesy tactics that shouldn't be necessary in a core run.
In the ops party either the ranger, cleric, Mage or summons are better tanks, the kensei should be left to excel at it's primary role of destroying things.
Oh low levels then, that doesn't make their case any better because even a normal Fighter with 18 DEX and 18 CON carrying a shield with 2 pips in Sword and Shield will skirt dangerously close to dying even in Core Rules if it isn't supplemented by spells, a lot of archery, or HP recovery from continuous resting.
Last I checked ridiculous parties still win the game.
No one said a Kensai tank was optimal in any way. But using a Kensai as a tank doesn't equate to instant game over or repeated reloading. This isn't some high level dungeon in an MMORPG where literally only a small set of specific tank builds work.
The question is simple, can a Kensai tank. Not why should the Kensai tank. But hey we can always request a mod to split this topic again if you want to talk about why someone should use a Kensai as atank.
There's no need to split the thread further. It would be good if @Zyzzogeton could give tips to enhance kensai's survivability if someone wants to use this character as a tank. What items should she go for? What advice can you give?
It would be much better if the discussion was productive and didn't consist of "When you want to" phrases.
Pure kensai as a tank is hard one, no mage self buffs : I find barkskin very useful early and scales the whole game if you have a cleric. Starts at 6 and goes to ac4 at the end of bg1. Not sure if it's capped but at max cleric level (40) it is AC -4, better than the best armors. I guess it would be good for parties of 4 (Kensai+cleric+Mage+Mage/thief).
Throw in a defensive harmony and a protection from evil and you should be fine. Potions that give AC0 are good for early/mid game hard encounters.
Is almost any other class better at it than they are? Probably.
I really, really do not get this discussion. I'm all for arguing, and for being daring and experimental - but this just goes beyond my comprehension for twelve dozen reasons.
Last I checked ridiculous parties still win the game.
No one said a Kensai tank was optimal in any way. But using a Kensai as a tank doesn't equate to instant game over or repeated reloading. This isn't some high level dungeon in an MMORPG where literally only a small set of specific tank builds work.
The question is simple, can a Kensai tank. Not why should the Kensai tank. But hey we can always request a mod to split this topic again if you want to talk about why someone should use a Kensai as atank.
Monkeys can write Shakespeare. By your reasoning, the fact that you would need a infinite number of them is irrelevant.
Pure kensai as a tank is hard one, no mage self buffs : I find barkskin very useful early and scales the whole game if you have a cleric. Starts at 6 and goes to ac4 at the end of bg1. Not sure if it's capped but at max cleric level (40) it is AC -4, better than the best armors. I guess it would be good for parties of 4 (Kensai+cleric+Mage+Mage/thief).
Throw in a defensive harmony and a protection from evil and you should be fine. Potions that give AC0 are good for early/mid game hard encounters.
But in order to use those things you must have a druid and a cleric. If you have a druid or a cleric, there is no reason for the kensai to tank, since either the druid or the cleric could do it better.
There's no need to split the thread further. It would be good if @Zyzzogeton could give tips to enhance kensai's survivability if someone wants to use this character as a tank. What items should she go for? What advice can you give?
It would be much better if the discussion was productive and didn't consist of "When you want to" phrases.
The goal of the debate is to win, not achieve enlightenment.
If this discussion were happening in the context of World of Warcraft, it would be pretty clear that "Kensei" is a "DPS spec" for warriors, where other specs like berserker or dwarven defender would be clearly "Tank specs". Not many people would try to argue that it's a good idea to go into a dungeon with a DPS spec, having signed up for it as the tank. If they did, they'd get dog-piled and viciously flamed in that environment, really fast.
Of course, you can counter that with "but Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale aren't World of Warcraft." But I still think the comparison is apt in this case. World of Warcraft has permanently influenced rpg gaming culture and how we think about rpg combat roles, for better or for worse, like it or not.
So, the World of Warcraft player in me looks at a discussion like this and immediately thinks, "Hmm, that's odd, somebody wants to make a tank out of a DPS spec."
in IWD at least you can get signifcant damage resistance on a kensai (ring of greater resistance + 2x defender weapons). teamed up with another frontliner (paladin with lay on hads for example), he can hold the line.
in IWD at least you can get signifcant damage resistance on a kensai (ring of greater resistance + 2x defender weapons). teamed up with another frontliner (paladin with lay on hads for example), he can hold the line.
I feel like at this point we are just being trolled.
Yes, kensei can tank, just like any other character in IWD, BG or wow. However, it's ridiculous and literally any other character is going to be more effective at it.
Sure, you can come up with ideal item combinations to max out AC and physical resistance however: - you detract from the primary purpose of the kensei (DPS) - other characters can make better use of the items - still vulnerable to dispel magic - still vulnerable to critical hits
The end result is always going to be a net loss in efficiency and enjoyment on any quantifiable scale.
So, the Kensai can be a tank, but it won't be as good a tank as some other classes.
Hey, is the War Chant of the Sith in IWD:EE? What about the druid's Water Elemental form? The Great Shield +3? I haven't played IWD:EE, but in the original game, you could get 75% damage resistance with a water elemental, 15% from the Great Shield, and each War Chant of the Sith would tack on 10%. I've gone through HoF mode a couple times with a fighter/druid who was immune to physical damage.
Comments
Clerics empty their spellbooks? So what. You get a full spellbook at a click of a button. A Mage can ensure safe resting with Invisibility 10' radius. So even the danger of resting is a non issue. No it doesn't.
Again the only requirement is that the player wins the battle and no party member dies.
I guess we have different definitions of what a tank is.
I certainly know that a tank is not a character that requires babysitting by a healer during or after a battle but instead allows the "healer" to realise it's potential by using it's other abilities to their fullest.
All around that definition isn't accurate as characters die occasionally and it isn't necessarily a reflection on the choice of tank due to the paradigms of the game. In one of my most memorable battles the blade died against Yxon but I still give full credit to my Druid for tanking her in beetle form long enough for the Blackguard and Assassin to finish her off.
And no, rest abuse a tank also does not make.
All a tank needs to do is survive. A Kensai can do that. Hence it can tank.
Any refining of the criteria to tank basically excludes the kensei as a candidate as almost any other class is superior and using a kensei as a tank will lead to excessive resource use that must be remedied with cheesy tactics that shouldn't be necessary in a core run.
In the ops party either the ranger, cleric, Mage or summons are better tanks, the kensei should be left to excel at it's primary role of destroying things.
You said the Kensai couldn't tank. It can. How good it is compared to other classes has no bearing on it being capable of tanking or not.
When a Kensai has 100 or so HP it's not going to get crippled by a 20HP hit and a weak enemy dealing 10 damage is pretty ridiculous.
Whatever ridiculous RP reason players come up with for making their party that way.
Still not an answer, although you do admit that a kensai tank is "ridiculous".
Can we leave it at that?
No one said a Kensai tank was optimal in any way. But using a Kensai as a tank doesn't equate to instant game over or repeated reloading. This isn't some high level dungeon in an MMORPG where literally only a small set of specific tank builds work.
The question is simple, can a Kensai tank. Not why should the Kensai tank. But hey we can always request a mod to split this topic again if you want to talk about why someone should use a Kensai as atank.
It would be much better if the discussion was productive and didn't consist of "When you want to" phrases.
I find barkskin very useful early and scales the whole game if you have a cleric.
Starts at 6 and goes to ac4 at the end of bg1.
Not sure if it's capped but at max cleric level (40) it is AC -4, better than the best armors.
I guess it would be good for parties of 4 (Kensai+cleric+Mage+Mage/thief).
Throw in a defensive harmony and a protection from evil and you should be fine.
Potions that give AC0 are good for early/mid game hard encounters.
Should they? Probably not.
Is almost any other class better at it than they are? Probably.
I really, really do not get this discussion. I'm all for arguing, and for being daring and experimental - but this just goes beyond my comprehension for twelve dozen reasons.
Of course, you can counter that with "but Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale aren't World of Warcraft." But I still think the comparison is apt in this case. World of Warcraft has permanently influenced rpg gaming culture and how we think about rpg combat roles, for better or for worse, like it or not.
So, the World of Warcraft player in me looks at a discussion like this and immediately thinks, "Hmm, that's odd, somebody wants to make a tank out of a DPS spec."
Yes, kensei can tank, just like any other character in IWD, BG or wow. However, it's ridiculous and literally any other character is going to be more effective at it.
Sure, you can come up with ideal item combinations to max out AC and physical resistance however:
- you detract from the primary purpose of the kensei (DPS)
- other characters can make better use of the items
- still vulnerable to dispel magic
- still vulnerable to critical hits
The end result is always going to be a net loss in efficiency and enjoyment on any quantifiable scale.
Hey, is the War Chant of the Sith in IWD:EE? What about the druid's Water Elemental form? The Great Shield +3? I haven't played IWD:EE, but in the original game, you could get 75% damage resistance with a water elemental, 15% from the Great Shield, and each War Chant of the Sith would tack on 10%. I've gone through HoF mode a couple times with a fighter/druid who was immune to physical damage.