Classes Reborn Mod

wolpak

Due to limitations and compatibility with other mods, I had to shelf my Overhaul mod (though agonizing due to time spent on it). However, I have been planning out a class reborn mod. It is not specifically D&D lore friendly, but I tend to like to tinker with stuff more than actually playing it. Anyway, if anyone is interested, I'd love to get feedback and hash out possibilities. This mod will not be compatible with other class/kit mods, but, considering the scope of it, it wouldn't make sense to.

I have always felt that trueclasses have gotten the short end of the stick. Most people do not play any base class through the game without MC or DC. Why would you when the meta allows you to take a kit and make it much better. Kits have never sat well with me either. You'd think you would need to put in some hours being a paladin before you start smiting undead, or as a thief before you are doing somersaults and backflips as a swashbuckler.

The plan here is to take the 11 base classes (I am using barbarian as a base class instead of a fighter kit) and give a progression to it. Preemptively, I am planning for there to be a class change at level 6 and level 18. I was considering 5 and 15 or 7 and 21 but decided right now on 6 and 18. You can choose one of 2 paths that focus on a specific trait of the class and you will then choose another path to further focus more. This will end with 44 possible end kits (with another 22 mid-kits). In the next few posts I'll outline my ideas and hopefully someone will be interested and provide any feedback.

Monks: Wis Mod (+/-) AC
Fighters: DEX Mod (+/-) AC Missile bonus (Done)
Paladins: Chr Mod (+/-) Magic Resistance
Rangers: Can use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod for To Hit (Done)
Bards: Chr Mod (+/-) Experience points
Barbarians: Con Mod + Str Mod (+/-) Damage resistance (or some other combination)
Thieves: Int Mod (+/-) Off Hand To Hit
Clerics & Druids: Int Mod (+/-) Casting Level
Mages and Sorc: Wis Mod (+/-) Casting Speed

wolpak

These are all just shells and I'll be adding innates and other bonuses that make sense over time.

I'll cover the 4 main fighting classes here:

Fighter->Warrior->Warlord
Fighter->Warrior->Gladiator
Fighter->Sentinel->Defender
Fighter->Sentinel->Guardian

Warrior: Offensive, focus on 2H and DW. Bonus TH and Dam.
Warlord: Focus on 2H, can exchange To Hit for Damage.
Gladiator: Focus on DW, can exchange Damage for To Hit.
Sentinel: Defensive, focus on S&B and 1H, Bonus AC & resist
Defender: Focus on S&B, bonus DR.
Guardian: Focus on 1H, bonus AC.

Paladin->Knight->Cavalier
Paladin->Knight->Protector
Paladin->Crusader->Inquisitor
Paladin->Crusader->Templar

Knight: S&B Focus, bonus LoH, extra spells
Cavalier: Similar to now, bonuses against dragons and demons
Protector: AC Bonus, resistances, other stuff
Crusader: Bonuses to Humanoids, select spells
Inquisitor: Mage Hunters, similar to now but not as OP
Templar: Undead Hunters, similar to now

Ranger->Marksman->Sniper
Ranger->Marksman->Archer
Ranger->Hunter->Stalker
Ranger->Hunter->Beastmaster

Marksman: Bonus To Hit with ranged. Innates similar to aim.
Sniper: Focus on Crossbows and slings. Increased crit chance.
Archer: Focus on Bows. Specialty arrows.
Hunter: Focus on DW. Stealth.
Stalker: Similar to now with backstab. Innates focused on being hidden.
Beastmaster: Animal companion. Bonus summoning spells.

Barbarian->Berserker->Mauler
Barbarian->Berserker->Savage
Barbarian->Shaman->Cannibal
Barbarian->Shaman->Witch Doctor

Berserker: Rage ability. Focus on 2H and DW
Mauler: 2H Focus. Stronger rage, shorter duration.
Savage: DW focus. Weaker rage, longer duration.
Shaman: Totems that provide benefit to nearby friends.
Cannibal: Focus on Offensive totems, wears skulls around neck.
Witch Doctor: Focus on healing and defensive totems.

wolpak

Bard is a little more up in the air.

Bard->Minstrel->Virtuoso
Bard->Minstrel->Skald
Bard->Acrobat->Fencer
Bard->Acrobat->Jester

Minstrel: Stronger bard song, more lore
Virtuoso: Bard song choice
Troubadour: Just wanted to use that word. Better caster
Fencer: More offensive. Better pickpocket
Blade: Similar to current blade. DW focus. OSpin and DSpin
Skald: 1H focus. Lingering song (hopefully)

Cleric->Priest->Vicar
Cleric->Priest->Warpriest
Cleric->Clairvoyant->Necromancer
Cleric->Clairvoyant->Demonologist

Priest: Bonus spells. Focus on healing
Vicar: Even more focus on healing.
War Priest: Offensive path. S&B.
Claivoyant: Basic summoning spells innate
Necromancer: Animate Dead. Gets stronger. Other stuff
Demonologist: Summon demons, use demon powers

Druid->Shapeshifter->Lycanthrope
Druid->Shapeshifter->Rakshasa
Druid->Naturalist->ArchDruid
Druid->Naturalist->Storm Druid

Shapeshifter: Basic shapeshifting abilities.
Lycanthrope: Advanced animal shapeshifting. Bonuses to animals
Rakshasa: Demonis Shapeshifting. Bonuses to humanoids
Naturalist: Bonus spells, resistances
ArchDruid: Strongest Druid spells, extra animal summoning abilities
Storm Druid: Bonus elemental resistances and elemental innate abilities

Mage->Conjurer->Fire Wizard
Mage->Conjurer->Ice Wizard
Mage->Illusionist->Summoner
Mage->Illusionist->Psionic

Conjurer: Innate damage ability
Fire Wizard: Innate fire ability, extra spells
Ice Wizard: Innage Ice ability, extra spells
Illusionist: Innate deception spells
Summoner: Innate summoning capabilities, extra spells
Psionic: Innate mental capabilities, extra spells

wolpak

Thief->Rogue->Pirate
Thief->Rogue->Swashbuckler
Thief->Bounty Hunter->Assassin
Thief->Bounty Hunter->Spy

Rogue: DW/1H focus. Less skill points, but more offensive
Pirate: 1H focus. Higher crits
Swashbuckler: DW focus, bonuses to attack
Bounty Hunter: More skill points, bonus traps
Assassin: Better Backstab, poison
Spy: Ranged focus.

Monk->Samurai->Kensai
Monk->Samurai->Bo Master
Monk->Martial Artist->Ninja
Monk->Martial Artist->Sensei

More than the others, this will take some testing to see what can and can't be done. For the most part the pugilist line focuses on hand to hand while the martial artist line focuses on weapons. We'll see.

Sorcerer->Warlock->Hellfire Warlock
Sorcerer->Warlock->Planar Warlock
Sorcerer->Disciple->Dragon Disciple
Sorcerer->Disciple->Lich Disciple

Warlock: Can use blood to increase Casting level.
Hellfire: Big innate spells that use HP
Planar: Innate spells that summon demons that use HP
Disciple: Reduced spellcasting to increase other abilities
Dragon Disciple: Gradually gains dragonlike abilities
Undead Disciple: Gradually gains lichlike abilities

wolpak

Now that this is all written out, it seems daunting. Hopefully I can do most of what is planned and I'll update this thread with what is being done. The goal isn't to make significantly different kits, but ones that resemble their base kits but have a narrower focus. Also, many of these will have similar abilities as other classes, but like a cleric/sorcerer/mage that summons a demon or whatever, it is the complementary skills that differentiate, like their base class.

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wolpak

I have been trying to reconcile that a bit. I like how you have it laid out, and I think I like fencer better than blade (especially for the double entendre). Glad you took the time to look over it. I wish I was able to reduce the number of "classes" to reduce the overlap, but since I have made the barbarian a mix of attack and buff, it allows for more diversity.

I am also increasing the prof limit to 7, thus, it allows for more variety between end classes without it feeling like a close imitation.

wolpak

Most classes will use important stats to augment skills that they have. I have finished the proficiency system, and now to start fleshing out the kits.

wolpak

I am working on innate bonuses for each class based on a specified stat. This is based off of monks use Wisdom modifier for AC. Here is my list, but I am willing to take any and all criticism.

Monks: Wis Mod (+/-) AC
Fighters: DEX Mod (+/-) AC Missile bonus (Done)
Paladins: Chr Mod (+/-) Magic Resistance
Rangers: Can use Dex Mod instead of Str Mod for To Hit (Done)
Bards: Chr Mod (+/-) Experience points
Barbarians: Con Mod + Str Mod (+/-) Damage resistance (or some other combination)
Thieves: Int Mod (+/-) Off Hand To Hit
Clerics & Druids: Int Mod (+/-) Casting Level
Mages and Sorc: Wis Mod (+/-) Casting Speed

Grammarsalad

I assume that you will be adding these bonuses via scripting(?) Whatever the method,I definitely like some of these ideas.

Save bonuses for non physical stats is an excellent idea.. I also really like some of the class specific stat based bonuses.

Not a fan of the complete class overhaul, though. Nothing specific, just personal preference.

I think the thief would do well with the dex to hit bonus. Actually, I'm interested in exactly how you are going to do that one. The bard bonus to xp as well

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wolpak

@Grammarsalad‌ Don't knock it til you try it. If it is purism that is holding you back, it doesn't HAVE to be D&D to be good. Just sayin

I already have the save stats built out from the old mod and in tact. The only drawback is that I pretty much have to throw the script in Baldur.bcs as it needs to be constantly monitored and I really have no other method.

The monk wisdom and ranger dex instead of strength are already done. Also the charisma bonus for bard, but I had it scripted for humans and half-elves before (I'll change it). Basically, you have to set each player's stat to a global variable which needs to be constantly monitored. Then it is just a matter of checking the stat and applying a bonus.

Here's a snippet:

IF
Race(Player1,HUMAN)
GlobalsGT("CHREXP1","P1CHRMOD")
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ApplySpellRES("CHREXPMI",Player1)
ApplySpellRES("CHREXPMI",Player1)
IncrementGlobal("CHREXP1","GLOBAL",-1)
END

IF
Race(Player1,HUMAN)
GlobalsLT("CHREXP1","P1CHRMOD")
THEN
RESPONSE #100
ApplySpellRES("CHREXPPL",Player1)
ApplySpellRES("CHREXPPL",Player1)
IncrementGlobal("CHREXP1","GLOBAL",1)

Ignore the race logic, and if your P1CHRMOD (set at the beginning of baldur.bcs) is greater than CHREXP1, then apply MI MI (for whatever reason I made it 1 percent in each spell, but I wanted 2 percent per point).

wolpak

@subtledoctor Have some faith in me, no way will there be a similar minimum stat requirement. They will operate much more like 3e stats, and I may make a 10 or 8 baseline, but the rest will be what you want to put and where. And like I said to Grammers, don't knock it til you try it. I realize this is a bazillion year old game and most people still here are diehard D&D enthusiasts who would rather have the current system implemtened even better rather than a new system. And I get that, and maybe nobody tries it out but me. But I feel like the current system is broken and a missed opportunity for something more well rounded.

Either way, as long as you throw me a criticism or thumbs up every now and then, it'll motivate me to finish

Grammarsalad

You are more brave than I @wolpak‌ ! I won't touch Baldur.bcs with a 10' pole!

I have a much simpler plan in mind that, admittedly, is insensitive to stat changes (just a one time summon that checks stats and applies changes).

Still, I approve of this mod. (Edit: You're so relieved right ) Keep it up!

wolpak

@Grammarsalad That is plausible, but the problem if something just checks a snapshot of a stat, it can easily be manipulated by raising the stat when checked and can be wildly inaccurate.

Grammarsalad

wolpak said:

@Grammarsalad That is plausible, but the problem if something just checks a snapshot of a stat, it can easily be manipulated by raising the stat when checked and can be wildly inaccurate.

Yeah...there's that

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wolpak

@subtledoctor‌ It will likely only be available on EE since a) I pretty much just play this on my IOS device (though I do own the originals for the computer) and b) it appears to let me do much more since so much has been made accessible.

However, all you need is two override folders and a clean dialog.tlk and it's an easy install

I am certainly not implying you shouldn't play your own mod which inspired me to start up again. But you will likely have played through all your new kits 5 times each before this is done.

wolpak

For anyone interested, I'll try to keep tabs on what is completed in the first (or subsequent) posts. If you are interested in how it was done, feel free to ask.

wolpak

Just wanted to put an update in. I have been working to cannibalize my old mod (BGO) and take the best parts out of it. I have almost completed reproficiencing everything. I have consolidated and added armor proficiencies as well as a ranged style.

Light Weapon:
Unarmed
Dagger
Short Sword
Quarterstaff/Club

Medium Weapons:
Exotic Sword
Long Sword
Axe
Spear/Halberd

Heavy Weapons:
Mace/War Hammer
Flail/MorningStar
Massive Sword (Bastard & Two-Handed)

Armor:
Unarmored
Light Armor
Medium Armor
Heavy Armor

Ranged Weapons:
Crossbow (Heavy)
Bow (Long and Short) (Medium)
Darts/Slings (Light)

Weapon Styles:
Ranged Style
Two-Handed Style
Shield Style
Duelist Style
Dual Wield Style

Proficiencies have been expanded to 7 per type. Thus, if you want to fully master a weapon, an armor and a style, you will need 21 points. If Dual Wielding 2 different weapons, you will need 28 points. Thus, more points will be given out per level. Obviously certain subclasses will be able to get more points in certain proficiencies.

Also, DW will be affected by weapon type.
Light Weapon -1 (per weapon)
Medium Weapon -2 (per weapon)
Heavy Weapon -3 (per weapon)

Obviously this will also be managed with the Dual Wield style and expanded proficiency points. Certain classes use certain weapon types. Paladins use only Medium and Heavy while Rangers use only Light and Medium. Races will also have proficiency with weapon types as well.

wolpak

I also avoided using a flag that has been used by detectable spells (which made me stop work on my other mod). I had to use a flag for a weapon already in use (ended up being Bastard Sword). So, while this won't be compatible with other class and kit mods, it will be compatible with SCS and other mods that do not touch what I am touching.

bob_veng

why did you merge quarterstaff with club? those two are nothing alike and why should clubs be 2-handed?

wolpak

They both bash! Clubs are heavy. Have a better suggestion? Put clubs with maces? I want to keep it as a light weapon. It's not as far as you think.

bob_veng

how can they be light if the're 2-handed

i can't imagine a *light* 2-handed club.

a better suggestion is keeping it separate or, yeah, together with mace.

mace wasn't a heavy weapon, it was pretty handy.

also, the bastard sword as described in the game (a large longsword, appopriate for use with two hands; have in mind that irl ordinary longsword are also appropriate for use with two hands, so these "bastard swords" are pretty close to twohanders) is a very heavy weapon if we consider that it's one-handed in the game. by far the heaviest of all.

wolpak

@bob_veng‌

They are ligjt if you are using 2 hands So, you think move bastards to Two-Hand Swords and lump clubs with maces and warhammers?

Just want to know what your take is and how it balances out with the rest of the design.

bob_veng

^yeah, that sounds pretty good

wolpak

I have built out the proficiency charts. I'd love to get any feedback, even if you don't care about the mod, but just so I can feel it is somewhat balanced.

First off, different from my other mod where I specified damage resistance on each armor, I have decided a nicer and better implementation is to have proficiencies apply similar type effects. I wish I could also include a miscast magic reduction, but short of ridiculous scripting, it cannot be done since miscast magic is an unsigned int and there is no subtracting from it.

Here is the base weapon prof chart:



Unarmored:


Light Armor:


Medium Armor:


Heavy Armor:


I basically did a valuation system on AC, DR and MR. I factored AC*5+DR+MR and they all came out within a point of another. Any ideas or alterations would be appreciated.

Grammarsalad

Cool.

What is "BS MOD?"

bob_veng

regarding armor, i would do the following:

*general*
- add more negative AC
- remove negative DR (doesn't make sense - can't visualize it)
- remove MR altogether, except for unarmored (can't explain how armor-related skills affect your MR)
- remove positive stealth modifier, and replace it with bad starting values (makes more sense - you're clumsy until you reach a relatively high proficiency)

*unarmored*
- tweak AC progression (0, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6) so that the first pip actually means something positive, you've learned some dodging, hey

*for light armor*
- add a negative stealth modifier (-30, -20, -15, -10, -5, 0, 0, 0) ... gotta make those thieving points mean something
- improve AC progression (-2, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4) ... same pattern as unarmored, just -2
- remove damage resistance from light armor altogether

*for medium armor*
- add a serious stealth penalty (-60, -55, -45, -40, -35, -30, -25, -20)
- tweak AC progression (-3, -1, -1, -0, -0, 1, 1, 2)
- have a starting DR value that slowly increases in a staggered way (15, 15, 15, 20, 20, 25, 25, 30) --- this converts to base 15% item DR and +0/0/0/5/5/10/10/15 for prof levels

*for heavy armor*
- forbid sneaking
- give it terrible starting ac that gradually improves (-5, -3, -3, -2, -2, -1, -1, 0)
- have epic starting DR (35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45, 50) --- effectively means 35% on item and same on-character bonuses as for medium armor

overview:
- unarmored prof means practicing evasion and physiologic magic resistance (MR granting prof levels are only available to classes for which armor is prohibited)
- light armor prof means practicing evasion and moving silently in light armor
- heavy armor prof means developing proper defensive footwork in an otherwise cumbersome suit so that you won't be a sitting duck and, later on, learning to only expose the best protected parts of your body to attacks
- medium armor strikes a middle ground between light and heavy

wolpak

@Grammarsalad‌ Sorry just noticed. It is backstab multiplier.

wolpak

@bob_veng‌ thanks for your input, and I'll comment more tomorrow. Chilling on the couch with my wife and I can't really analyze your post as much as I want on my iPhone. Just appreciating the feedback.