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Classes Reborn Mod

24

Comments

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    edited January 2015
    bob_veng said:

    regarding armor, i would do the following:

    *general*
    - add more negative AC
    - remove negative DR (doesn't make sense - can't visualize it)
    - remove MR altogether, except for unarmored (can't explain how armor-related skills affect your MR)
    - remove positive stealth modifier, and replace it with bad starting values (makes more sense - you're clumsy until you reach a relatively high proficiency)

    --------------------
    1. I agree more negative AC would be good. I was going to adjust the base AC of armors.
    2. Well, assuming you are mastering defensive capabilities, but I can appreciate MR only for unarmored as in physical and mental training instead of armor training
    3. While I agree in concept, it probably won't work well in gameplay as I'll discuss further down.
    --------------------

    *unarmored*
    - tweak AC progression (0, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6) so that the first pip actually means something positive, you've learned some dodging, hey

    ---------------
    The first pip in everything is removing the baseline. Most of the time, "0 proficiency" means you are incapable of managing your current state. If I am unarmored, I may move into weapons more thus, causing more damage. The first pip means, ok, you have learned to not be a complete idiot, but you aren't skilled enough to make use of this skill yet.
    ---------------

    *for light armor*
    - add a negative stealth modifier (-30, -20, -15, -10, -5, 0, 0, 0) ... gotta make those thieving points mean something
    - improve AC progression (-2, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4) ... same pattern as unarmored, just -2
    - remove damage resistance from light armor altogether

    ---------------
    1. I like it in concept, but a starting thief usually wears leather armor and doesn't have many skill points. This makes them go either unarmored to start or have almost no stealth capabilities. I am planning on reducing overall thieving points, but even with 1 pip at the beginning, a starting thief is will have very little stealth.
    2. Almost the same that it is now, but one less point at 0 and 1 more point at 7. I'll evaluate.
    3. Light Armor should have some damage resistance. Why even bother with it if you can get to 6 AC unarmored AND Magic Resistance. Maybe make it more staggered like, 0 DR to Piercing and Missiles, 2 for Slashing and 3 for Crushing each level.
    ---------------

    *for medium armor*
    - add a serious stealth penalty (-60, -55, -45, -40, -35, -30, -25, -20)
    - tweak AC progression (-3, -1, -1, -0, -0, 1, 1, 2)
    - have a starting DR value that slowly increases in a staggered way (15, 15, 15, 20, 20, 25, 25, 30) --- this converts to base 15% item DR and +0/0/0/5/5/10/10/15 for prof levels

    *for heavy armor*
    - forbid sneaking
    - give it terrible starting ac that gradually improves (-5, -3, -3, -2, -2, -1, -1, 0)
    - have epic starting DR (35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45, 50) --- effectively means 35% on item and same on-character bonuses as for medium armor

    1. I'll just make it MUCH more detrimental, like, 100%-80%. I just don't want to remove any capability from any items. Everyone can use every weapon and armor and use every ability as well, but with major side effects.
    2. I'll look into doing something like that.
    3. Gotcha.


    overview:
    - unarmored prof means practicing evasion and physiologic magic resistance (MR granting prof levels are only available to classes for which armor is prohibited)
    - light armor prof means practicing evasion and moving silently in light armor
    - heavy armor prof means developing proper defensive footwork in an otherwise cumbersome suit so that you won't be a sitting duck and, later on, learning to only expose the best protected parts of your body to attacks
    - medium armor strikes a middle ground between light and heavy

    -------------------
    1. I like it and I agree. Armor will not be prohibited to anyone, but you either may not be able to put pips in it and/or it will have major drawbacks, like 75% casting failure.
    2. It needs more than that to separate itself from unarmored. DR is a must, but maybe elemental resistances (as leather armor may protect you from elements unlike ring or platemail.
    3 + 4. Same page

    Thanks for your feed back. Half the fun of building this stuff out is...building this stuff out.
    -------------------

    Also, on a aesthetic note, here are the new proficiency titles, unless someone can come up with something better.

    Unskilled 0
    Novice 1
    Competent 2
    Specialized 3
    Expert 4
    Master 5
    High Master 6
    Grand Master 7

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Ok, I crunched the numbers, threw them into the equalizer machine, adjusted some knobs and doohickeys and this is what I got and I think it is pretty balanced.

    First off, I want each class of armor to result in better protection. There needs to be a reason for a Fighter to wear Plate Mail if he can get equivalent protection from learning unarmored. All I factored in was defensive bonuses (sneak, cast speed and BS multipliers not valued).

    So, based on a simplistic premise of 1AC = 5 DR (which I figured you roll a 20 sided die, 1/20 =5) and 1 DR = 1 MR = 1 ELR (elemental resistance). I know, they aren't all equivalent, but I am redesigning, not building.

    So, the below chart shows the changes, and there is a total at the bottom that shows the final value at 7 points. Each armor type is 6 value points greater than the previous at full value. I think that strikes a nice and steady balance.

    image

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,961
    edited January 2015
    that looks g-reat :smiley:

    except for one thing (seriously just one) - DR 60 feels like a wee bit too much
    will creatures such as tougher magical monsters, dragons and golems also have good DR? will heavily armored humanoid enemies also have such high DR? if so it's okay
    wolpak said:


    Unskilled 0
    Novice 1
    Competent 2
    Specialized 3
    Expert 4
    Master 5
    High Master 6
    Grand Master 7

    pretty sweet

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Ayayie Bob!

    These proficiencies are solely for players (as of now). I have updated all monster proficiencies to correspond to the new system (ie, point to their new proficiency that governs there new weapon) but I have no scripted them to use the new armor proficiencies (nor may it be really feasible).

    However, I may just Weidu it so that all monsters get a staircase DR bonus based on their THAC0 or something of that nature. But that is way down the line after I get this implemented properly. I have pretty much got the unarmored working, and working on the light and making the scripts behave nicely for switching armors and such.

    Also, don't forget that the 60% DR is on armor that you get hit on much more as it's AC will be lowered. I think I may revert back to the old mod's name change where

    AC was Armor Class but now becomes Avoidance Class.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,961
    edited January 2015
    "avoidance class", yeah that sounds about right.

    if by chance you could get enemies to use armor proficiencies that would be awesome. imagine how much better the drow would become (their warriors are just too squishy)...or those lame human armies in tob. also, with über unarmored AC, rogue an monk enemies would become more interesting too.

    Post edited by bob_veng on
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    All of that can be done, just not by scripting (or much easier without scripting). Scripting allows me to be dynamic with party members that change often and have a variety of different possibilities and combinations (stats, class, profs...). The easier way is to just manually give them set bonuses. I'll definately do that before I am done.

    One thing that is bothering me and it looks like I have to change is the precedence of Permanent vs While Worn. I have made one prof into Armor Type which is the flag for the armor you are wearing. Since profs do not show up in the record screen unless they have 1 point, I wanted to manually set it to 1, and then have light armor set it to 2, medium to 3 and heavy to 4. Since they use the flag while worn, the permanent prof I set initially never gets overwritten. Thus, unarmored must stay at 0, and not show on the record screen. This might not make sense, and is very minor, but annoying and making me rescript a lot of stuff.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 8,787
    Hey, just FYI making 1-handed weapons into 2-handed weapons can be problematic because, if the game or a mod doesn't know about your change (and how could they?) and adds an NPC with that weapon and a shield, it will crash when the NPC spawns.

    I did this with morning stars a long time ago to differentiate them from maces and flails, and it took me forever to figure out what was going wrong...

    (Of course you can try to weed out every CRE that has both morning star and shield, and change it... but then you must depend on being at/near the very bottom of the load order to make sure you catch them all.)

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Thanks for the heads up. I am going to just leave them as 1 handed.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Got the infrastructure in place for armor proficiencies. It's amazing how much a small change can exponentially change how many scripts you may need and how small changes have shockwave effects. Biggest obstacle was scripting not just the change from armor types, but rerunning scripts when you add a proficiency point in an armor you are wearing.

    @subtledoctor‌ Just want to say thanks. the summon creature/run script in a script trick really makes this easy. It also caused some other obstacles, but a plus 10 - 1 is still 9 higher than 0.

    Grammarsalad
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    So, in my attempt to find a way to make miscast magic work properly, I found another way to toggle for each player without using a proficiency. It requires sacrificing weapon slots (the first being only for warriors).

    Since I can make that invisible, I can set "weapons" in there that do nothing, but I can check for in scripts. This will allows me to remove armor type from proficiencies (which was nothing but a place holder for the type of armor you are wearing.

    I will be replacing it with Metaphysical. This will be a style dedicated mostly to casters. I haven't worked out everything, but it will look something like this.

    0 -5MR
    1 No bonuses
    2 +5 MR
    3 Immunity to level 1 spells
    4 +1 Casting Speed +5 MR
    5 Immunity to level 2 spells
    6 +1 Casting Speed+5 MR
    7 Immunity to level 3 spells +5 MR

    Any and all suggestions are welcome. I am trying to add in some variety for casters, but not eat at my plan for a warlock which will involve him augmenting his skills by adding casting levels.

    Figure Fighter Types will max out at 3 points, rogues and priests at 5 and mages and sorcerers at 7.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,064
    You could use 4th ammo slot instead of sacrificing a weapon slot.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Actually, that would make weapon type function so that I can give ranged bonuses more than THAC0 and DAMAGE.

    Do people really fill up all weapon spots?

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Ok, so after some number massaging and idea coming upping, here is the new plan for proficiencies.

    I have 4 distinct areas for proficiencies, Weapons, Armor, Esoteric Style, Weapon Style. Weapons make up the largest group, but that is to be expected. Each Proficiency can have 5 Pips put into it.

    Weapon Proficiencies:

    Light Weapons (-1 Base Off Hand THAC0)
    Unarmed
    Small Blade (Daggers, Ninjatos, Wakisashi and Short Swords)
    Quarterstaff

    Medium Weapons (-2 Base Off Hand THAC0)
    Large Sword (Long Swords, Scimitars and Katanas)
    Axe
    Polearm (Halberd/Spear)

    Heavy Weapons (-3 Base Off Hand THAC0)
    Blunt
    Spiked
    Massive Blade (Bastard and Two Handed Swords)

    DW Chart
    Light/Light -2 Off Hand THAC0
    Light Medium -3 Off Hand THAC0
    Light/Heavy Off -4 Hand THAC0
    Medium/Heavy -5 Off Hand THAC0
    Heavy/Heavy -6 Off Hand THAC0

    Armor Proficiencies:
    Unarmored
    Light Armor
    Medium Armor
    Heavy Armor

    Esoteric Proficiencies:
    Physical
    Metaphysical
    Spiratual

    Weapon Styles:
    Ranged
    Two Handed
    Shield
    Duelsit
    Duel Wield

    Standard Weapon Chart:

    image

    Updated Armor Chart:

    image

    Esoteric Chart:

    image

    Physical
    Gives 1 additional HP per PIP, an increase in all skills by 2 points (obviously only helps if you have that skill), 3 DR per point and 4 ER per point. This will be a proficiency primarily for Fighter and Rogue Types.

    Metaphysical
    Each point increases arcane spell duration by 10%, you gain protection from low level spells at higher points, Cast Speed is lowered and Lore is increased. Obviously meant for arcane casters (Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers, but benefits can be for any class)

    Spiritual
    Each point increases Divine Spell Duration by 10%, Luck increases, 3% magic resistance per point, and eventual protection to Poison, Charm and Level Drain. Obviously for Priests and Druids, but beneficial to most classes.

    Each class will start out with 4 proficiency points, to become a novice in each field (or however you want).
    Fighter types will get a new proficiency point every level
    Clerics, Druids, Monks and Rouges get it every other level
    Sorcerers and Mages every 3 levels (though this may be changed to every other level)

    The benefit of Esoteric skills is that I am not limiting them to certain circumstances like the other proficiencies. They are active passive skills at all times. I decided to reduce to proficiency limit to 5 from 7 for a) it is more aesthetically pleasing when putting points into a skill and b) now with more proficiencies to choose, they will be more spread out.

    Let me know what you think.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,089
    For physical, is that a one time bonus to hp, or per level? Here's hoping its per level. Which skills get a bonus? I'm assuming not skills like detect illusion.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    So, you think it should be a bonus of 5 per experience level? Thus, lets say this is maxxed at 20, they'd have at least 100 more HP (obviously more for lower ranks) at level 40. Way too much. But I think I may double the bonus.

    Grammarsalad
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,961
    i don't like how you constructed the "esoteric" class of proficiencies. they are innate proficiencies which is what attributes essentially mean. could you merge these bonuses with attribute scores or tie them in with attributes?

    maybe you could actually call them "innate proficiencies" instead of esoteric (they don't seem that esoteric anyway, especially the physical one)

    i sense a sort of a body-mind-soul trichotomy which smells too much of primary attributes. in some frp systems it actually serves as a set of those. d&d abilities themselves are also based on this idea with each branching into two (dexterity being somewhere in between body and mind).

    maybe you'd like to rename the proficiencies like this: fortitude/mind/will?

    - according to the terminological similarity to 3e saves you could also make them affect saves to make a tie-in to 3e rules
    - you could make them affect actual ability scores. for example, starting stats could be seen as your natural potential, but you don't have access to full scores until you unlock them via proficiencies (makes sense from a rl perspective too)
    so for example, no fortitude proficiency would give you -2 CON/STR, and 5 pips gives +1
    with


    *another idea*

    you could reconfigure the system to fortitude/reflex/will and ditch the unarmored proficiency by redistributing bonuses thusly:
    - fortitude affects DR (increases exponentially and only armor-prohibited classes have access to higher levels to prevent over-cumulation)
    - reflex affects AC (same as above) and stealth
    - will affects MR and stays the same as spiritual

    ^all this in addition to your already planned bonuses and perhaps saving throw bonuses


    *misc*

    - if you go with "fortitude" you could add a fear immunity at lvl5
    - poison immunity shouldn't be granted like that, that's too powerful and should prolly remain restricted to some classes like it is

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Good food for thought. These abilities were mostly abilities that you cannot get otherwise. I do like the idea that they could be based off of your stats, maybe physical is a combo of strength and dex, meta Che and int and sprit con and wis.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    @bob_veng‌ I did some deep thinking and a lot of tossing and turning. I feel like I am on a reality TV show, I throw out some ideas and you are redirecting me. Anyway, I like the idea of combining proficiency level in these skills and attribute levels. In fact, with the 3e style scores, it works nicely together (well, effectively together).

    So, right now I have Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom directly affecting saves. Not great, but manageable. Even though I don't mention Esoteric in the mod itself, I do like renaming them to go along with their 3e brethren, despite saving throws being different.

    Each proficiency below will be governed by two attributes. If you put 1 point into the proficiency, you must have an average of 1 modifier bonus in those stats (IE, 2). Each modifier point, as in 3e is accumulated by 2 stat points. These will also be managed by class kit, where first kit maxes at 3 PIP, 2nd kit at 4 and 3rd kit at 5. Thus, to get the benefit of 5 pips, you will need 10 total points, or a combination of the following:

    Stat 1: 24 Stat 2: 16
    Stat 1: 22 Stat 2: 18
    Stat 1: 20 Stat 2: 20

    1 PIP = 2 Modifier points
    2 PIP = 4 MP
    3 PIP = 6 MP
    4 PIP =8 MP
    5 PIP = 10 MP

    So, here are the updated charts:

    image

    Not perfect, but I feel good enough and will add variety.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,961
    as you say can't be perfect but you distributed the save types in the best possible way i think. and the prof-att dependency that you envisioned is magnificent.

    as for arcane duration, maybe you could combine it with divine into 'spell duration' and have reflex improve all skills? (there's still the spell save bonus which is probably the best perk of all these so it'll remain worth investing in)
    ^since only characters who can cast both types of spells will be affected by the change i don't think it will make much of a difference. also, there will be a build choice of going for casting speed bonus or duration bonus which seems nice.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Bob, I am going to have to give you editing credit on my mod.

    I didn't realize I overwrote my distribution.
    Fortitude (Strength/Constitution)
    Reflex (Dexterity/Intelligence)
    Willpower (Wisdom/Charisma)

    I thought about it, and one reason I kept them separate is because Reflex is a combination of DEX and INT, two things mages will have while WIS/CHR is more geared towards clerics. Moving duration over then makes it tough for Mages to get that bonus. Though, I like the idea that Willpower does affect duration/buffs while reflex is increasing casting speed. Let me see...

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    How about this distribution?

    image

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,961
    that's it imo, looks very sensible. many mages also strive for wisdom :smile:
    wolpak said:

    Bob, I am going to have to give you editing credit on my mod.

    tx, i appreciate it.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Onto another topic.

    Creatures and my proficiency system. Creatures cannot take advantage of the system as it is scripted. That's not a major issue as all creatures are static and players are dynamic, which means change, which is why it has to be scripted. So, I'd like to implement a faux system for creatures, something easy and basic, but represents changes I made to players.

    How does this sound?

    a) For every THAC0 less than 20, 2% damage resistance, 1% magic resistance.
    IE, a creature with a THAC0 of 10 has a base 20DR and 10MR.

    b) For every THAC0 less than 20, 2% damage resistance. For every THACO less than 10, 2% magic resistance, starting at 2 at THAC0 10.
    This would leave MR to the higher based creatures, but leaves the damage the same.

    c) Another option...

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Here is my updated weapon damage ranges. Since I have reclassified most weapons into small groups and they have a light, medium and heavy category, I wanted to differentiate more between them.

    image

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,089
    I think i'm going to play this at some point for a change of pace

    wolpak
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Btw, I almost crapped myself when I leveled up my fighter and the game told me I had an item in an illegal weapon slot and removed it. Thank god it doesn't check for ammo slot3. Of course this will end up limiting ranged style to just +hit and dam, but better than blowing up the whole mod.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    I tackled the check for two stats added together AND watch another stat test. Very happy.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    edited January 2015
    Looking for insight on Bows.

    Looking to differential short, long and composite long.

    Right now, I am thinking basically.
    Short - normal 2X attack
    Long - 1.5 attack +1 TH +2 dam
    Composite - 1.5 attack, +1 crit

    Post edited by wolpak on
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    edited January 2015
    All proficiencies are almost done...whew. Weapons and armors updated. Working on shields now.

    I also decided I wasn't going to let the engine beat me. So, I have made all 4 weapon slots available to everybody, but the final spot is occupied by a boo-like unmovable item (it is boo-like because I copied boo). What will happen is that slot will get filled with an item representing the style you are currently using either by equipping effect or script).

    This will allow me to give classes certain abilities depending on the style they are using. It saddens me there is no opcode based on weapon type (or an ability to script it). The method I am using is only good for types, as Dual Wielders would overwrite one weapon type with another. So, if I want to give the cleave ability if you have a two handed weapon equipped, I will be able to.

    This all pertains to shields as there are 4 different types of shield with really, very little differentiation between them. My plan is to make the built in Sword and Shield style bonus almost useless, but run a script that checks proficiency points and allocate abilities based on it. It will be similar to the current setup, but with a few additions.

    Shield Style:
    0: -1 Cast Speed -1 Crit
    1: +1 Case Speed +1 Crit Standard Shield bonuses
    2: +1 AC +1 AC Missile (max bonus while using buckler)
    3: +1 AC +1 THAC0 (max bonus while using small shield)
    4: +1 AC +1 AC Missile +1 Cast Speed (max bonus while using medium shield)
    5: +1 AC +1 THAC0 +1 Crit (max bonus while using large shield)

    Shield Types:
    Buckler: +1 AC -1 MISS -1 PIERCE -1 THAC0
    Small Shield: +1 AC -1 MISS -1 THAC0 -1 Cast Speed
    Medium Shield: +1 AC -2 THAC0 -1 Cast Speed
    Large Shield: +1 AC +1 MISS -2 THAC0 -2 Cast Speed

    Always ears for adjustments.

    I am also going to be doing something similar for bows.

    Range Style:
    0: All
    1: All
    2: All
    3: Max Shortbow, Light Crossbow And Darts
    4: Max Heavy Crossbow and Slings
    5: Max Longbows

    Post edited by wolpak on
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Maybe I am just talking to myself, but hopefully somebody gives me some input here.

    I am adding DR to creatures, and while I have removed multi-classing from PCs, creatures still have it. So, I have done a quick method of using levels to determine resistances.

    DR = level1 *2 + level2 + level 3

    DR is applied only to creatures with level1 > 1. So, if you are a MC 9/8, you'd have 27% DR. Of course, at higher levels this will be significantly powerful, so I am trying to figure out how to make this work.

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