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Classes Reborn Mod

13

Comments

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,157
    can you cap it?

    are you afraid that battles will become really slow since the game will swim in damage resistance? maybe you should increase the overall damage output in some way too. maybe higher base weapon damage. that will make early levels more difficult but they're not very difficult now so it's probably ok.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Not sure what I am afraid of other than unbalancing it. The method i was using wasn't working because there are some strange numbers for second and third class...or ankhegs are level 3 in their first class and level 30 in their second. So I basically ignored any second or third classes that were higher than their first class. I'll see how that plays out.

    Working out the base classes and whatnot now.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,250
    wolpak said:

    Maybe I am just talking to myself, but hopefully somebody gives me some input here.

    I am adding DR to creatures, and while I have removed multi-classing from PCs, creatures still have it. So, I have done a quick method of using levels to determine resistances.

    DR = level1 *2 + level2 + level 3

    DR is applied only to creatures with level1 > 1. So, if you are a MC 9/8, you'd have 27% DR. Of course, at higher levels this will be significantly powerful, so I am trying to figure out how to make this work.

    Just so I understand, DR= damage resistance= resistance to pierce/slash/blunt/missile/blunt missile?

    I think there should be a 'cap' beyond which a creature should not have resistance. Seems like it could get out of hand rather quickly...it is hard to judge, however, as there seem to be so many additional variables to consider...

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Yeah that is dr. Basically a level 40 enemy would have 60% damage resistance. I have been working on bg1, so I haven't checked what may be highest level monster you face. I do like the idea of boosting weapon damage. It will also help differentiate them.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,157
    you could just take a higher dice for every weapon in your table...
    1d2 > 1d4
    1d3 > 1d6
    1d4 > 2d3
    1d6 > 1d8
    1d7 > 2d4
    1d8 > 1d10
    1d10 > 1d12
    1d12 > 2d6 (doesn't change much to prevent abuse of damage roll maxing abilities by the player; if it was 2d8 it would be way too much too early)

    and where there are static components (like +1) you can increase it by 1

    so for example a katana might do 2d4+2

    but this method doesn't go much in the way of differentiation, more like the opposite

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,081
    Enemies get levels as far as 34 or 20/20 and even 21/32 in ToB, but I haven't seen higher in vanilla (I haven't check the Black Pits 2).

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    I have rebalanced the weapons as I posted in a previous post, but I'll look to see what I can do more. I'll have to find out a way to manage legit 2nd levels that are greater than 1st levels.

    CrevsDaak
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    edited January 2015
    Back to base class differentiation. Here is a basic outline. What I want to do initially is have something that sticks with their motif and makes sense as a skill that would be useful throughout all class changes.

    Fighter: Assault- +2 Damage on NEXT HIT, usable CON Modifier times a day (DONE)
    Paladin: Command- Charisma Modifier times a day, they can add +1 THAC0 and +1 AC to allies in 10 foot radius. (DONE)
    Ranger: Track- Can track enemies once per 30 seconds - (Wis Modifier * 20%) Also boosts Hide and Move Silently by 10 for 1 round. (DONE)
    Barbarian: Sidestep- Adds Dex multiplier to AC vs Missiles
    Thief: Concentrate- Once a day a thief can add (Int Modifier * 5) to a skill for 3 rounds (DONE)
    Bard: Allure- Can cast the charm spell innately with a saving Throw Bonus of 2-CHR modifier (DONE)
    Cleric: Mend - Can heal a base amount Wis modifier times a day innately
    Druid: Beckon- Summons Int Modifier animals to join the fray
    Mage: Pocket Rocket- Mage summons DEX Modifier missiles (like Mel'f Minute Meteor) that does 1d4 damage, usable every 60 seconds (DONE)
    Sorcerer: Drain- Every 60 seconds - CHR modifier * 4 (or 5) a sorcerer can a set amount of life depending on level
    Monk: Can add wis modifier to AC as long as they are unarmored

    Hopefully someone will be like, wtf, that sucks or this is better...as I'd like some interesting possibilities. As a side note, the sorcerer's role is going to change to a nuker that doesn't learn spells, and gets them innately. The warlock side will be able to augment spells with HP, hence the drain aspect for self healing. I may want to move that skill to the warlock level, so, that means finding something that works on the sorcerer level.

    I have a bunch of other ideas that will be implemented on class change 1 idea, like allowing multiple Lay On Hands a day and using Dex instead of Str for To Hit...

    Post edited by wolpak on
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Rebalancing items according to the new stat distribution like 3e.

    Base AC# = 9-6 +1, 8-4 +2, 3 and less + 3
    Stats boost to 18 = +2, over 18 = +4
    Stats detriment 9-6 = -2, 5 and less = -4

    Nothing will give a base AC anymore. You can stack multiple AC bonus items.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Posting things that are complete in my post 2 up.

    Have finished the Fighter, Thief and Mage base skills.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,250
    I like selectable "cantrips" for spell casters ala 5e. (For base class abilities).

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,250
    edited January 2015
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,250
    Heh sorry..pushed the wrong button. Look here:
    http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules?x=dnd/basicrules

    You will find cantrips in the players pdf

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    So, basically, have an innate cantrip ability that you can select on of the many options? It's feasible, assuming I balance it properly as some of those cantrips are strong for free spells.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,250
    edited January 2015
    wolpak said:

    So, basically, have an innate cantrip ability that you can select on of the many options? It's feasible, assuming I balance it properly as some of those cantrips are strong for free spells.

    They are strong. But they seem to make a low level mage more viable....kind of a "glass cannon"type. Also, cantrips could be a new home for some of the weaker spells like infravision.

    Edit: autocorrect

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    A while ago, Pecca sanctioned usage of his spontaneous casting for use in my old mod. I sent him a message about this mod, but I assume it was part of the licensing agreement. Thus, clerics and druids get a form of spontaneous casting. It will work very much like how Pecca's works with a few minor adjustments.

    First, Clerics and Druids will set a set number of spontaneous castings per day based on their Intelligence modifiers. So, an INT of 17 results in 3 castings/day. Thus, you may still want to memorize some healing spells.

    Also, to make clerics more into healers and less into fighters that hopefully can heal, their cast time on these casts will be 1 second. No change (yet) to other heals) but these will be quick one offs at the expense of another spell (or even a heal spell). Evil and Neutral clerics will both get heal as well, because, even though you are evil, you still want your evil buddies to survive so they can be evil longer as well.

    One minor adjustment (which is taking the longest to achieve) is that I am tagging the spells with a gold dot in the corner once you have initiated spontaneous casting. This will make it much easier to determine what spell you are substituting on the fly (and possible on ios devices since you cannot hold your finger down to see the description of spells).

    Grammarsalad
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    edited January 2015
    I am working out the framework for branching upgrades for base abilities.

    Example:
    Fighter gets Wallop which gives +2 damage on NEXT attack ONLY.

    At level 7, fighter chooses a career path, Warrior or Sentinel. If Warrior is chosen, ability gains +2 TH. If Sentinel is chosen, ability instead gains a chance to stun.

    At level 19, Warrior can choose to become a Champion, where ability doubles the number of attacks for next attack. Warrior can choose to become Gladiator, where ability gains a 50% crit chance.

    At 19 a Sentinel can choose to become a Defender, where ability's stun chance doubles or he can choose to become a Guardian where the ability's strike raises his AC for 3 rounds.

    Some abilities will maintain previous bonuses and some will overwrite.

    A cleric will upgrade either to a Priest or a Clairvoyant. Priests will get twice as many spontaneous heals as Clerics did where Clairvoyants will now cast harm instead.

    Each upgrade will also get it's own ability as well, that obviously fits a role for the class upgrade.


    Post edited by wolpak on
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    edited January 2015
    I am working out the details and trying to figure out what is and isn't feasible. Here is a sample for the Fighter Class:

    image

    RED is ACTIVATABLE skill Blue is a PASSIVE skill.

  • NukefaceNukeface Member Posts: 91
    On the issue of bows -

    Shortbows: +2 APR, +1 AC, No Stealth Penalty (~9 STR)

    Reasoning: Shorter size means lesser draw weight which allows for greater maneuverability and faster knock/draw techniques - the arrows are of lesser weight to compensate for the reduced draw weight and typically have reduce penetration against heavier armor at range. A proper recurve bow is ideal for stealth as it is lightweight and does not hinder movement when carried.

    Longbow: +1 APR, +2 Thac0, +1 DAM, -5% to Stealth skills (~14 STR)

    Reasoning: A longbow is of much greater length and draw weight, typically 80-100 lbs draw weight for a medieval longbow used in war, and due to the higher weight of the arrows and longer breadth of draw typically does not fire as quickly. The penetration of the arrows is greatly increased against armor, however. While not heavy, a longbow is typically more awkward to move quickly with when compared to a shortbow and can act as an impediment when attempting to sneak.

    Composite Longbow: +1 APR, +3 Thac0, +3 DAM, +1 Crit, -10% to Stealth, -2 AC (~17 STR)

    Reasoning: A composite longbow is a longbow made from a composite of materials - the draw length is about the same but the draw weight is much higher (~150 lbs) for a bow used in war. The arrows are of a greater gauge, are much heavier, and penetrate much deeper. The quality of the tip is also typically denser with a cylindrical shape (called a bodkin) to penetrate plate armor. The Composite Longbow is typically heavier than other bows - this provides exceptional range and penetration; the composite longbow can be encumbering to someone trying to sneak, however, and the strength required to fire one can be distracting in combat.

    I would be interested in penalties to Thac0 for bows based on armor type as well with light armor and unarmored being equal. Crossbows are ideal for heavy and medium armor in terms of the mechanics involved in aiming and shooting.

    I'm a little finnicky when it comes to bows, though - pay me no mind!

  • NukefaceNukeface Member Posts: 91
    Oh, and as an afterthought, a DR% reduction when an arrow from the Composite strikes - they're about as good as it gets in terms of sheer stopping power.

    Crossbows are much more penetrating but take a long time to fire (I'd do an effect to set the attack to 1 per round, 2 at Grand Mastery) and just put the Light Crossbow somewhere between the Longbow and Composite and then make the Heavy have double the strength of a Composite and 18 STR for use. The draw weight on those things is why they eventually installed a crank.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    @‌nukeface You must be a fletcher or something.

    ------------------------------
    Shortbows: +2 APR, +1 AC, No Stealth Penalty (~9 STR)

    Reasoning: Shorter size means lesser draw weight which allows for greater maneuverability and faster knock/draw techniques - the arrows are of lesser weight to compensate for the reduced draw weight and typically have reduce penetration against heavier armor at range. A proper recurve bow is ideal for stealth as it is lightweight and does not hinder movement when carried.
    -------------------------------
    So, shortbows set attacks per round to 2, but somehow give a +AC bonus? I get maybe you don't lose AC, but somehow somebody is better at dodging attacks with a bow than without...everything else being equal...doesn't make too much sense to me.

    -------------------------------------
    Longbow: +1 APR, +2 Thac0, +1 DAM, -5% to Stealth skills (~14 STR)

    Reasoning: A longbow is of much greater length and draw weight, typically 80-100 lbs draw weight for a medieval longbow used in war, and due to the higher weight of the arrows and longer breadth of draw typically does not fire as quickly. The penetration of the arrows is greatly increased against armor, however. While not heavy, a longbow is typically more awkward to move quickly with when compared to a shortbow and can act as an impediment when attempting to sneak.
    ------------------------------------

    I agree with the not drawing as quickly, but you will eventually come to where an extra attack is worth MUCH more than +2 THAC0 and +1 damage. The 1.5 attack is a nice middle ground, also given that I am going to limit how much you get out of Ranged ability with shortbows.

    ------------------------------------
    Composite Longbow: +1 APR, +3 Thac0, +3 DAM, +1 Crit, -10% to Stealth, -2 AC (~17 STR)

    Reasoning: A composite longbow is a longbow made from a composite of materials - the draw length is about the same but the draw weight is much higher (~150 lbs) for a bow used in war. The arrows are of a greater gauge, are much heavier, and penetrate much deeper. The quality of the tip is also typically denser with a cylindrical shape (called a bodkin) to penetrate plate armor. The Composite Longbow is typically heavier than other bows - this provides exceptional range and penetration; the composite longbow can be encumbering to someone trying to sneak, however, and the strength required to fire one can be distracting in combat.
    ---------------------------------------
    I like the loss of AC, and I may do -1 AC for Longbows and -2 AC for Composite. Maybe bump up the damage even more like you have. The stealth detriment is a possibility too.

    ---------------------------------------
    I would be interested in penalties to Thac0 for bows based on armor type as well with light armor and unarmored being equal. Crossbows are ideal for heavy and medium armor in terms of the mechanics involved in aiming and shooting.

    I'm a little finnicky when it comes to bows, though - pay me no mind!
    ---------------------------------------
    That can be done. I can script various possibilities regarding armor and certain weaponry. I like the negative THAC0 or even less attacks. The problem is that bows set attacks, not increment them, so, you have to make sure you script adding and reducing everything properly or it ends up not working right.

    Maybe:
    Medium armor:
    Shortbow: -.5 attacks, -1THAC0
    Longbow: -1 THAC0

    Heavy Armor:
    Shortbow: -1 attack, -2 THAC0
    Longbow: -.5 attack, -2 THAC0

  • NukefaceNukeface Member Posts: 91
    You're right, actually, on the AC with the Shortbow. I'd add it as a bonus to shortbow specialization as being able to move quickly is excplicitly a talent you'd develop if you were using a shortbow. I would also use the +2 attacks to counter for only getting a single extra attack through mastery whereas a Longbow might get 2 through mastery, or something similar. Frontload the shortbow with a bonus to simulate ease of use whereas the Longbow eventually becomes better in almost every way except for stealth characters. Maybe a movement bonus at Grandmastery with shortbow?

    The only real difference between a Longbow and a Composite is the strength needed to draw in terms of what the user would experience. You might think of doing an incremental bonus to the negative AC of using a longbow, starting with a -3 and ending at no modifier at 4 pips. An extra -1 for the Composite, maybe.

    Also, you might consider restricting specialty arrows to match the type of bow. Composite Longbow would basically be able to use them all, then you'd have the "stealth" type arrows and the "combat" type arrows split between the Longbow and the Shortbow, with the +3 and above arrows restricted to the Composite.

    I like the armor detriments as you list them for bows.

    Just shooting out ideas!

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    @Nukeface‌

    While I like a lot of your ideas, the issue arises with scripting and what has value versus what doesn't. Scripting will always be slower than integrated hardcode. Thus, when I add in specialties like Ranged or Unarmored, those benefits don't get applied until after the script has run (and not immediately like other bonuses). So, the plan is to maintain as much integrated code already instead of adding more script for minimal gain (and there is already a ton of script added).

    So, right now, all weapons use the base WSPECIAL.2da for their bonus needs. If I want to do anything else, I need to a) tell the game that the person has the item equipped and b) script the change for 6 players. For a simple AC bonus for shortbow, it is better done somewhere else where I plan on running a ton of checks anyway, rather than just that one instance. And I think I have come up with a solid solution as I'll post below.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    I have decided to go back to the max 7 PIPs as it allows better customization and allows me to differentiate more. As of right now, the way I figure it, a fully leveled Fighter type will be able to max everything by end game (which is what I wanted).

    4 starting Prof Points, and 1 per level = 44 total points.
    Weapon = 7
    Armor = 7 (14)
    Style = 7 (21)
    Fortitude = 7 (28)
    Reflex = 5 (33)
    Willpower = 3 (36)
    Ranged or Second Weapon = 7 (43)

    Obviously that is completely maxed and other classes will hit limits before that, but I like how it played out.

    image

    image

    I have altered progression to balance as much as possible. At max weapon, you gain +3 dam, +3TH, 1.5 attacks and -3 Weapon Speed.

    Two Handed and Single weapon style get 1 main benefit per point, as they have the least detriments to start off with. Shield style gets a benefit (ignoring casting speed) to offset some extra negatives from carrying a shield, while DW gets 2 points to offset the big detriment for DW weapons. Ranged is similar to Shield style, as in it also has a max benefit for certain types. IE, a buckler can only get the benefit from 1 proficiency point, meaning, no matter how good you are with shields, bucklers just can't make you a super hero.

    The only other point is that max ranged can be achieved by any longbow/magically created item that is ranged. This will benefit Ninjas, who will have the ability to create their own shuriken and put 7 points in ranged.

    Grammarsalad
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Any insight here would be helpful. Since there will be no dual classing or multiclassing, non-fighting classes are getting a significant boost (mostly in terms of attacks per round). Here is my weapon proficieny and my chart on class MAX APR.

    image

    The last column is the absolute max any kit in the class will be able to obtain.

    image

    Here is the max APR. Basically, Fighters get up to 5 with DW and it then goes down the line. I was debating on where to classify "Thieves and Bards" and "Clerics and Druids". Do I make them even, or should Thieves and Bards be better fighters (I think so). But then how good, should Thieves and Bards be able to hit 5 Pips, which would give them same number of attacks as Fighter types or half an attack less?

    I think the best balance is two bonuses for levels and 1 for weapons for Thieves and Bards.

  • NukefaceNukeface Member Posts: 91
    I would make the Two-Handed style cap at 1 crit and Duelist style cap at 2 crit - the defensive nature of the style makes more sense for a punishing riposte and the lower damage threshold for the weapons in use would gain a lot more utility with 10% threat range. Two-Handed weapons are exactly the opposite of crit machines. A more punishing critical modifier would make more sense, at least to me.

    I would also make Thief cap at 3 APR - my feeling is they already have the situational Backstab working in their favor whereas a Bard has a few different roles they may fill. I also feel like the Paladin should cap at 4 to offset their more defensive qualities whereas a Ranger typically is slightly more offensive so 4.5 makes sense.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    Good analysis and def like giving 1 weapon style the second crit bonus. I'll replace the crit with 1 more damage. Only certain fighter types and monks can even get to grand master each weapon type.

    Paladins and rangers are going through an extensive change including increasing spells and spell levels. I like them both being on equal footing regarding apr. Paladins are heavy weapons and armor and Rangers light weapons and armor.

    I'll think about thieves as well. Backstab goes against bards spell casting.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 382
    With the "esoteric skills" I am going to utilize Reflex and Willpower to govern spell growth. The standard spell charts will distribute learned spell levels, ie, if you have 0 points in Willpower, you will be able to, at most, cast 1 spell per level up to level 7. Each point you put in Willpower or Reflex will add 3 spell slots per initial spell level and 1 more for lower levels.

    If you have 3 points in Willpower, you will be able to learn at the appropriate class level:
    Level 1: 6
    Level 2: 5
    Level 3: 4

    Put another point in Willpower (assuming you have enough CHR and WIS to make it work) and you receive:
    Level1: +1
    Level2: +1
    Level3: +1
    Level4: 3

    Paladins and Rangers max out at 5 in Willpower, thus they can learn up to level 5 spells after their second class change. Bards can learn up to level 7 spells after their 3rd class change.

    Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Clerics can max out. This will slightly change when each receives spells, but maybe by a level or 2.

    This will a) put emphasis on spell casting classes to put proficiency points in to learn spell levels. This will equate to fighter classes and their weapons.

    Even moreso, this will significantly balance out rangers and paladins who, if they want to cast spells, must sacrifice weapon/armor proficiencies in early levels. Thus, while they may come close to fighters at the end, fighters will have more weapon proficiencies than Paladins or Rangers early on.

    Nukeface
  • comebackhomecomebackhome Member Posts: 254
    +1 I like these class idea's.

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