Does a T/M become "fun" in a party in BG2 and later content?

rickcr

Maybe I'm just too impatient to play a T/M, but on this first full play through of BG:EE, I thought I'd enjoy a backstabbing/trap setting toon with some offensive/buffing magic thrown in so I rolled a gnome T/I.
I'm now level 5/4 and I'm not really getting the enjoyment out of like I thought I would.. but that could be possibly that I don't have the patience.
What I'm finding ...

The majority of fights you run into are the random encounters typically with larger groups of baddies. I guess in these fights if I want to use my thief skills I should be stealthing ahead all the time.. then when I spot the enemies, backtrack and maybe set a trap (only have 2 right now) then go ahead and backstab one of them and run back past me trap and have my party engage ... .or maybe even skip the backstab altogether.
The problem is I only have 2 traps and at the rate I seem to get them, I'll always have just a few. on top of this they are usually trash enemies so a waste to use them on them (unless I want to abuse rest.)

So that basically leaves with the majority of fights where I'm just a gimped fighter or gimped mage.
Sure I get that that that you have to be gimped in the classes when you multi/dual.. but the idea is that they synergize together (for example F/M hastes/buffs when fighting, F/C .. same sort of thing.)

I'm guessing the issue is thieves get all the utility like open locks, pickpocket, find traps etc, which although needed of course, I just don't find that the exciting part of the game.

So I'm guessing the answer of course is "roll another class" if you don't like it (which I'll do or maybe use EEKeeper if I decided to go Fighter Illusionist), but before I do switch out, I'd like to know how things change in BG2...
Maybe the utility of the T/M in combat becomes much more impactful.

For solo I can see a T/M or F/M/T being awesome, but in a party doing all the stealthy stuff seems somewhat tedious since I have to walk in stealth or invisible and then remember to go select the rest of the party and bring them up behind me etc. Now, if I cheat a lot and just use the guides so I know where the boss enemies are then it's not a big deal since I only need to stealth at those times, but I'd like to 'try' to avoid that.

I'm thinking of switching to a F/M or F?/C since the backstabs and traps seem to not being playing that huge a factor (at least right now), but since I'm early into the series that could change a lot so that's why I'm posting here.

tl;dr

How does playing a T/M change as you migrate the class towards higher end content? How do you find yourself typically playing the class out? Did you find it one of the more enjoyable class combos to play?

Musigny

Being a mage you can use the various wands. That really makes a difference for your type of charname.

Metalloman

@rickcr moved to the right area, it was in the Italian subforum.

Blades

Invisibility does wonders for you stealth-wise. Your arcane spells make you a great decoy. Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Blur, Shield/Ghost Armor/Spirit Armor, Tenser's Transformation, etc... Plus you will easily catch up to others casters as a dual class. You become a powerful Mage with thief abilities, you will be able to use the Tuigan bow, x3 attacks per round for example. Tons of possibilities. Shadow Dancer/Mage DC is pretty fun.

Kilivitz

The thing is, not all classes are supposed to excel at combat.

That's why you always need one or two warriors (or at least part-warriors) with you.

You're right that thieves are supposed to be utility characters. They can help in combat, using backstab or ranged weapons, or setting traps (if you have time to prepare), or even scouting ahead, but they can't be the center of attention of your enemies. Not all the time, that's for sure.

And that's specially true of Mages. At any level, the Mage is a glass canon, so to speak. You're able to disable or damage lots of enemies, but you need someone to hold the frontlines. Either that or you spend a lot of precious spell slots protecting yourself (and once those protections are gone, you're toast).

I know that's not what you want to hear, but if you want a combat-oriented character, you're better off mixing either of these two classes with Fighter.

rickcr

Based on Blades response I think I'll stick with it longer until higher levels and I have access to those spells mentioned.

@Kilivitz Yup I hear you.. i certainly don't expect a T/M to be a toe-to-toe fighter (like a F/M can.) I think it will get better later though when I can open with backstab then hide and have more options to return back to backstabbing (which I can do now to an extent with 3 invisibility slots - but by the time I get to my 2nd backstab most of the clean up has been handled by the rest of my party.) I think I'm just stuck in a part of chapter 4/5 where I'm not running into a lot of enemies where backstab helps that much.. since most battles seem to end up being in groups... spiders, ettercaps, etc.

I think when I run up against smaller clusters of enemies and casters my enjoyment might change some.

DreadKhan

I/M Is a more defensive/skill based character at lower levels, and in BG1 benefits from using wands/necklace of missiles to augment his other abilities. In BG2, you are able to be more aggressive personally, using speed weapons, IE Tuigan Bow, Kundane, Belm, Scarlet Ninja-To, and likely staves for backwacks. Your THAC0 won't be as good as a fighter, but until late game it isn't exactly bad compared to a F/M. Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise are a big buff for an I/M on his backstabs, and with higher apr options (ranged in BG1).

You definately get more traps, and the traps start getting much better eventually, but a solo I/M likely doesn't need to fight every minor goon, as he'll still cap out. Once you hit UAI, you are on easy-street though, and Epic Traps are truly devestating. A fm will be better vs mooks, an I/M is better vs tough enemies, and mooks are easy with a party.

rickcr

DreadKhan said:

A fm will be better vs mooks, an I/M is better vs tough enemies, and mooks are easy with a party.

That's cool.

DreadKhan

rickcr said:

DreadKhan said:

A fm will be better vs mooks, an I/M is better vs tough enemies, and mooks are easy with a party.

That's cool.

Jan Jansen in BG2 agrees with you.

Wowo

Traps are great when you want to rest for anyone silly enough to disturb you or before annoying people initiate dialogue with you and then attack.

Backstabs are super fun, I go with staff and 2 handed weapon style toget the most out of them in bg1 with the +3 staff or staff of striking.

Later when you get mislead, time stop (trap) and other tricks the character will become increasingly fun.

I'm doing this class solo at the moment and having a ball. Admittedly in a party you're warrior party members will shine against the trash due to their superior attacks per round and consistent damage but that isn't so bad is it?

JuliusBorisov

Just how awesome, and powerful, and fun a T/M can become is illustrated the best here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/38312/the-party-of-spiders-no-reload-scs2-run#latest Check how @semiticgod uses Jan Jansen.

rickcr

bengoshi said:

Just how awesome, and powerful, and fun a T/M can become is illustrated the best here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/38312/the-party-of-spiders-no-reload-scs2-run#latest Check how @semiticgod uses Jan Jansen.

hmm with Jan being so good.. maybe I should consider a different combo. From what I read in the post mentioned (mind you a lot of it was long so I skimmed a lot of it), it doesn't seem like he was used a lot for backstabbing. Unless I'm misreading the post, if charname were F/M for instance, the same type of tactics would have worked with invisibility?

DreadKhan

He does backstab too with Jan, liberally at times. I/T is about being good at everything but being a Cleric... seeing as you can get Rods of Resurrection (and healing potions of course!) and scrolls of Restoration, you really 'need' a cleric mainly for Chaotic Commands in BG2, and you can definately get by without it, though with difficulty mods, this requires lots of metagame knowledge (and plain old game knowledge) and usually immunity items/potions for a solo. Clerics really shine in BG1, and in strange builds in BG2 (ie backstabbing cleric, or using a kit to boost apr, dual classing etc). Its funny, because Clerics are a very strong BG1 solo, but pretty challenging one in BG2.

Anyways, a Fighter Mage can indeed make use of some similar strategies, and will definately find minor enemies a breeze with little planning. Both benefit from making judicious use of debuffs of enemies, and buffing before tougher fights. A Slowed enemy is very easy to steamroll in combat. Thief abilities are better than Fighter abilities vs a very strong enemy almost every time, but a F/M is FAR from weak. The coolest thing IMHO about multiclass fighter is the vast heaping pool of specializations you end up having, so you can use whatever weapon fits the scenario best effectively. A pure Fighter or moreso a dualed out fighter will be shooting for grandmastery, which limits versatility. Easy example, there is a Katana that is hardish to get really early (but its available) that is ridiculously good in SoA, but loses some luster in ToB, and there isn't really another better katana to replace it. But, a multi FM can specialize in katanas for 1 great weapon without making a difference later if it loses utility. This greatly smoothes out the difficulty of the game imho.

/boring rambling

JuliusBorisov

A F/M can't backstab. It's the thief part that can make it happen.

A F/M/T is the ultimate power machine that can backstab superbly.