Is Backstab still useful in SCS?

BanArd

All of my past parties peculiarly lacked backstabbers, so I'm giving them some regard in my next runs.

In my current one, featuring SCS for the first time, Montaron consistently obliterates everyone, but killing mages is tricky, if not cheesy. I have to position him behind enemy mages before they spot me, and pray that he lands his blow as soon as they turn hostile and before they cast their contingency Stoneskin.

I'm probably playing a Stalker for my next run, which I'll take from Candlekeep to Throne, and I'm already afraid that the SCSII mages will render his signature move useless. Any tips to circumvent them?

ChildofBhaal599

my first SCS run was with a fighter/thief, and I still found it worthwhile. with many minor mages all you need is a breach to open them up to a backstab. you also shouldn't forget you are often facing multiple foes, and somebody will be vulnerable to a backstab most likely. if it takes a while before you can hit the mage in question, have them backstab another person and restealth sometime when the mage is vulernable. for this the paws of the cheetah is a great item for the backstabber, as they can easily get out of site and back into the fight in stealth. invisibility pots among other methods of invisibility can also help out with that. lastly, I make it a rule that I can open backstab on most of the red highlighted enemies. if there is a dialogue I'll stop myself and allow it all to play out, but if you are obviously going to fight take advantage still and open backstab on the mage.

semiticgoddess

Speaking from experience with BG2 alone, some SCS2 mages start out with Stoneskin, while others cast it at the beginning of battle or via a contingency. Others can be backstabbed at the start of combat. It's still quite viable in SCS2. And not all of the difficult encounters in SCS2 are mages, so it will help you elsewhere, too.

Blackraven

Definitely viable. Invisibility items (all rings, potions you can find) and good stealth are obviously desirable as are the boots of speed as mentioned by @ChildofBhaal599. The Cloak of Non-Detection will be your friend as well. With it you'll make a lot of wizards waste a precious round casting True Sight in vain.

One disadvantage your Stalker will have compared to a Thief is lack of UAI. My solo Bounty Hunter is having a great time using the Staff of the Magi, both for its invisibility when wielded, which makes that enemy casters can only target him with AoE spells, and - especially - for its dispel on hit. Great weapon for stripping wizards of their protections (except PfMW, but that doesn't last very long anyway), so that they can be properly backstabbed. The backstabbing needs to be done with another weapon than said Staff though.

As to your Stalker, of course unbuffed, not yet hostile characters can easily be dealt with. For (pre-)buffed mages I'd recommend you to have one or two good dispellers in your party. In a small party, a Bard will be very effective with Remove Magic, or Keldorn with Carsomyr (careful with his Dispel innate because it can also dispel buffs of nearby party members). Position your Stalker behind the enemy caster. Have one of your companions dispel, and get your Stalker to one-hit-kill the enemy.

BanArd

Thanks for the feedback! It's been a looong time since I played BG2 so these informations are very good.

@Blackraven A Fighter/Thief should be fairly better than a Stalker, especially when UAI kicks in. I'm going for the later for RP reasons - he's some sort of field agent of Candlekeep so the kit fits like a glove. He'll also be wielding only single longswords, quarterstaves and bastard swords, leave double weapon for cheesy rangers like Drizzt. I love your journals, btw

ChildofBhaal599 said:

lastly, I make it a rule that I can open backstab on most of the red highlighted enemies. if there is a dialogue I'll stop myself and allow it all to play out, but if you are obviously going to fight take advantage still and open backstab on the mage.

That's exactly how I think. In my ongoing evil run, Montarion is a bloodthirsty bastard who is prone to backstab anything that moves, so I don't feed bad about gluing him to every enemy. The Stalker, however, is Lawful Good and the party face, so I plan to initiate all dialogues with him and only backstab "preemptively" those enemies that are red highlighted or suspicious.

JuliusBorisov

As all the three SCS maniacs above have said, you can still backstab even in the SCS setting. Not every enemy is a mage in the game: there're still plenty of targets for chunking from the first try, lots of thieves, fighters, clerics, beholders and illithids among them. Also, if you use some strategy, you can attack those mages who don't have Stoneskin before they become red.

You should follow http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/39041/the-solo-no-reload-adventures-of-norgath-dwarven-bounty-hunter-of-candlekeep#latest - the playthough has a large amount of evidence the backstabbing works fine with the SCS.

You can also combine backstabbing with poison.

If you're going through the whole saga, then this is even funnier: in BG1 and till mid-SoA you'll find more enemies that are better killed with a backstab than without it.

Blackraven

@BanArd, glad you like my playthroughs.
I like your field agent as well, and I respect your decision to use a single weapon wielding Stalker to roleplay it. (The Staff is actually a very good backstabbing weapon, so you're good there.) The concept sounds like fun, and I hope it will be so.

Lord_Tansheron

It's useful, for sure. There are lots of enemies you can backstab into the ground still, but do keep in mind that against many of the tougher enemies, backstabs either won't work or will be hard to use.

Personally I don't particularly like BSs because they tend to be inefficient. You waste so much time setting them up that you'd probably end up doing more damage if you just went in and swung with your whole party. Added to that is the issue of you needing to actually bring a thief (or Stalker) to BS, and I'd rather bring something else ^^

That is not to say BS doesn't have its uses, of course. There are certainly scenarios in which taking out some enemies before they have a chance to do anything is very good.

semiticgoddess

I don't know about BG1, considering the movement rates of the vanilla version and its generally lower backstab multipliers, but in BG2, the +4 THAC0 bonus and the damage multipliers make thieves deal nearly as much damage as fighters, so long as they are managed correctly. It's actually much more efficient for rogues and Fighter/Thieves to backstab instead of just attack.

Running off, using Hide in Shadows, and returning to the enemy takes at most one round to complete, so even a 3x multiplier is worth it. And if your thief is wearing Boots of Speed or is hasted, as they should be for the harder battles, running away will not take away time needed for attacks, especially if you find a corner to hide behind instead of just running out of the enemy's visual range.

Low-level thief in the worst possible environment, without haste: 0.5 APR for 2x damage at +4 THAC0. That's better than its normal 1 APR for 1x damage.
Higher-level thief in a normal environment, with haste: 1 APR for x5 damage, plus 1 APR from haste, plus 1 APR from speed weapon, for an effective total of 7 APR, the first 5 of which are at a +4 THAC0 bonus.

Hit-and-fade backstabbing isn't inefficient unless your thief has truly terrible stealth abilities or you're at extremely low levels. And even if the thief does fail to hide, it can switch to a bow, wait a few seconds, and try again with no time lost.