Dual classing fighter-mage - have I messed up my proficiency points already?!
howmanyhours
Member Posts: 23
Hi – really sorry about starting yet another thread about dual classing a fighter-mage combo. I have tried to search through past threads but I couldn't find anything specific to my situation (though, being totally honest, I did not go through however many hundreds of them there are!).
I have just completed BG:EE after playing it non-stop for about 3 weeks. I think I must have easily clocked up well over 150 hours on it but I do have completionist tendencies and also played with the AI switched off (I'm sure I would have saved so much time but I just didn't trust it not to send my mage within range any and all mobs armed with their magic elemental arrows).
So next up is BGII:EE right? Having heeded advice on how new players can make their first play through both games (relatively) painless, I had played through BG:EE with a human fighter, intending to dual class into a mage in BGII:EE at some point. Anyway, I was gearing up to start on BGII:EE and was reading to see if there were any differences in gameplay between the two games or if I could just jump in and I have become a bit worried that I have nerfed my character even before I have started on the sequel.
It seems that the general consensus on the fighter/mage dual or multi-class to try to get two * in dual wielding and also to avoid allocating too many * against bows as they're much weaker in the sequel than in the first game. My main character though has 3* in longswords and 3* in longbows which did make much of the game a bit of a cakewalk (though I did play on normal mode rather than core…).
So it seems my options are:
1. To dual at level 9 as intended and just accept that for much of the new game, I won't be sniping enemies at range. A massive shame as it was only during the late parts of the game that I discovered the joys of arrows of detonation and magical dispelling. If I go down this route, does it matter where I put that extra proficiency point I get at level 9? I assume there's no point sticking it in dual wielding as the penalties would still be quite significant, so should I just go for being a high master in long swords?
2. To dual at level 13 and stick the proficiency point I get at level 9 and 13 in dual wielding. However, that would mean that I would need to level up to 14 as a mage to get my fighter abilities back. So it looks like I would need to get 2,250,000 XPs over and above the 250,000 XPs needed to get to level 10 as a mage! My worry is that I will be pretty late into the game before this happens or that the wait will put me off the game – I dual classed Imoen at level 6 and waiting for her to get to level 7 seemed to drag on forever. Plus I guess dual-classing at this stage might mean less progression in terms of late game mage abilities?
3. Re-roll a new character and start afresh with the proficiencies which would be a pain as it'd mean losing my existing character who has 19 in everything now apart from wisdom and charisma. On the plus side, it would at least let me play around with one of the other fighter kits before dual-classing.
So any thoughts/comments very gratefully received and thanks for reading!
I have just completed BG:EE after playing it non-stop for about 3 weeks. I think I must have easily clocked up well over 150 hours on it but I do have completionist tendencies and also played with the AI switched off (I'm sure I would have saved so much time but I just didn't trust it not to send my mage within range any and all mobs armed with their magic elemental arrows).
So next up is BGII:EE right? Having heeded advice on how new players can make their first play through both games (relatively) painless, I had played through BG:EE with a human fighter, intending to dual class into a mage in BGII:EE at some point. Anyway, I was gearing up to start on BGII:EE and was reading to see if there were any differences in gameplay between the two games or if I could just jump in and I have become a bit worried that I have nerfed my character even before I have started on the sequel.
It seems that the general consensus on the fighter/mage dual or multi-class to try to get two * in dual wielding and also to avoid allocating too many * against bows as they're much weaker in the sequel than in the first game. My main character though has 3* in longswords and 3* in longbows which did make much of the game a bit of a cakewalk (though I did play on normal mode rather than core…).
So it seems my options are:
1. To dual at level 9 as intended and just accept that for much of the new game, I won't be sniping enemies at range. A massive shame as it was only during the late parts of the game that I discovered the joys of arrows of detonation and magical dispelling. If I go down this route, does it matter where I put that extra proficiency point I get at level 9? I assume there's no point sticking it in dual wielding as the penalties would still be quite significant, so should I just go for being a high master in long swords?
2. To dual at level 13 and stick the proficiency point I get at level 9 and 13 in dual wielding. However, that would mean that I would need to level up to 14 as a mage to get my fighter abilities back. So it looks like I would need to get 2,250,000 XPs over and above the 250,000 XPs needed to get to level 10 as a mage! My worry is that I will be pretty late into the game before this happens or that the wait will put me off the game – I dual classed Imoen at level 6 and waiting for her to get to level 7 seemed to drag on forever. Plus I guess dual-classing at this stage might mean less progression in terms of late game mage abilities?
3. Re-roll a new character and start afresh with the proficiencies which would be a pain as it'd mean losing my existing character who has 19 in everything now apart from wisdom and charisma. On the plus side, it would at least let me play around with one of the other fighter kits before dual-classing.
So any thoughts/comments very gratefully received and thanks for reading!
2
Comments
2.) Stick to level 9 if you have a party, it's so boring to wait until 13 and then wait until 14 before you can really play your character.
3.) Stick to this character, you don't need to dual wield or anything else, and bows while weaker in BG2ee are still decently good.
It's an easy game, especially with a fighter/mage, so don't worry about it. But if you do want to change them, download eekeeper and you can change your proficiency if you want.
- Just open up eekeeper and fix the prof points
- To dual at 13, with mage go and buy every single scroll (Red wizard enclave have high level ones) kick out all party members while game is paused and write all the scrolls; You will get massive xp.
I'm not seeing how some prof points will affect your gameplay so much at normal difficulty... If you just abuse the spell web and pull out summons like Flesh Golem manual or spider figurine (Both obtainable @ chap 2) it's a walkover, because all your attacks automatically hit on webbed targets.
Dual class at 9 if you have a party, 13 is nice for solo but has never and will never be needed.
You'll get proficiency points as a mage at level
1,6,12,18,24,30.
You'll only be able to put the 12,18,24,30 into figher weapons UNLESS you use the method i told you above, which would let you also put #6.
Unfortunately, I am playing on an iPad so I'm not sure how easy it would be to try to modify the game through downloading another programme (not very easy I suspect, especially if you're not very tech savy like me). I was thinking of upping the difficulty level to core for my BGII:EE playthrough as it sounds as though it might be an easier game than BG:EE - I am possibly getting too cocky and will pay for it later!
Proficiency-wise, its not really ideal, but it isn't bad either. Imho, you might actually do better with a bow than in melee, as you only need 2 more for GM, and your THAC0 won't be as competetive for late BG2. You should by ToB be using your character much more as a primary caster, so bows are a good fit for that, and longswords aren't superb in BG2 anyways. I don't think you'll be hitting as often as you'd like in melee unless you cat Tenser's Transformation, which disables your spells, and again, you are going to be a primary caster, so this rarely is ideal.
You can buy a bow that does +3 damage early on, but it requires 19 str to use, meaning you can use it. It and fun things like Acid Arrows and Arrows of Dispelling will serve you well. Just use 1 or 2 of the solid tanks available in BG2 and you're set!
But I agree if you're not kensai, you might actually want to dual already at level 7 to make it less painful. Level 9 isn't much more powerful.
I prefer level 9 for the HP, but 7 is fine too, 13 is way too high unless you're solo.
I think we can all agree a Vanilla fighter to mage should do his dualclassing early rafher then later.
@SionIV In BG2, even with a full party you should have no trouble completing a dual from lvl 13 with a kensai, and for a kensai, it IS worth it, unless you hate using an arcane caster without ability to hit things for part of SoA. 13th is the minimum if you intend to melee things in ToB, and with your substantial +4 damage, that 1/2 apr adds more. A 9th level mage can already be extremely useful to a party, so even with less levels than the party, he won't need any babysitting. Heck, a 9th lvl mage could pretty safely solo the game in vanilla.
Strengthwise, a Berserker is always better than a kensai unless you dual at 13 or later. Thief is maybe an exception due to UAI not removing kensai bonus' when using encumbering gear, meaning you can wear the gauntlets, but a 9th lvl Kensai is straight up weaker than a Berserker, end of discussion.
Again, getting that XP with a mage is not exactly difficult, you may have heard Mages are very powerful in BG? 5th lvl spells are very effective, it's not likely to be as hard even as getting your initial Kensai XP was for heaven's sake.
Most people nab what, ~7m XP per party member on an entire playthrough without grinding? Maybe only 6m if they skip some quests?? This isn't IWD, THAC0 matters more, and there is lots of XP even if you don't grind.
That said, I agree personal taste is important; if running a Mage for awhile bothers you, dual sooner, and be a Berserker.
Most people don't play ToB, they finnish SoA and that's it.
This doesn't have anything to do with Kensai or Berserker, this has to do with dual classing at 13 or 9. And if you have a 4-6 man party you want to dual class at 9 or you'll spend almost all of SoA with an inactive class.
On the subject of Berserker or Kensai. I always find the Berserker to be the better choice, even at level 13. Rage is that good.
And yes this isn't IWD, in this game you can have 3 all stats, dual class at level 2 from a wizard slayer and still solo the entire game on SCS. It's that easy being a mage in this game, you don't need a level 7, 9 or 13 Kensai, it's just a bonus.
How does this have nothing to do with Kensai vs Berserker exactly?? Kensai mage is inherently a powergamey build that largely disregards RP, as what sword saint abandons his sword for ANY length of time? Anyways, you asserted that dualing a kensai at 9th was a good choice, and it is mechanically significantly worse than a Berserker 9th.
Regardless, as I said, I am willing to agree 'as a matter of personal taste' one might easily prefer an earlier dual, but doing it with a Kensai we both would have to agree is just plain dumb. Berserkers get rage, and can wear Gauntlets after the dual, meaning a 9th level Berserker dual does more damage per hit and has 1/2 apr more, on top of crazy-utility of Berserker immunities. We are essentially in agreement. *shrug*
As a random further off topic point, an Illusionist Fighter is strictly better than a dualed F/M, other than Berserker immunities. More spells eventually, shorty bonuses, and no down time period. Also gobs of HLA and max THAC0.
That will be the last for me in this thread, but thank you for the discussion
[Edited] : I made the thread
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/39460/throne-of-bhaal?new=1
A fighter is only useful insofar as it can survive, and at level 9, your saving throws aren't going to be good enough to keep the Kensai safe from disablers, even if you play a dwarf. There's a point at which the amount of damage your fighter does no longer matters (also known as Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and/or PFMW) and a point at which disablers mean the difference between life and death (also known as "Baldur's Gate II").
If your Kensai is at level 9, your cleric or druid isn't going to be able to have Chaotic Commands for everyone. So if you want to cover the Kensai's lack of immunities, somebody else in the party is going to have to pay. And the Kensai can't use a Helmet of Charm Protection or the Shield of Harmony. That means it either weakens another party member, goes without immunities, or equips the right weapon (say, Lilarcor) every time an enemy disabler is cast. If you always equip that weapon, you're losing out on damage compared to the Berserker, because the most damaging weapons (Crom Faeyr, Celestial Fury, etc.) do not have immunities. But if you don't always equip that weapon, you might get caught off guard.
Or are you talking about a dual-classed fighter, dualed at level 9? Because the Kensai/Mage won't have the Robe of Vecna. The Kensai/Druid and Kensai/Cleric won't have Vhailor's Helm. The only possible exception would be a Kensai/Thief, which does not suffer a loss of items thanks to UAI. But UAI takes over 3 million XP to reach. Until then, your Kensai/whatever is going to be a lot more vulnerable to disablers than the Berserker/whatever. Same goes for single-classes at level 9.
If you want to tell us "end of discussion," tell us a Sorceror is better than an Archer in an insane solo poverty run.
@semiticgod heh, good post. I was taking the angle that people only dual kensai mages 'for the damage', so 13th is the happy medium, as below that Berserkers are just better at everything.
What do you think about the OPs question though? I say dual early and concenrate on archery, being vanilla fighter and having *** in Longswords and Longbows. Seems the best choice short of Keepering, at least to me!
As for @howmanyhours, I think archery is a fine choice for a dual-classed fighter to mage. With 19 STR, you can use the Strongarm bow, which will keep your damage competitive for much of SoA. The more important thing would be to cover your earlier game, since the later game will invariably focus much more heavily on spellcasting. It's possible to get a more powerful late-game option, but I wouldn't bother. You might, say, design a build based on dual-wielding scimitars and flails for Belm and the Flail of Ages, and that would be stronger, eventually, than archery and Namarra.
But by the late game in SoA and for basically all of ToB, you won't really notice those weapons as much as you'll notice your new spells. Your spells are going to outshine your weapons in the late game, so why bother planning out late-game weapon setups? Go for the bows.
Although even then, Melissan was difficult.
You can also cast Chain Contingency via a hotkey, which works even for divine spellcasters without mage levels. In an old Tactics run, I would have Fighter/Druids casting Insect Plague and Earthquake while using Greater Werewolf Tokens. Very unbalanced and crazy.
I've heard you can do it with Spell Immunity, but I've never gotten it to work. The hotkey works fine, but it behaves normally, not like with NRD and CC. So, no infinite SI unless you use the Wand of Lightning trick or the NRD trick.
Sounds like it might just be a matter of personal preference as to where those 4* eventually end up.
Key Points in Favour of Archery For This Character:
1) As the character is dualing from vanilla fighter, and not a kit, it is a fact that his will be relatively speaking much better at being a mage than being a fighter. Melee range characters are more likely by far to be targeted for attacks/spells, and more likely to run into nasty traps. Mages work better if you can minimize the risk of being interrupted during casting or magically disabled! As interrupted spells suck. Amulet of Power and Robe of Vecna help, but you still can flub longer spells.
2) Longswords are rather suboptimal in both SoA and ToB. Daystar is handy I freely admit, and Namara is decent, but there are solidly better weapon pics, which short of editing, he can't use at grandmastery level proficiency.
3) If he takes DW, he will need a while to get 2 pips, and it will be pretty late (as in, probably well into ToB) when he gets both GM in Longswords (which has no speed weapon, fwiw) and 2 pips in TWF. His THAC0 is not going to be high enough to even think about relying on DW without the two pips minimum, seeing as he'll dual at 9th level.
4) Archery is solid in BG2, moreso SoA than ToB. This character can make excellent use of Acid and Dispel Arrows, as well as whatever other ammo he has kicking around. With GM in Longbows, and using Strongarm, he has 9-15 damage without special ammo and Bows get 2 base apr, for 3.5 apr without the gauntlets.
The very marginal (eventual) increase in damage is just not that worthwhile when he can have so much versatility from the get go. The biggest issue with Longbow Archery is ability to hit as a +5 weapon, but thats only very late a real issue, and he will have 9th level spells for those fights.