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Druid + Druid Kits

So I've come to the realization that I've never really bothered with the Druid kits and I kind of want to get into them now, but their descriptions kinda make it seem like the Avenger is badass and the Totemic Druid and the Shapeshifter suck.

Totemic Druids get 1 spirit animal and can't shapeshift. What? I was honestly expecting something along the lines of "World of Warcraft" type of Druids, which was obviously stupid of me, but still, this looks kind of disappointing.

Shapeshifters can only Shapeshift into Werewolves. Okay? Can I get a description of the Werewolf and his abilities? To-Hit chance? Do you get more THAC0? What?

Avengers get to shapeshift into a nice assortment of stronger things AND the original Druid shapeshifting. It's like a stronger version of the Druid.

What is the huge difference between all of these and are the Totemic Druid and Shapeshifter actually good in a way?
BlackravendibJuliusBorisov
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Comments

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Totemic druid is very good, the summons scale with your level and at higher levels they gain super powerful immunities and special attacks. You can also select which animal spirit to call, depending on your circumstances so it opens up some tactical options. Check the table which sums up totemic druid spirit animals abilities. It is somewhere on the net.
    BlackravenCaeDaresCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Shapeshifter is generally considered pretty bad. Totem druid is not. Let me put it this way: when you shapeshift, that's roughly analogous to summoning a reasonably powerful animal at the expense of losing your druid for as long as the summon lasts. When you use the totem druid summons, you summon a reasonably powerful animal at the expense of... nothing. And you can summon more than one at once, if you want to. It's pretty fantastic.
    BlackravenCaeDaresCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited February 2015
    You might want to check @bengoshi's Tale of the Totemic Druid, to get an impression of how this kit works.

    Shapeshifter is indeed a bit underwhelming, at least in my opinion. The werewolf paws deal only 1d6 piercing damage (which is the weakest damage type) and they don't scale beyond an enchantment of +2, meaning plenty of enemies in SoA and all relevant enemies in ToB will be immune to your attacks.
    Sure you can rely on lots of spells in late SoA and in ToB, but I have difficulty enjoying a kit if its special traits become obsolete in the course of the game.
    Post edited by Blackraven on
    CaeDaresCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    edited February 2015
    If you install BG2 Tweaks' component about Shapeshifters it drastically improves their performance so they're not as nerfed.

    EDIT: Here's the link - it's under Content Changes http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-bg2tweaks.html
    BlackravenJarrakulAstroBryGuyCrevsDaak
  • CaeDaresCaeDares Member Posts: 182
    Thanks a bunch for the information on the Shapeshifter and the Totemic Druid. What about the Avenger, though? Is it the same case as the Shapeshifter where even if you shapeshift youre still losing your Druid or does it make up for that?
    JuliusBorisov
  • CaeDaresCaeDares Member Posts: 182
    Neverused said:

    Avengers are considered fairly strong as well; the hit to CON doesn't matter as you get max HP at 16, the hit to STR shouldn't matter since if you're in melee with a non-shapeshifted Avenger something went wrong, and armor is more or less irrelevant for casters anyways. In exchange, you gain bonus spells, and pretty killer spells: Chromatic Orb isn't THAT good, but it's better than any other Druid level 1 spell offensively and a decent troll-killer in BG2 after a few levels. Level 2 gives Web which can neutralize many encounters by itself, and gives an Avenger something useful to do with those slots. (What else is there anyways? Barkskin? Flame blade? Goodberries?) Also note that you can become immune to your own Webs in Sword Spider Shapeshift.

    Level 3 I admit isn't as good: spamming Lightning Bolt is asking for trouble if you make a mistake with the bounces. Synergizes nicely with Protect from Lightning though, if you're solo. Level 4 grants Improved Invisibility. Immunity to single-target spells for 10 rounds? Sounds good to me! Level 5 grants Chaos, though your slots are likely going to be taken up with Chaotic Commands and Insect Plague if you're in a party. Level 6 grants only Chain Lightning, which, while good, is not as game breaking as the Fire Elementals.

    About the Shapeshifts: Sword Spider is again immune to Web, and gets 4 attacks per round at hopefully helpless targets. GG. Fire Salamander is good for killing Trolls, but I'm not sure what else. I suppose Baby Wyvern could be used for poisoning mages to stop their casts, but I've never had to try this: the Insect spells are generally good enough to murder any opposing spell casters.

    All in all, Avengers are a sight stronger than the standard druid class: they might even be the most powerful druid kit, though the Totemic druid has a chance to vie for that title.

    Thanks a bunch for this, and to everybody else for the help. I'm playing as a Totemic Druid right now but I'll probably remake her into an Avenger because they have more abilities all around. Spirit animals are strong and resistant which is nice, but I'd rather not rely on my spirit animal for everything. Thanks again everybody.
    BlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Chaos is a very powerful spell actually, as it has a steep penalty for enemy saves. In BG1, it can do most of the work vs the end boss even, but its best vs groups. Against a caster though, it can effectively shut down their casting, which is deadly for them.

    Web is absurdly good as noted, and has good synergy with your sword spider form. Try casting two or even 3 webs for tough groups, if you can. Almost nobody can make that many saves successfully at a penalty.

    Chain Lightning gets more useful imho much later, after Fire Elementals aren't good enough, though its nowhere near as good as Web or Chaos.
    JuliusBorisov
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Avenger is a very strong Druid Kit. The mage spells it gains really round out its spellcasting. The penalties aren't really very... penalizing.
    DreadKhanJuliusBorisov
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    @elminster is a big fan of druids and arguing their merits. I am surprised he hasn't seemed to stumble upon this thread yet.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited February 2015
    One thing you have to understand is that AD&D druid shapeshifting is a niche ability. D&D was there before WoW - WoW actually borrowed certain basic elements from D&D, and you could say that one of the ways WoW added its own "twist" to the druid class was to make shapeshifting a core ability in their game.
    In the end, all AD&D druids are casters, and BG2 druids have excellent summoning and disabling spells. Many BG2 druid spells are also persistent effect spells (ie, cast-and-forget spells), so it is possible to juggle shapeshifting with casting. At higher levels though a druid should be spending most of its time casting spells.

    That in mind, the main draw of the Shapeshifter kit is that it gives you a form that's pretty effective against humanoids. The effect is like having a dual-classed fighter/druid with low fighter levels, except you do not actually lose any XP from multiclassing. You can also switch forms several times a day, which is what makes it unique from your typical druid.
    The main draw of the Totemic Druid is that it abandons shapeshifting altogether in favor of extra summoning spells. In a sense, it's the druid kit that is dedicated to being a caster 100% of the time.
    The thing about the Avenger is that with some party setups its abilities act like a sort of red herring. See, when you bring along a druid, it's usually because you're looking to use spells like healing spells, Entanglement, Call Woodland Beings (sersly, who cares about Chaos when you have this spell), Insect Plague (mages-be-gone), Conjure Fire Elemental (the large ones can hit Kangaax, this is one of the handful of summons that can actually hit certain powerful monsters), Creeping Doom (more powerful version of mages-be-gone, Nature's Beauty (fighters-be-gone), etc. And guess what - if you plan on using these spells extensively, you'll be missing many of the bonus abilities Avengers get. Avengers shine in parties where you need more castings of Chromatic Orb, Web (this spell, in particular), and the other bonus spells they normally get, with their extra forms giving you bonus utility. But if you already have enough arcane casters and you want a druid specifically for their access to druid spells, then you might as well have brought along a plain druid for all the Avenger's bonuses are worth (btw, this is the main reason why Totemic Druids are preferred in many party setups).
    Post edited by Nuin on
    JarrakulBlackravenSkatanJuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Who uses healing? You need to win faster. ;) Also Entangle is a crummy, crummy spell. Chromatic Orb may be bit of a stinker, but Entangle is hard to justify casting in many cases. Just use Sleep instead. Or even Grease. Next level gives Web!

    I am somewhat in agreement that an Avenger's casting will be less druidy generally, but his high level alots, when Druids really gather steam, are going to likely be Druid spells. Rarely would Chain Lightning be the bet choice you can make for a given cast, and they have standard 7th level.

    So, my view is that during the period when Druids are crappy casters Avengers are really solid.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited February 2015
    The only really bad druid spells are the level two ones. Everyone uses healing. And you might want to reconsider your views on Entanglement, especially when you go so far as to compare it with Grease.
    Seriously.
    It's not THAT bad, we're talking about a spell that can help you tackle higher level parties by itself and you get it automatically. Compared to other level 1 spells, it's one of the best level 1 spells around.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    I love stacking multiple movement impairment spells. Grease+Web+Entangle+Whatever. They're gonna fail a save in there somewhere.
    Reticent
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Entanglement vs Sleep is an open/shut case though, and you can buy a Sleep wand, so yeah. Entangle is very, very limited in utility vs dangerous parties because most of them either have casters or archers. The save isn't hard enough for Entangle to really be reliable, and not locking people fully, just not letting them walk is less than stellar. I used Entangle in BG1 when I started out, but Jaheira had nothing else worth casting then, and I hadn't figured out Sleep yet.

    At low levels for a Cleric, another use of Command is almost always considerably better than casting CLW... a sleeping ogre is an ogre that can't hit you. A sleeping caster is a dead caster. Druids don't get Command though, but Avengers get Chromatic Orb, and direct damaging an enemy will end a fight sooner, meaning you take less damage. Entangle can be theoreticly useful, but by the time either your Sleep wand or spell isn't strong enough, you have Web anyways, and Web is so much better than Entangle. If Entangle didn't use up your casting for the round, sure, it'd be competetive, but the opportunity cost makes it not worth casting imho, unless we're talking before you can visit High Hedge, and there aren't many fights Entangle is useful for before that. Entangle Tarnesh? Still gonna Horror you. You prepared CLW? Too bad he can drop a lvl 1 character with MM, espcially a squishy. Healing can be handy, but you should use potions during battles, and after the battle, you can usually rest. Or if you're a Good Guy, you get 2 casts of CLW for free.

    I do often like having as many people as possible have 1 cast of Slow Poison pretty much at all times, but just normal healing uses up slots that could be winning the fight sooner, and thus I find it inefficient.

    After I soloed a Cleric and Cleric Thief through BG1, I really got a new appreciation of how much better shutting down an enemy is over healing. Command was cast so many times those playthroughs. Sorcerer was actually harder in many cases, even having Sleep and Web, though Spider Spawn really pushes things in their favour later.

    @CaptRory the thing is though, just casting 3 Webs is better. The save is tougher, and saving doesn't guarantee escape. Mind you, webbing Sarevok's party might not make your playthrough as satisfying.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    @DreadKhan Which is great if you have three mages or three people that can cast web. Also, I don't like casting multiples of the same spell like that. It works but it seems cheap in a game where magic already dominates. If I'm not covering different areas I'm probably not casting the same spell multiple times. If I drop three sleeps in a battle it's because I'm surrounded by bandits or reinforcements keep walking in. Two webs means the first one expired or I'm covering a large front.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I agree that at low levels druids don't have a lot of good options, and that Web is great for avengers. I find Chromatic Orb pretty generally useless, though, and at higher levels druids simply have better options than their avenger bonus spells. This means that avengers are basically getting Web and some cool new forms. Honestly, with penalties as weak as theirs, that seems like a good trade, but I'll take the totem druid any day, even if it means I have to rely on arcane casters for my Web spells. To each their own, though. I know a lot of folks have seen great success with avengers.

    Notably, my position would probably change if I could target lightning bolts to save my life. I can't, though.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    If you've got Protection from Lightning cast and are wearing boots of grounding, targeting Lightning Bolts is less sensitive. Just cast in tight spaces! Chromstic Orb is substantially better than nothing though, which other Druids get from that level of spells. Combined with using Darts, Daggers or a Sling you can deal out more damage per round, or you can use Chromatic Orb to help interrupt enemy casters.

    You are badly underestimating Chaos though. That is one nasty spell, and hard to avoid. Regarding getting Web, you're getting the best 2nd level spell hands down, fof a class thst normally has nothing useful in that slot.

    Totemic Druids are solidly better than Vanilla or Shapeshifters I'd say, but Avengers are mechanically a fair bit stronger.

    @CaptRory well, thats your choice. Besides, you don't need 3 casters to drop webs, though life is very easy if you prepare a sequencer with 2 Webs. Cast Greater Malison right after, and nobody is getting out of that pickle. Afaik, this isn't even an exploit really, this is how its supposed to work. You should play the way you enjoy though.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    I regularly use shillelagh and flameblade in bg1 for level 1/2 spells
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Shillelagh can be handy if you've got no magic weapons on a Fighter Druid. Chromatic Orb might be better in most cases, but not always. 1st and 2nd level druid spells everyone agrees are pretty awful. 3rd starts getting better at least.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    DreadKhan said:

    If you've got Protection from Lightning cast and are wearing boots of grounding, targeting Lightning Bolts is less sensitive. Just cast in tight spaces! Chromstic Orb is substantially better than nothing though, which other Druids get from that level of spells. Combined with using Darts, Daggers or a Sling you can deal out more damage per round, or you can use Chromatic Orb to help interrupt enemy casters.

    You are badly underestimating Chaos though. That is one nasty spell, and hard to avoid. Regarding getting Web, you're getting the best 2nd level spell hands down, fof a class thst normally has nothing useful in that slot.

    Chromatic Orb is... marginally better than nothing. Which is an advantage, definitely, but it's not much of one. As for Chaos, I'll readily admit it's a fantastic spell, but it's competing with Insect Plague and Ironskins. I'm sorry, but there are simply very few situations in which I'd rather have Chaos, and for those I generally have a mage. In solo situations it might be different, as with Web, but I just find it hard to justify taking Chaos instead of Insect Plague when one is druid-unique and the other isn't.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I can't see many circumstances when an Avenger would even need Ironskins though. By the time you can cast it, you could be casting Chaos, and Chaos will likely reduce considerably the number of attacks against you. Besides, if an Avenger is going to melee, he goes Web and Sword Spider, and will never get attacked if you do it right.

    Chaos is more useful vs a much wider array of targets than Insect Plague. Thats why you might want to prepare Chaos, it can clear out combat-heavy groups with one cast. I got Tazok confused once, and Angelo killed Semaj while blasting Tazok, Tazok kill Angelo, and Sarevok killed Tazok. :p No way Insect Plague can create such... Chaos. There are times Insect Plague or Fire Elementals are better, but Chaos is a big boost in power.

    Chromatic Orb isn't great, but as a first level Druid spell, its totally worth casting and preparing.

    I'm not saying Totemics are bad, they just aren't as powerful as Avengers are if played to the best of their abilities.
    GoodSteveArdulTresset
  • alastair93alastair93 Member Posts: 117
    Avengers are awesome. In my opinion, web and improved invisibility are their best spells from their kit. To really make use of chromatic orb you need greater malison from a mage first.

    The Fire Salamander form can pair nicely with the Firestorm spell, so that you're completely immune to the damage.
    CaptRory
  • CaeDaresCaeDares Member Posts: 182
    Wow. So many comments in just a day. Continue this discussion because I find it interesting and it's really peaking my interest in this topic.
    Just so everybody knows, I went ahead and went with the Totemic Druid who is almost level 5 and I'm currently at the Mines because the idea of a Spirit Animal is cool, but at the same time it's confusing and I want to try and understand these spirit animals. To me, it's a new challenge. I would've went with an Avenger but the shapeshifts were a bit obvious when it came to their uses.
    As for the Totemic Druid, answer me this: I understand that the Spirit Bear is basically your in-game "Summon-It-When-You-Need-It" tank. But as far as the Wolf, the Lion, and the Snake go, what are their differences? The Lion is a bit tankier than the Wolf and the Snake isn't as tanky as the wolf, but they all seem to hit at the same rate and do just about the same amount of damage (Yes, I have already looked at the thread describing the different Spirits to me, but it was all clustered.)
    JuliusBorisov
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    edited February 2015
    Druids are a really good choice for BG1.
    Their abilities are especially good for the mid-end BG1 game (shapeshifting, access to level 5 spells, totemic summons)

    However they tend to fade away in BG2: their combat abilities (from totemic summon or shapeshifting) become less and less useful so they progressively become pure spellcasters.

    And in that role, while far from being useless, they are miles behind arcane casters.
    Post edited by mumumomo on
    elminster
  • CaeDaresCaeDares Member Posts: 182
    mumumomo said:

    Druids are a really good choice for BG1.
    Their abilities are especially good for the mid-end BG1 game (shapeshifting, access to level 5 spells, totemic summons)

    However they tend to fade away in BG2: their combat abilities (from totemic summon or shapeshifting) become less and less useful so they progressively become pure spellcasters.

    And in that role, while far from being useless, they are miles behind arcane casters.

    That's how it seems to be for every class that doesn't specialize in creating destruction, such as Clerics, Bards and, now, apparently Druids.
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 803
    For the Totemic Animals: Bear is my least favorite, since it's slow and its on-hit effect is to make things run away from it: not exactly a combination that synergies too well. Lion is the real brute with its 19 strength by level 10, hitting at 3 APR at 1d8 + 9 damage: best used against lots of mooks and fighters. Decent against spell casters without Stoneskins, but if they are...

    That's where Snake and Wolf come in. Even if their (low) damage is blocked by the Skins, the Poison effects and the cold damage still get through and can still interrupt the spell. Snake poison ticks at damage PER SECOND, so if spells are interruptible, the Spirit Snake can usually get the job done if it gets in a hit. It also has the best AC, for what it's worth.
    Jarrakul
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    mumumomo said:

    Druids are a really good choice for BG1.
    Their abilities are especially good for the mid-end BG1 game (shapeshifting, access to level 5 spells, totemic summons)

    However they tend to fade away in BG2: their combat abilities (from totemic summon or shapeshifting) become less and less useful so they progressively become pure spellcasters.

    And in that role, while far from being useless, they are miles behind arcane casters.

    I disagree with this. Druids in BG2 can use Belm, meaning that a dual-wield druid can seriously hold his/her own in combat. Add in Ironskins, Armor of Faith, and ankheg plate, and the druid can easily tank the entire game.

    As for their offensive casting, while they are overall behind mages, they have several really fantastic spells that mages simply cannot match (Insect Plague, Creeping Doom, Nature's Beauty). Their main disadvantage, imo, is that their best spells have long casting times and they can't wear the Robe of Vecna. So I wouldn't go selling druids short.

    Of course, in the end, *everything* is miles behind arcane casters. So I kind of do agree with that, I just have difficulty criticizing something on the grounds that it's not a mage.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited February 2015
    You forgot to point out that arcane casters only dominate BG2 in late game. Getting there is another story, and druids practically rule early-mid game thanks to Call Woodland Beings (anti-humanoid), Insect Plague/Creeping Doom (anti-caster) and Nature's Beauty (anti-warrior).
    A party with a druid in their group can (easily) take on pretty much any major encounter in BG2 the moment they exit Irenicus' dungeon and with some minor preparation, win - from Mencar Pebbecrusher's group to the Celestial Fury Group to Kangaax. And just like that, everyone in your party is suddenly geared enough to to take down powerful "boss" level enemies like dragons.
    They retain their usefulness in late game primarily because of Nature's Beauty (this spell is so ridiculously OP it's laughable someone would actually say that druid spellcasting is "miles behind" anything), Energy Blades, Harm/Heal and the fact that they become the best healers in the game the moment they get Call Woodland Beings.

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