Druid + Druid Kits
CaeDares
Member Posts: 182
So I've come to the realization that I've never really bothered with the Druid kits and I kind of want to get into them now, but their descriptions kinda make it seem like the Avenger is badass and the Totemic Druid and the Shapeshifter suck.
Totemic Druids get 1 spirit animal and can't shapeshift. What? I was honestly expecting something along the lines of "World of Warcraft" type of Druids, which was obviously stupid of me, but still, this looks kind of disappointing.
Shapeshifters can only Shapeshift into Werewolves. Okay? Can I get a description of the Werewolf and his abilities? To-Hit chance? Do you get more THAC0? What?
Avengers get to shapeshift into a nice assortment of stronger things AND the original Druid shapeshifting. It's like a stronger version of the Druid.
What is the huge difference between all of these and are the Totemic Druid and Shapeshifter actually good in a way?
Totemic Druids get 1 spirit animal and can't shapeshift. What? I was honestly expecting something along the lines of "World of Warcraft" type of Druids, which was obviously stupid of me, but still, this looks kind of disappointing.
Shapeshifters can only Shapeshift into Werewolves. Okay? Can I get a description of the Werewolf and his abilities? To-Hit chance? Do you get more THAC0? What?
Avengers get to shapeshift into a nice assortment of stronger things AND the original Druid shapeshifting. It's like a stronger version of the Druid.
What is the huge difference between all of these and are the Totemic Druid and Shapeshifter actually good in a way?
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Comments
Shapeshifter is indeed a bit underwhelming, at least in my opinion. The werewolf paws deal only 1d6 piercing damage (which is the weakest damage type) and they don't scale beyond an enchantment of +2, meaning plenty of enemies in SoA and all relevant enemies in ToB will be immune to your attacks.
Sure you can rely on lots of spells in late SoA and in ToB, but I have difficulty enjoying a kit if its special traits become obsolete in the course of the game.
EDIT: Here's the link - it's under Content Changes http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-bg2tweaks.html
Level 3 I admit isn't as good: spamming Lightning Bolt is asking for trouble if you make a mistake with the bounces. Synergizes nicely with Protect from Lightning though, if you're solo. Level 4 grants Improved Invisibility. Immunity to single-target spells for 10 rounds? Sounds good to me! Level 5 grants Chaos, though your slots are likely going to be taken up with Chaotic Commands and Insect Plague if you're in a party. Level 6 grants only Chain Lightning, which, while good, is not as game breaking as the Fire Elementals.
About the Shapeshifts: Sword Spider is again immune to Web, and gets 4 attacks per round at hopefully helpless targets. GG. Fire Salamander is good for killing Trolls, but I'm not sure what else. I suppose Baby Wyvern could be used for poisoning mages to stop their casts, but I've never had to try this: the Insect spells are generally good enough to murder any opposing spell casters.
All in all, Avengers are a sight stronger than the standard druid class: they might even be the most powerful druid kit, though the Totemic druid has a chance to vie for that title.
Web is absurdly good as noted, and has good synergy with your sword spider form. Try casting two or even 3 webs for tough groups, if you can. Almost nobody can make that many saves successfully at a penalty.
Chain Lightning gets more useful imho much later, after Fire Elementals aren't good enough, though its nowhere near as good as Web or Chaos.
In the end, all AD&D druids are casters, and BG2 druids have excellent summoning and disabling spells. Many BG2 druid spells are also persistent effect spells (ie, cast-and-forget spells), so it is possible to juggle shapeshifting with casting. At higher levels though a druid should be spending most of its time casting spells.
That in mind, the main draw of the Shapeshifter kit is that it gives you a form that's pretty effective against humanoids. The effect is like having a dual-classed fighter/druid with low fighter levels, except you do not actually lose any XP from multiclassing. You can also switch forms several times a day, which is what makes it unique from your typical druid.
The main draw of the Totemic Druid is that it abandons shapeshifting altogether in favor of extra summoning spells. In a sense, it's the druid kit that is dedicated to being a caster 100% of the time.
The thing about the Avenger is that with some party setups its abilities act like a sort of red herring. See, when you bring along a druid, it's usually because you're looking to use spells like healing spells, Entanglement, Call Woodland Beings (sersly, who cares about Chaos when you have this spell), Insect Plague (mages-be-gone), Conjure Fire Elemental (the large ones can hit Kangaax, this is one of the handful of summons that can actually hit certain powerful monsters), Creeping Doom (more powerful version of mages-be-gone, Nature's Beauty (fighters-be-gone), etc. And guess what - if you plan on using these spells extensively, you'll be missing many of the bonus abilities Avengers get. Avengers shine in parties where you need more castings of Chromatic Orb, Web (this spell, in particular), and the other bonus spells they normally get, with their extra forms giving you bonus utility. But if you already have enough arcane casters and you want a druid specifically for their access to druid spells, then you might as well have brought along a plain druid for all the Avenger's bonuses are worth (btw, this is the main reason why Totemic Druids are preferred in many party setups).
I am somewhat in agreement that an Avenger's casting will be less druidy generally, but his high level alots, when Druids really gather steam, are going to likely be Druid spells. Rarely would Chain Lightning be the bet choice you can make for a given cast, and they have standard 7th level.
So, my view is that during the period when Druids are crappy casters Avengers are really solid.
Seriously.
It's not THAT bad, we're talking about a spell that can help you tackle higher level parties by itself and you get it automatically. Compared to other level 1 spells, it's one of the best level 1 spells around.
At low levels for a Cleric, another use of Command is almost always considerably better than casting CLW... a sleeping ogre is an ogre that can't hit you. A sleeping caster is a dead caster. Druids don't get Command though, but Avengers get Chromatic Orb, and direct damaging an enemy will end a fight sooner, meaning you take less damage. Entangle can be theoreticly useful, but by the time either your Sleep wand or spell isn't strong enough, you have Web anyways, and Web is so much better than Entangle. If Entangle didn't use up your casting for the round, sure, it'd be competetive, but the opportunity cost makes it not worth casting imho, unless we're talking before you can visit High Hedge, and there aren't many fights Entangle is useful for before that. Entangle Tarnesh? Still gonna Horror you. You prepared CLW? Too bad he can drop a lvl 1 character with MM, espcially a squishy. Healing can be handy, but you should use potions during battles, and after the battle, you can usually rest. Or if you're a Good Guy, you get 2 casts of CLW for free.
I do often like having as many people as possible have 1 cast of Slow Poison pretty much at all times, but just normal healing uses up slots that could be winning the fight sooner, and thus I find it inefficient.
After I soloed a Cleric and Cleric Thief through BG1, I really got a new appreciation of how much better shutting down an enemy is over healing. Command was cast so many times those playthroughs. Sorcerer was actually harder in many cases, even having Sleep and Web, though Spider Spawn really pushes things in their favour later.
@CaptRory the thing is though, just casting 3 Webs is better. The save is tougher, and saving doesn't guarantee escape. Mind you, webbing Sarevok's party might not make your playthrough as satisfying.
Notably, my position would probably change if I could target lightning bolts to save my life. I can't, though.
You are badly underestimating Chaos though. That is one nasty spell, and hard to avoid. Regarding getting Web, you're getting the best 2nd level spell hands down, fof a class thst normally has nothing useful in that slot.
Totemic Druids are solidly better than Vanilla or Shapeshifters I'd say, but Avengers are mechanically a fair bit stronger.
@CaptRory well, thats your choice. Besides, you don't need 3 casters to drop webs, though life is very easy if you prepare a sequencer with 2 Webs. Cast Greater Malison right after, and nobody is getting out of that pickle. Afaik, this isn't even an exploit really, this is how its supposed to work. You should play the way you enjoy though.
Chaos is more useful vs a much wider array of targets than Insect Plague. Thats why you might want to prepare Chaos, it can clear out combat-heavy groups with one cast. I got Tazok confused once, and Angelo killed Semaj while blasting Tazok, Tazok kill Angelo, and Sarevok killed Tazok.
Chromatic Orb isn't great, but as a first level Druid spell, its totally worth casting and preparing.
I'm not saying Totemics are bad, they just aren't as powerful as Avengers are if played to the best of their abilities.
The Fire Salamander form can pair nicely with the Firestorm spell, so that you're completely immune to the damage.
Just so everybody knows, I went ahead and went with the Totemic Druid who is almost level 5 and I'm currently at the Mines because the idea of a Spirit Animal is cool, but at the same time it's confusing and I want to try and understand these spirit animals. To me, it's a new challenge. I would've went with an Avenger but the shapeshifts were a bit obvious when it came to their uses.
As for the Totemic Druid, answer me this: I understand that the Spirit Bear is basically your in-game "Summon-It-When-You-Need-It" tank. But as far as the Wolf, the Lion, and the Snake go, what are their differences? The Lion is a bit tankier than the Wolf and the Snake isn't as tanky as the wolf, but they all seem to hit at the same rate and do just about the same amount of damage (Yes, I have already looked at the thread describing the different Spirits to me, but it was all clustered.)
Their abilities are especially good for the mid-end BG1 game (shapeshifting, access to level 5 spells, totemic summons)
However they tend to fade away in BG2: their combat abilities (from totemic summon or shapeshifting) become less and less useful so they progressively become pure spellcasters.
And in that role, while far from being useless, they are miles behind arcane casters.
That's where Snake and Wolf come in. Even if their (low) damage is blocked by the Skins, the Poison effects and the cold damage still get through and can still interrupt the spell. Snake poison ticks at damage PER SECOND, so if spells are interruptible, the Spirit Snake can usually get the job done if it gets in a hit. It also has the best AC, for what it's worth.
As for their offensive casting, while they are overall behind mages, they have several really fantastic spells that mages simply cannot match (Insect Plague, Creeping Doom, Nature's Beauty). Their main disadvantage, imo, is that their best spells have long casting times and they can't wear the Robe of Vecna. So I wouldn't go selling druids short.
Of course, in the end, *everything* is miles behind arcane casters. So I kind of do agree with that, I just have difficulty criticizing something on the grounds that it's not a mage.
A party with a druid in their group can (easily) take on pretty much any major encounter in BG2 the moment they exit Irenicus' dungeon and with some minor preparation, win - from Mencar Pebbecrusher's group to the Celestial Fury Group to Kangaax. And just like that, everyone in your party is suddenly geared enough to to take down powerful "boss" level enemies like dragons.
They retain their usefulness in late game primarily because of Nature's Beauty (this spell is so ridiculously OP it's laughable someone would actually say that druid spellcasting is "miles behind" anything), Energy Blades, Harm/Heal and the fact that they become the best healers in the game the moment they get Call Woodland Beings.