Non-wizard wizards...
Grum
Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
Strange title, I know. But it got your attention, right?
I have a question. Could someone tell me if I am interpreting this correctly?
In D&D, there are several ways to use magic, and the wizard class is just one of them.
(1) Bards. Sure, they cast spells. But is a bard really a special kind of sorceror? Let me explain. Their bard songs cause magical effects. They can heal wounds (war chant of the sith), they can make the recipient immune to spell effects (such as fear, confusion, etc), and they always work for all allies within range. Even if people have very different tastes in music, and even if someone would find a musician in a battle to be distracting. So is it the case that bard songs are magical in nature?
(2) Monks. Are they really wizards? As I see it, wizards take magical energy, use their body as a conduit, and then release it in a controlled manner. This is why in the black pits 2 the teleporting mage gets chunked when the prison wards don't let him release the energy. Given all of the special powers of monks, are they wizards who, rather than releasing magical energy in a controlled manner, internalize it and use it to power themselves?
These are people who can punch through steel, can run faster than any normal human, can become immune to diseases, normal weapons, etc. So is it true that they are in fact, a different kind of wizard?
(3) All non-caster classes. Fighters, thieves, etc. They start out as normal people. They can take one, maybe two or three, sword blows before they die. Pretty standard stuff, right? However, as they level up, they can take more and more punishment. To the point where one can take a direct hit from a dragon and get right back up. Or where several dozen arrows become an annoyance.
It is because of this, that I have my theory: In Faerun, magic is part of the world. Every living thing is infused with it.
Some classes directly learn how to shape it.
* Wizards learn how to actually see the world for it is, and to manipulate the energy.
* Monks are the same as wizards, only they draw magic into themselves and rather than release it, use it to strengthen themselves.
* Clerics/Druids learn how to communicate with the divine, and use their deities to shape magical energy.
Other classes represent people who, without training, use their special talents to use magic.
* Sorcerors are merely wizards who are naturally talented enough to not need training.
* Fighters and rogues are merely monks, who are talented enough to do some of what monks do without the training.
* Paladins and Rangers are a mixture of both.
And of course, the people who have the natural talent to do this are exceedingly rare. This is why there are so few people in Faerun who can reach high levels. Look at BG1 for example. Flaming fits mercenaries, amnian soldiers, gnolls, hobgoblins...they all hover in the lvl 1-3 range. Very, very few of them ever go past that. Commoners are even more squishy.
This makes me come to the conclusion that adventurers are people who have the natural talent to make use of the energy that infuses everything. It is what makes them special. It also means that when you get to the higher levels, even if you are a fighter, you are indeed practicing a certain brand of magic, even if you don't realize it.
Am I alone in thinking this way? Or is a figher just a fighter and I am overthinking this?
I have a question. Could someone tell me if I am interpreting this correctly?
In D&D, there are several ways to use magic, and the wizard class is just one of them.
(1) Bards. Sure, they cast spells. But is a bard really a special kind of sorceror? Let me explain. Their bard songs cause magical effects. They can heal wounds (war chant of the sith), they can make the recipient immune to spell effects (such as fear, confusion, etc), and they always work for all allies within range. Even if people have very different tastes in music, and even if someone would find a musician in a battle to be distracting. So is it the case that bard songs are magical in nature?
(2) Monks. Are they really wizards? As I see it, wizards take magical energy, use their body as a conduit, and then release it in a controlled manner. This is why in the black pits 2 the teleporting mage gets chunked when the prison wards don't let him release the energy. Given all of the special powers of monks, are they wizards who, rather than releasing magical energy in a controlled manner, internalize it and use it to power themselves?
These are people who can punch through steel, can run faster than any normal human, can become immune to diseases, normal weapons, etc. So is it true that they are in fact, a different kind of wizard?
(3) All non-caster classes. Fighters, thieves, etc. They start out as normal people. They can take one, maybe two or three, sword blows before they die. Pretty standard stuff, right? However, as they level up, they can take more and more punishment. To the point where one can take a direct hit from a dragon and get right back up. Or where several dozen arrows become an annoyance.
It is because of this, that I have my theory: In Faerun, magic is part of the world. Every living thing is infused with it.
Some classes directly learn how to shape it.
* Wizards learn how to actually see the world for it is, and to manipulate the energy.
* Monks are the same as wizards, only they draw magic into themselves and rather than release it, use it to strengthen themselves.
* Clerics/Druids learn how to communicate with the divine, and use their deities to shape magical energy.
Other classes represent people who, without training, use their special talents to use magic.
* Sorcerors are merely wizards who are naturally talented enough to not need training.
* Fighters and rogues are merely monks, who are talented enough to do some of what monks do without the training.
* Paladins and Rangers are a mixture of both.
And of course, the people who have the natural talent to do this are exceedingly rare. This is why there are so few people in Faerun who can reach high levels. Look at BG1 for example. Flaming fits mercenaries, amnian soldiers, gnolls, hobgoblins...they all hover in the lvl 1-3 range. Very, very few of them ever go past that. Commoners are even more squishy.
This makes me come to the conclusion that adventurers are people who have the natural talent to make use of the energy that infuses everything. It is what makes them special. It also means that when you get to the higher levels, even if you are a fighter, you are indeed practicing a certain brand of magic, even if you don't realize it.
Am I alone in thinking this way? Or is a figher just a fighter and I am overthinking this?
12
Comments
Fighters and Rogues, I wouldn't classify as being anything like a Monk. Sure, they both go through harsh training, but both trainings are different. Monks train their mind, body and soul, and Fighters train their sword arms. Rogues train in the art of stealth and thievery and have no need for Strength as long as they have the speed and required force to slip a dagger under your armor.
While I do like your opinions on this, I think you're overthinking it into more of a realistic vision. In that direction, yes, I believe that every human being in the Forgotten Realms series has some form of magic they're born with, it's just up to them whether or not they want to take control of that and learn.
Sure, Sun Soul and Dark Moon monks certainly do. But in BG, the description says:
"Monks are warriors who pursues perfection through contemplation as well as action. They are versatile fighters, especially skilled in combat without armor or weapons. Though monks cannot cast spells, they have a unique magic of their own: they channel a subtle energy, called ki, which allows them to perform amazing feats."
And for warriors, you can train all you want with swords and daggers...but there comes a point where you reach superhuman levels and it needs to be explained.
Example: Thief
They reach a point where, with enough levels, they can sneak around unseen in daylight, out doors, with aware enemies.
Example: Bounty Hunter
Their high level traps cause actual spell effects!
Example: Warrior
I've had a dwarven warrior walk up to a dragon by himself and kill it.
Example: Barbarian
In splint armor, carrying a great sword, with a full pack of gear on, he will run faster than the world's fastest sprinter. And he will do it for great lengths of time without being winded. He can also make himself immune to magical effects through the sheer force of anger...which can be called upon at will.
These are all things that are completely and utterly out of the realm of possibilities. However, as you put it, they don't actually *train* their innate abilities. Which means that a warrior will never train himself to be immune to normal weapons. A thief will never be able to gather magical energy into his fist and do 1d20 damage with it.
So what I come to is this:
For adventurers, there are two tracks: You can make a conscious effort to use your natural talents, and can come to amazing conclusions. You can literally reshape reality at will! Or you can do what you want to do, and not bother with it. But that same power will still be there. You'll be tougher, stronger, sneakier, than any mortal man could ever hope to be. But it won't be a conscious decision and without 'caster' levels, you'll never be able to choose how it manifests.
Bards in later versions tend to be like sorcerers in that the majority of the time have some form of magical creature as an ancestor which is why they have magical abilities. Their song is similar to a morale booster in militaries where it unifies the people fighting with the tones they play giving different effects such as a strong and powerful sound to make them fight harder.
Fighter classes gaining more hp is that they become more and more use to the punishment and pain their bodies endure so it's less likely to incapacitate them, but depending on the GM certain rolls or damage ranges can cause crippling, scars, or instant death.
There is no explanation for the magics that get involved when it comes to the Forgotten Realms series. We don't know how Magic is implemented or anything. Jon Irenicus? Nobody even knew who he was yet he was the most powerful mage you encounter through the entire series, ten fold the power of Sarevok but the opposite reputation of Elminster, who CHARNAME declared as the man everybody in the realms knew of. We don't even know how he gained his power, we don't know much about him at all. He's as mysterious as the source of his power and we have no idea why. We don't even know where the magic COMES from, yet he's killing people with the flick of his fingers with it (No saving throws, either! Instant chunking!).
While your topic is a huge opportunity for people to throw opinions and theories everywhere, I don't think you'll ever find a complete answer for it. Fighters could have magic, yes. Mages could become amazing 2-handers with some training. Paladins could give up their dieties and start hurling fireballs through the air. While I believe thats possible, I don't believe you'll find a legit answer.
I think that the designers meant for the higher level non-mage abilities to be a reflection of what special snowflakes PCs are. They are like the mythological heroes of old, able to slay dragons before breakfast, and wrestle titans to their knees. Beyond other mere mortals, but not necessarily magical.
I like your idea though, and don't see why it couldn't be a reason for the amazing feats heroes are capable of accomplishing.
If you define magic as any otherworldly (in relation to ours) force that allows someone to perform feats that would normally be impossible (in our world) then yes, magic -is- something that is intrinsic to perhaps everything in the D&D universe. It also goes by different names (super strength/dex/etc, high/epic levels like in the case of fighters and thieves, psionics, ki or monk energy, arcane magic, divine magic - anything can become a god, iirc, some of the D&D gods were once mortals/undead/semi-sentient beings/ideas/a place, etc) and each type follows different rules.
I was always under the assumption 100 hit points didn't reflect that that character could be socked in the head with a morning star 20 times, but that his battle experience allowed him to dodge, deflect, and otherwise avoid or minimize damage from enemy attacks. At the end of the day only a couple solid hits will still kill him but the hit points is just an effective way to quantify it for gaming purposes.
Early spell descriptions for arcane magic often had material components which were consumed in the spell while divine spells were granted by a patron deity and sorcerers didn't exist in 1st ed. Frankly I consider 1st edition canon and anything past that just adds a lot of fan fiction.
He can be worn down eventually and the killing blow will come, be it a slice through the throat or a crushing blow to the skull, or just plain ol sword to the gut. If he is immobilised or totally defenseless, he can be slain just like another guy.
Imagine the high level fighter tied up to an altar for sacrifice. The sacrificial dagger does 1d6 damage in combat, and the fighter has 100 hp. The dark priest does not stab him repeatedly 20 or so times. He just kills him like he does any other guy. (throat slicing or carving up the heart, among the favourites)
In bg games, being held/paralysed/stunned is so common it would be overkill to allow those to die in one hit. In pnp, if there is no actual combat going, helpless can be slain easily with the right tools. In combat pnp, I would rule such characters take maximum damage possible, and if the intent was to kill in one hit, they must make a save vs death or system shock roll to survive.
The BG series, and I suppose D&D, is not like that. A high level warrior could wade through 100 goblins without breaking a sweat. I am doing a solo run of Icewind Dale with a ranger/cleric. He has just reached levels 30/30. To say that nothing scares him would be an understatement. He's already solo'd a dragon (who was backed up by a small horde of fishmen) as well as a daemoness with an army of lizardmen. In the BG series, your party literally walks into an enemy army (an actual army) and steamrolls it so easily that it isn't funny.
I am all for skill and the like...but when it is 1v100, skill doesn't matter. You are going to die. But that isn't the case. Which means, to me at least, that there is something more than skill there.
When you gain an level and you get -1 THACO, that to me shows an increase in skill. When you level up, and get a proficiency point to place, that shows skill. However, mixed in with that skill is a whole heck of alot of superhuman strength which just can't be explained by someone who is really good at fighting.
And as a final argument: high level mages bend reality to their will. Fire materializes out of thin air. They make your blood boil. They control your mind, they summon demons, they make themselves immune to everything. They can even imprison you in a different plane. However, fighters can and do go toe-to-toe with them. Weathering a storm of magic which you can't dodge, can't parry, and have no education as to how it works or how to counter it....that speaks to me of someone who is beyond a mere mortal.
To quote @kcwise, they are like mythological heroes.
@greenwyvern I assume you are talking about game mechanics rather than actual mechanics which is the game was simplified of not needing components for things such as spells or traps where as actual mechanics would require the materials to make the traps.
Anyhow, I'm sorry. My knowledge of this kind of stuff is fairly limited.
Let's all just say it's the work of the "Beam God"... or something...
Again, I do not recall trap setting in 1st ed D&D and this is possibly why, though a set of thieving tools was pretty much standard issue for thief character generation if you wanted to use any of your lock picking abilities. In the original BG before any patches there was no trap limit. One should assume that a thief carries a set of lock picking tools and likely would carry around any tools or materials needed to create traps. The daily limit should be RP'd as this is all the trap materials he/she could carry and they are re-supplied through scavenging or shopping or crafting while resting.
Also the physical components to spells served as a limiting factor in P&P. IIRC the spell Fireball required a pinch of sulfur and some bat guano in AD&D. Hell I can buy that today at a gardening supply store. Now an imprisonment spell (IIRC) requires the destruction of a perfect gem worth 10,000GP or somesuch. These were written into canon D&D to leave mages with the potential to be incredibly powerful, but not game breaking without the approval of the GM. Sure you could cast an obscenely powerful spell, but it might take a weekend's worth of campaigning to just gather up the spell components. Or of course if casting the spell was critical to a campaign it could be more easily given/stolen/found.
It was even suggested in the original 1st edition books that a good campaign could be the party being hired by a powerful mage to obtain the scales of a dragon, venom from a basilisk, dirt from a mummy's tomb, etc. The party you can stone 2 flesh in ToB is a total homage to this.
Many of these things can be handled nicely by a good GM but not so much by a 15 year old game script. I would say that things like "time trap" exist in the game ONLY so that you'll have any reason to play a non-mage. The fact that mage spells can be cast without rare and exotic material gathering and acquisition just serve to make a mage worth playing... in short some compromises to realism and D&D rules had to be made for a fun and balanced video game.