What is a Paladin?
Vallmyr
Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
So, I'm not asking for the obvious, "Oh, they're holy knights, blah blah blah."
No, I mean what is the difference between a Paladin and a Cleric/Fighter? I always felt the Paladin was a redundant class when multiclassing is a core part of the system.
I get in settings/games like Warcraft where by lore they are priests that took up arms and there is no multiclassing but D&D I feel as though Cleric/Fighter fills the trope nicely already.
So, I feel like the reasons for a Paladin's existence must be a lore reason. To be exclusive to humans (except Dorn), this must mean a Paladin is specifically a human type of Cleric/Fighter that receives different training.
I get the Paladin subclasses such as the Inquisitor that is more of a soldier that hunts out heretical mages and such, but the base class and Blackguards feel. . .uneeded?
I love Paladins and Blackguards to death but a Holy Cleric/Fighter and an Unholy Cleric/Fighter seems to fit the trope just the same.
Hell, even normal Clerics are plate wearing, warhammer and shield, face smashers.
So, what is a Paladin and why is it different than a Cleric/Fighter?
No, I mean what is the difference between a Paladin and a Cleric/Fighter? I always felt the Paladin was a redundant class when multiclassing is a core part of the system.
I get in settings/games like Warcraft where by lore they are priests that took up arms and there is no multiclassing but D&D I feel as though Cleric/Fighter fills the trope nicely already.
So, I feel like the reasons for a Paladin's existence must be a lore reason. To be exclusive to humans (except Dorn), this must mean a Paladin is specifically a human type of Cleric/Fighter that receives different training.
I get the Paladin subclasses such as the Inquisitor that is more of a soldier that hunts out heretical mages and such, but the base class and Blackguards feel. . .uneeded?
I love Paladins and Blackguards to death but a Holy Cleric/Fighter and an Unholy Cleric/Fighter seems to fit the trope just the same.
Hell, even normal Clerics are plate wearing, warhammer and shield, face smashers.
So, what is a Paladin and why is it different than a Cleric/Fighter?
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EDIT: I actually think the implementation in game is wrong because Ajantis, Keldorn, any paladin PC & (technically) Anomen should be naturally immune to panic and fear otherwise they (should) automatically become fallen.
Mechanically, in BG at least, the Paladin is really closer to a fighter than a cleric... broader weapon selection, and better THAC0 advancement... with a few conditional boosts to represent their divine grace.
Conceptually, for me a Paladin is a particular god's "ideal"... an example to the rest of the sentient world... an already potent warrior who receives their divine backing as a result of who and what they innately are.
Whilst a cleric is more scholarly, and through their studies they find ways to please their god and so gain the benefits...
So (with very little evidence), the Paladin's advancement is more innate or "gifted" whilst the Cleric's progression is "learned".
(Perhaps there is scope to demonstrate this through the Paladin's lack of a "casting" attribute?)
Can't really back much of this up, but its how I personally make sense of it.
Paladins are also a lot more restricted as far as how they live. For instance they are expected to obtain no more than a modest degree of wealth (enough to live a modest life). There are other things like the requirement that all their hirings must be lawful-good, and their reluctance to work with chaotic good and neutral characters. Clerics will their own deity specific restrictions but I don't think they generally have quite the same degree of restrictions placed on who they can work with, how much wealth they can acquire, etc.
A Paladin is usually one of the highest ranks in Military you can achieve, but only through certain requirements. Paladins have a huge amount of respect for, probably around the amount of a Wizard. Paladins also have a huge amount of dedication when it comes to their order, unlike normal Fighters who can just pick up a sword and swing it. Like the Cleric/Priest or whatever you wish to call them, Paladins MUST be in touch with their God. They must have no disbelief, know the in's and out's, and even greater than that, you MUST be one of the purist of heart. There's a reason you can only be Good if you choose to be a Paladin. Blackguards are the opposite...Sort of. Instead of being dedicated to a god, they submit to a demon and the demon grants them strength so that they may bring havoc upon the world, and that is why you can only be an evil alignment when going with the Blackguard. Cleric/Fighters are different than them. While Clerics are, for sure, dedicated to their God, anybody can become a Cleric, as well as how anybody can become a fighter. Just be a Cleric and know how to work a sword. You don't need to be pure of heart, you can be as evil as you want to be and still be a Cleric under Talos, or Helm or Lythander. It doesn't matter.
Hope that helps.
A cleric represents his/her god, clerics are restricted to alignment by only the god they serve. A cleric of Bhaal would be a murdering, raping, pillaging destroyer dedicated to murder. What @CaeDares didn't mention, was that Blackguards also serve evil gods.
In RPG, a Paladin is a warrior who strictly follows a lawful good deity. They aren't priests, and were not trained to be one, in fact, a paladin is more likely to fight crusades and lead groups of adventurers rather than perform church duties.
DnD clerics, on the other hand, were based on Teutonic Knights, who weren't necessarily nobles.They were an order of warrior/monks who fought in the crusades and also inside European territory. They were lawful, but not necessarily lawful good.
I mentioned them submitting to Demons because that's what Dorn in BGEE reveals, as well as the enemy you face at the end of his questline. While it is true they worship "evil" deities, I don't necessarily see any Deity as "evil". Each one has it's own cause, it's just how the believer wants to deliver to their god. All Gods / Deities are approved of by Ao the Overseer, so I'm sure there isn't such thing as an "evil" deity, just evil people who take certain Deities the wrong way.
Have you not played ToB? The final boss was a High Priestess of Bhaal before the Time of Troubles, or aka Godswar. I would put a spoiler alert on this if I knew how..
And saying that there are no evil gods in Forgotten Realms is just lunacy. Loviatar, The Maiden of Pain. Bane, the deity of tyranny, fear and hatred. Talos, the deity of storms and destruction. Malar, the Beastlord.
I don't think it gets more evil than that XD
Unless you're not referring to evil as the physical and magical manisfestations within the universe but the "concept of evil" instead.
Also,
So I guess Paladins are to be Paragon type Heroes of Humans?
Is it that other races don't believe in such an ideal so they cannot become Paladins?
So a Dwarf Fighter/Cleric serves the same function as a Human Paladin, just the Dwarf is in service of his deity but the Paladin is in service of "goodness and human spirit?"
In which Mazzy is a halfling "paladin" because she represents Halfling spirit and goodness? XD
Edit: I kind of feel like an ass now because it seems everyone jumped on him about the Gods not being evil thing <_< >_>
Sorry if I was redundant and such to everyone else
Ao isn't good. He is decidedly neutral, and the creation of the gods and the Tablets of Fate was to make sure that a distinct balance was upheald in the multiverse. For there to be Good there must then be an equal amount of Evil and all that.
There are definitely evil deities in the Forgotten Realms. Ghaunadaur, for example, requires his clergy to coerce intelligent sentient beings to sacrifice themselves to him, and barring that encourages them to use enchantment magic to force people to kill themselves in Ghaunadaur's name or allow themselves to be sacrificed in his name. He is the chaotically evil deity of Oozes, slimes, jellies, outcasts, ropers, and rebels. His goal is to destroy all other deities and convert all life to worshipping him so that one day they may all sacrificed themselves in his name. There isn't much to misinterperet there, he is a power hungry god that takes great joy (in fact bases his entire worship around) human sacrifices. I'm sure he has his reasons to want to do this (other than because he is EVIL) but that doesn't make him any less evil.
Edit: Bhaal was slain by Cyric using Godsbane during the Avatar Crisis or Time of Troubles when the tablets of fate were stolen so Ao forced all of the deities to take on a mortal form and walk the face of Toril. This gave them a small amount of fragility and weakness, which Cyric was able to exploit by killing Bhaal when they fought. Bhaal wasn't any less of a god than any of the gods at that time (besides Helm who wasn't forced to Toril) and he was definitely a diety before that.
Edit edit: Clerics of Bhaal were known as Deathstalkers of Bhaal.
A Paladin might worship a deity but is not defined by his deity, he's defined by Good.
Now where does Lawful fit in? I guess it's because it's an "Order" as opposed to an individual thing and so it's intrinsically lawful?
A paladin is there to fight for their god. They have a moral code and need high Charisma to make their god look upright, but their main purpose is to fight.
So, both serve gods. But a cleric is for teaching religion and doing magic stuff. A paladin is for punching people in the face.
Think if it as one of the first fighter "kits".... back before we had kits. It was in 1st ED a very powerful class so it had many stat minimums and you were supposed to basically play a complete goody-two-shoes or face losing your powers. As someone else mentioned they were forced to give away most of their loot (beyond equipment and basic necessity).
In all my P&P games you had to play them as a super-do-gooder almost to absurdity to keep their powers. The character demanded some real role playing to really do right. I'm not sure if I really agree with the whole anti-paladin thing being possible though, the way I imagine things working that just doesn't seem appropriate.... like you're so pure in your evil-ness you get special powers? Why doesn't someone like Neb get those powers then, or Severok? What's the tradeoff/alignment check? If they go a week without being a complete dick to somebody they lose their powers? Seems like you'd get to have your cake and eat it too.
I'm sorry but where do you get all this stuff? Certainly not from DnD or Forgotten Realms lore.
1) You cannot be an evil Cleric of a good deity. Period. And vice versa. In the books it says what alignments the Clerics have to be to worship each deity.
2) Bhaal was a pure god. A ton of gods died during the Time of Troubles. Mystra, Bane, Bhaal among others.
Because they were turned mortal by Ao.
Even if they hadn't turned into mortals, they can still be killed by other gods.
3) There are evil gods. That's a fact. In ADnD books, Bhaal is Lawful Evil. Bane is Lawful Evil, Myrkul is Neutral Evil, Talos is Chaotic Evil. It says so plainly.
4) Ao the Overgod is above all gods. He is True Neutral. He doesn't care if one deity is Lawful Good and the other is Chaotic Evil. He only cares that the gods don't rule mortals as kings and do their part.
5) Paladins are paragons of Law and Good. If they become Neutral Good they fall, if they become Lawful Neutral, they fall.
While they have to worship deities to get their spells, they are paragons of those values. And that is absolute.
They are not just generic templar knights. They are champions of law and good and destroyers of evil.
While Clerics are the voice of the deity, Paladins are the sword of Lawful and Good deities.
Also, OP, don't judge a class based on BG's implementation. Fighter/Clerics are generic militant priests.
Paladins are beacons of hope. It's mainly a roleplaying reason but it's a roleplaying game.
Just like Druids aren't just True Neutral Clerics that turn into animals. They are protectors of nature and balance.
Also Blackguards come from 3E. They don't exist in ADnD. Same with Sorcerer, Monk and Shadowdancer.
Blackguards can worship evil deities and demons. Though you have to worship a deity to get divine spells.
Blackguard is the path a Fallen Paladin can take in 3E, when they don't care or want to atone.
They are basically Paladins going to the Dark Side, though not always.
I was thinking Paladin's as Militant priests but we already have militant priests called Clerics (and I imagine Cleric/Fighters and Clerics of Tempus are an extreme on the militant side).
I'm currently playing an CE Anti-Paladin in my IRL Pathfinder group and it definitely mechanically feels different than a Fighter/Cleric but I imagine I'd RP it the same.
On the other hand, a neutral farmer who struck a deal with a charming succubus for one night of passion, even if he did not know the exact terms, will be condemned to hell for eternity. Night hags also turn evil and greedy people souls into larvae which can be used to produce lemures, and lemures can get promotion by eating each other and can climb the social ladder of devils/demons through torture, pain and terror. Yeah it is a weird and convoluted system, but what did you expect?
1st Edition: They are merely mounted knights, cavaliers if you will they have bonuses to mounted combat, no special affiliation to a god, or order.
2nd Edition: They are the epitome of what the "human" ideal is for a knight example given in the handbook is Lancelot, and Charlemane's 12 paladins, but still no divine purpose or god following. Here they receive their future incarnations special abilities such as immunity to disease, detecting evil, being of lawful good alignment, and access to a holy sword.
2nd Edition Churches manual: This is what turns paladins into the pitiful church worshiping guards that we all know and love. Penalties for being anything but a god worshipper, church stipends, champion of a specific god rather than champion of humanity, etc.
3rd Edition: Cements what all paladins have become and makes playing one difficult and extremely mary sueish.
Fight/clerics are merely clerics that have taken up arms and focus on martial training, or fighters/warriors that turned to worship.
"Many dervishes are mendicant ascetics who have taken a vow of poverty. The main reason they beg is to learn humility, but Dervishes are prohibited to beg for their own good. They have to give the collected money to other poor people."
-wikipedia article on dervishes
Paladin: Holy warrior whose power is not directly tied to any god. A paladin can fall from falling the tenants of a deity, especially a lawful neutral one.
So a paladin can change deities or ignore his chosen deity ("No, Helm. I will not put duty over mercy."). Clerics cannot.
Legit?