@Yannir I know what a dervish is it's why my name is one. They are also entertainers, or in more recent terms refer to magic the gathering, small twisters, as well as prestige class.
Paladins like Clerics are undead hating scumbags who should be scoured from the face of Toril with a brillo pad.
Lets face it. We are talking two sides of a bad penny here... But if you need to know...
Clerics are scholars. They are bestowed powers by their chosen deities because they have learnt, followed and practised the tenants of their faith. Years of dedication and ritual must be adhered too. They follow a path that they believe their God has sent them upon. Always stopping to confer and look for omens and signs left by their God to direct them. Wisdom is important to the cleric.
Paladins are leaders. They are men of action, and scholarly pursuits do not interest them. They follow their own moral compass and whilst they can become champions of their chosen deities through their actions, they can quickly lose this status as well. Charisma then is important, not only to assure themselves but others that their actions are worthy.
To summarise.
Clerics unite the faithful through shared traditions and rituals. Paladins lead the faithful through decisive action and championing their faiths.
I think in many ways the paladin is a weapon. Not only are they taught that any deviation from the rightful path will cause them to fall, they are kept away from any temptation or bad influences no talking with chaotic or evil people, no possessions basically nothing to distract them from their mission or even to let them know there are options. A paladin is there to smite evil and duty is there only reward
Let's also not forget there is no negative to killing as a paladin so long as he justifies it with they aren't of a good race, or he saw them as harmful/evil.
Judging by the way they are often played Paladins are apparently fantasy world equivalents of Dexter, who travel around with permanent detect evil turned on, slaughtering anything that glows red.
Fighter Clerics are clerics with anger management issues.
IIRC, Paladins were training to be Fighters, when they got a stick stuck in their butt.
Joking aside, Paladins were originally an upgrade for Fighters that reached high enough levels and were super good, granting them cleric abilities. Thats in the ancient High Level handbook. It was a less byzantine alternative to a Bard back then, though nothing since has reached that level of weird, so take that as you will. Making it a standard class imho is the wrong choice, its like having a lvl 1 Ninja. Yeah, you COULD make them standard classes from lvl 1, but its a bit weird. In 3.5 Unearthed Arcana made a prestige classes for the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard. Its a really solid idea, though all 3 end up being better casters. Rangers benefit the least, as you couldn't dumpstat Dex to get Two Weapon Fighting for free with low dex, but they cast Druid spells, so its a good trade, and much better RP-wise.
Anyways, a Paladin is supposed to be a paragon of Goodness, Order, Justice and Love (filial you perv!). They sre distinctly LESS tied to the dogmas of their God than a cleric, but most offend neither their patron, nor Code of Conduct. As an easy example, consider a Paladin of Helm or Hoar... neither is likely to fully embrace every tennet of their faith, or they will fall. Still, they can't go against their God in any substantial way.
And so the Blackguard/Anti-paladin from 3.5/Pathfinder I suppose is the opposite? They represent the evil within the hearts of men/elves/dwarves/half-orcs/etc?
I think that any game that introduces a Paladin as a base class should have its opposite as well. This is actually my primary reason to buy the Enhanced Editions though I owned the original is the Blackguard.
Blackguards are super cool, yo. I feel like they should be Chaotic Evil though to represent their actual opposite-ness of the Paladin.
Edit: I'm actually glad that the DM's guide for 5th edition has an evil-type Paladin in it along with Death Domain Clerics.
Now if only they'd properly label Cure spells as necromancy spells. . .
/houserules that Positive and Negative energy use are both Necromancy-type spells.
At least until you realise it's pronounced blaggard and just means "rude, impolite person".
Which would be a bit odd, as English used to be pretty strictly 'sounds exactly like its spelled', mainly because the big rule of spelling in English used to be 'spell it like it sounds'. I read on I think Dictionary.com that blackguard was a slightly demeaning term for cooking staff, presumeably in the army. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blackguard?s=t
I was pretty close. Note, it mentions 3 correct pronunciations.
@FinneousPJ well, slightly more recently, but not much. Shakespear spelled his name many, many ways for example.
It was standars mind you to be internally consistent though, so if you spelled a word one way in a text, you should continue to spell it that way. English is a funny language, as the well to do tended to write in Latin and French, so lack of formality was more tolerated.
@Dreadkhan - I don't think English has been spelled "the way it's pronounced" since the days of the Anglo-Saxon alphabet of around 1000 ad or so. Not to mention that since time changes how both words and individual letters are pronounced such a rule would be obsolete within a hundred years anyway.
@DreadKhan Thought as much. Finnish is interesting, because our written language as we use today was born as late as the 19th century, so in Finnish, things do sound exactly as they're spelled The problem is spoken language evolves faster than written language, so eventually that is likely change.
@Dreadkhan - I don't think English has been spelled "the way it's pronounced" since the days of the Anglo-Saxon alphabet of around 1000 ad or so. Not to mention that since time changes how both words and individual letters are pronounced such a rule would be obsolete within a hundred years anyway.
Have you read much Middle English? Everything is pronounced pretty much as it is written, ie mouse = moose. Love was definately pronounced as spelled, as it was used in rhyming schemes. If you read Gawain and the Green Knight, or Piers Plowman, the writting is pretty incomprehensible at first, so reading out loud is a tactic used to help students be able to figure the stuff out. Its really wild, or wyld. I did several classes of Middle English at university. You are right some pronunciations are not the same as they were, so a British English speaker with any accent will actually be worse at pronouncing than someone from Canada (especially the prarie provinces) or certain parts of the US, as English in the UK has changed more. *shrug* Linguistics are really interesting.
@FinneousPJ Yeah, that will change over time. Finland is a mighty peculiar bit of history though, very impressive accomplishments for its population.
If you think mouse and moose should be pronounced anything like the other in any direction, then clearly we have very different groundpoints. If I were to spell mouse as it sounds, I'd spell it "maus".
I am referring to how Chaucer would pronounce 'mouse'... moose are a New World animal, and hint, the name just might be a bit of a joke, as they are truly massive animals. 'maus' would be a more like German, but I never studied old German, mostly English, so I don't have the foggiest how it might have been pronounced.
For the record, the rule in English is that if there are two vowels together, you make the first vowel 'long', which sounds like the vowels name. Its an old rule. Hence, mouse and moose would sound the same.
Knight = ka-nicht, and is indeed very Germanic. Knife = ka-niff-eh, with the 'eh' being non-emphasized.
I never really thought that cleric/fighters were that similar to paladins mechanically. Paladins don't even get spells until higher levels, and most of their bonuses come through saving throws and special abilities.
Anomen aside, I think they are as distinct from fighter/clerics as monks are from fighters who use their fists.
I never really thought that cleric/fighters were that similar to paladins mechanically. Paladins don't even get spells until higher levels, and most of their bonuses come through saving throws and special abilities.
Anomen aside, I think they are as distinct from fighter/clerics as monks are from fighters who use their fists.
The Paladin is more than a man, more than a warrior, for his body is a conduit for the divine power that radiates from the highest spheres of the highest heavens of the multiverse. The Paladin is nothing less than the personification of righteous thought, word, and deed honed into a living weapon against evil. The Paladin is the steel that is plunged into the heart of darkness. The Paladin is the resounding thunder that answers the taunts of the wicked, the blinding truth that sears away the lies of darkness. The Paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
The Paladin knows that in the multiverse there is only good and evil, only light and darkness, only truth and lies, and he has made his choice which to serve. The Paladin abandons the mortal frailties of doubt and fear and compromise, thrown away his selfish pride and embraced a purity of purpose that will seem like utter madness to lesser men. When others are weak, the Paladin is strong. When others are afraid, the Paladin is brave. When others are cruel, the Paladin is kind. When others are unsure, the Paladin is certain. When others are corrupted, the Paladin is chaste.
The Paladin is the champion that wages a war transcending the borders of kingdoms, continents, and planes of reality. When the devils of Baator come with their honeyed words and contracts of slavery, with their lies of moral relativism and chains of false guilt, the Paladin is the only being in the Prime Material plane that can truly stand forth to wipe the look of smug victory from their ugly faces. When the hordes of Tanar'ri threaten to spill forth and destroy, devour and defile all that is held sacred in the Prime Material plane, the Paladin charges atop his steed headlong at their gibbering hordes with sword held high. The Paladin stirs courage and rallies the armies of men to fight evil made manifest, and the wicked fear him, for there is no black arrow they can fire that will pierce his shield of utter devotion. When other men quake and wail and plead with the Gods to deliver them from their moment of doubt and fear, the Paladin shouts his praise to the heavens, because he was born for this moment.
You have not known the face of true evil. You only know the concept of evil as an abstraction, a thing only represented by men or admonished against by priests, or even a thing that does not exist at all...but it does. You have not yet seen its rictus, jagged grin of delight in your suffering and the suffering of all those you love. But a time may come when you do, and you will realize in that moment how utterly, terrifyingly inadequate you are in the face of true evil. You will be naked and mute and paralyzed, staring into the void of a force that only knows hunger. You will be drowning in lightless depths of black ink and be utterly without hope as you are swallowed by the abyss.
The Paladin is the only hand that could reach down and draw you back out again.
The Paladin is more than a man, more than a warrior, for his body is a conduit for the divine power that radiates from the highest spheres of the highest heavens of the multiverse. The Paladin is nothing less than the personification of righteous thought, word, and deed honed into a living weapon against evil. The Paladin is the steel that is plunged into the heart of darkness. The Paladin is the resounding thunder that answers the taunts of the wicked, the blinding truth that sears away the lies of darkness. The Paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
The Paladin knows that in the multiverse there is only good and evil, only light and darkness, only truth and lies, and he has made his choice which to serve. The Paladin abandons the mortal frailties of doubt and fear and compromise, thrown away his selfish pride and embraced a purity of purpose that will seem like utter madness to lesser men. When others are weak, the Paladin is strong. When others are afraid, the Paladin is brave. When others are cruel, the Paladin is kind. When others are unsure, the Paladin is certain. When others are corrupted, the Paladin is chaste.
The Paladin is the champion that wages a war transcending the borders of kingdoms, continents, and planes of reality. When the devils of Baator come with their honeyed words and contracts of slavery, with their lies of moral relativism and chains of false guilt, the Paladin is the only being in the Prime Material plane that can truly stand forth to wipe the look of smug victory from their ugly faces. When the hordes of Tanar'ri threaten to spill forth and destroy, devour and defile all that is held sacred in the Prime Material plane, the Paladin charges atop his steed headlong at their gibbering hordes with sword held high. The Paladin stirs courage and rallies the armies of men to fight evil made manifest, and the wicked fear him, for there is no black arrow they can fire that will pierce his shield of utter devotion. When other men quake and wail and plead with the Gods to deliver them from their moment of doubt and fear, the Paladin shouts his praise to the heavens, because he was born for this moment.
You have not known the face of true evil. You only know the concept of evil as an abstraction, a thing only represented by men or admonished against by priests, or even a thing that does not exist at all...but it does. You have not yet seen its rictus, jagged grin of delight in your suffering and the suffering of all those you love. But a time may come when you do, and you will realize in that moment how utterly, terrifyingly inadequate you are in the face of true evil. You will be naked and mute and paralyzed, staring into the void of a force that only knows hunger. You will be drowning in lightless depths of black ink and be utterly without hope as you are swallowed by the abyss.
The Paladin is the only hand that could reach down and draw you back out again.
This. Best Answer in all of ever! /claps ecstatically
Almost makes me want to stop maining a Necromancer and become a Paladin. . . Almost.
Clerics/fighter: Holy warrior who gains power from his God
Paladin: Holy warrior whose power is not directly tied to any god. A paladin can fall from falling the tenants of a deity, especially a lawful neutral one.
So a paladin can change deities or ignore his chosen deity ("No, Helm. I will not put duty over mercy."). Clerics cannot.
Legit?
Not in the Forgotten Realms. In the Forgotten Realms, divine power comes directly from the patron deity.
Now, you could switch deities and regain your paladin bonuses, but in the case you mentioned, the paladin would lose the ability to cast spells, lay on hands, protect from evil, detect evil, until they atoned/found a new patron (maybe both). Fighting abilities would remain
I guess I have always thought of paladins as the concept of the chivalric knight ideal of the romances such as Arthur and the Knights of the Road table, the dedication to protect the people, aid and defend the cause of those in need, the poor, injured and the innocent. Those to defend those without power to make sure they have and dealt with justly and aid defend the oppressed and the suffering and so on, dedicating their skill, arms and life to the good of others, not perfect people but knights how set themselves to chivalry, honour and justice, setting mercy over the sword, keeping peace rather than seeking war, trying to discern where the right lay and upholding it to both end, means and conduct and behaviour no matter the opposition or legality or authority against it, and to behave life orientated in a chivalric manner. Often characters facing or being confronted with flaws or failing during a quest and learning to overcome or live with it, gaining wisdom and humility.
Arthur learning what it is to be a good king, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and the test of chivalric honour when under the care of what turned out to be the Green Knight's wife, while overshadowed by keeping a commitment that he was sure would result in his death in order to keep his word of honour and of the Round Table. Of Lancelot, the Fisher King, Perceval, Galahad and the Grail quest in both earlier and later tellings such the Excalibur movie, the Prince Valiant cartoon series for those who remember it from their childhood. Figures with a mystic aura as knights dedicated to the Good, anointed champions equipped to face the most terrible evils and threats and give their lives to save, protect and right injustice. Whose strength comes from virtue, honour, justice and mercy rather then just their steel and allowing them to face down the most inhuman and demonic of evil undaunted. Aragorn becoming King is also this kind of character type (through it mixes with the Ranger though there is continuity between the roles), Faramir and Boromir at the end to).
And it's this adapted to the DnD setting with abilities to suit it, including the limited priest related abilities, those dedicated to path and calling of being the protectors of the people and the champions of those in need particularly when they have none. Whose devotion to to the path of virtue and service and protection (to the chivalric ideal) is the key and strength to their mystic abilities that mark them out from fighter concept or a fighter-cleric which would be a full warrior-priest dedicated to the cause of a god. There are overlaps but also I think quite central differences in the role's idea.
To the extent the role continues on the Arthurian knight idea it is a really interesting and compelling concept and offers a range of character types to play. But I always approach alignment as as a general description of outlook and mindset (or range of mindsets) that like attributes is part of a description of that character rather than an heavy-handed external straight-jacket on dictating actions. A paladin should be a character and not a alignment on legs, the lawful stupid parody. Through it is interesting to play a paladin starting out arrogant and a bit self-righteousness who has to learn humility, wisdom and understanding the hard way, and find the importance of charity, mercy and compassion in the complex and complicated situations they then find themselves in.
The Paladin is more than a man, more than a warrior, for his body is a conduit for the divine power that radiates from the highest spheres of the highest heavens of the multiverse. The Paladin is nothing less than the personification of righteous thought, word, and deed honed into a living weapon against evil. The Paladin is the steel that is plunged into the heart of darkness. The Paladin is the resounding thunder that answers the taunts of the wicked, the blinding truth that sears away the lies of darkness. The Paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
The Paladin knows that in the multiverse there is only good and evil, only light and darkness, only truth and lies, and he has made his choice which to serve. The Paladin abandons the mortal frailties of doubt and fear and compromise, thrown away his selfish pride and embraced a purity of purpose that will seem like utter madness to lesser men. When others are weak, the Paladin is strong. When others are afraid, the Paladin is brave. When others are cruel, the Paladin is kind. When others are unsure, the Paladin is certain. When others are corrupted, the Paladin is chaste.
The Paladin is the champion that wages a war transcending the borders of kingdoms, continents, and planes of reality. When the devils of Baator come with their honeyed words and contracts of slavery, with their lies of moral relativism and chains of false guilt, the Paladin is the only being in the Prime Material plane that can truly stand forth to wipe the look of smug victory from their ugly faces. When the hordes of Tanar'ri threaten to spill forth and destroy, devour and defile all that is held sacred in the Prime Material plane, the Paladin charges atop his steed headlong at their gibbering hordes with sword held high. The Paladin stirs courage and rallies the armies of men to fight evil made manifest, and the wicked fear him, for there is no black arrow they can fire that will pierce his shield of utter devotion. When other men quake and wail and plead with the Gods to deliver them from their moment of doubt and fear, the Paladin shouts his praise to the heavens, because he was born for this moment.
You have not known the face of true evil. You only know the concept of evil as an abstraction, a thing only represented by men or admonished against by priests, or even a thing that does not exist at all...but it does. You have not yet seen its rictus, jagged grin of delight in your suffering and the suffering of all those you love. But a time may come when you do, and you will realize in that moment how utterly, terrifyingly inadequate you are in the face of true evil. You will be naked and mute and paralyzed, staring into the void of a force that only knows hunger. You will be drowning in lightless depths of black ink and be utterly without hope as you are swallowed by the abyss.
The Paladin is the only hand that could reach down and draw you back out again.
Comments
I'll sort this out...
Paladins like Clerics are undead hating scumbags who should be scoured from the face of Toril with a brillo pad.
Lets face it. We are talking two sides of a bad penny here... But if you need to know...
Clerics are scholars. They are bestowed powers by their chosen deities because they have learnt, followed and practised the tenants of their faith. Years of dedication and ritual must be adhered too. They follow a path that they believe their God has sent them upon. Always stopping to confer and look for omens and signs left by their God to direct them. Wisdom is important to the cleric.
Paladins are leaders. They are men of action, and scholarly pursuits do not interest them. They follow their own moral compass and whilst they can become champions of their chosen deities through their actions, they can quickly lose this status as well. Charisma then is important, not only to assure themselves but others that their actions are worthy.
To summarise.
Clerics unite the faithful through shared traditions and rituals.
Paladins lead the faithful through decisive action and championing their faiths.
...
Still scumbags though...
Thank you very much.
this is proven by their INT, since they either have a 3 score or just act accordingly...
Fighter Clerics are clerics with anger management issues.
Joking aside, Paladins were originally an upgrade for Fighters that reached high enough levels and were super good, granting them cleric abilities. Thats in the ancient High Level handbook. It was a less byzantine alternative to a Bard back then, though nothing since has reached that level of weird, so take that as you will. Making it a standard class imho is the wrong choice, its like having a lvl 1 Ninja. Yeah, you COULD make them standard classes from lvl 1, but its a bit weird. In 3.5 Unearthed Arcana made a prestige classes for the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard. Its a really solid idea, though all 3 end up being better casters. Rangers benefit the least, as you couldn't dumpstat Dex to get Two Weapon Fighting for free with low dex, but they cast Druid spells, so its a good trade, and much better RP-wise.
Anyways, a Paladin is supposed to be a paragon of Goodness, Order, Justice and Love (filial you perv!). They sre distinctly LESS tied to the dogmas of their God than a cleric, but most offend neither their patron, nor Code of Conduct. As an easy example, consider a Paladin of Helm or Hoar... neither is likely to fully embrace every tennet of their faith, or they will fall. Still, they can't go against their God in any substantial way.
I think that any game that introduces a Paladin as a base class should have its opposite as well. This is actually my primary reason to buy the Enhanced Editions though I owned the original is the Blackguard.
Blackguards are super cool, yo. I feel like they should be Chaotic Evil though to represent their actual opposite-ness of the Paladin.
Edit: I'm actually glad that the DM's guide for 5th edition has an evil-type Paladin in it along with Death Domain Clerics.
Now if only they'd properly label Cure spells as necromancy spells. . .
/houserules that Positive and Negative energy use are both Necromancy-type spells.
I was pretty close. Note, it mentions 3 correct pronunciations.
It was standars mind you to be internally consistent though, so if you spelled a word one way in a text, you should continue to spell it that way. English is a funny language, as the well to do tended to write in Latin and French, so lack of formality was more tolerated.
@FinneousPJ Yeah, that will change over time. Finland is a mighty peculiar bit of history though, very impressive accomplishments for its population.
For the record, the rule in English is that if there are two vowels together, you make the first vowel 'long', which sounds like the vowels name. Its an old rule. Hence, mouse and moose would sound the same.
Knight = ka-nicht, and is indeed very Germanic. Knife = ka-niff-eh, with the 'eh' being non-emphasized.
Anomen aside, I think they are as distinct from fighter/clerics as monks are from fighters who use their fists.
Thank you! XD
The Paladin is more than a man, more than a warrior, for his body is a conduit for the divine power that radiates from the highest spheres of the highest heavens of the multiverse. The Paladin is nothing less than the personification of righteous thought, word, and deed honed into a living weapon against evil. The Paladin is the steel that is plunged into the heart of darkness. The Paladin is the resounding thunder that answers the taunts of the wicked, the blinding truth that sears away the lies of darkness. The Paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
The Paladin knows that in the multiverse there is only good and evil, only light and darkness, only truth and lies, and he has made his choice which to serve. The Paladin abandons the mortal frailties of doubt and fear and compromise, thrown away his selfish pride and embraced a purity of purpose that will seem like utter madness to lesser men. When others are weak, the Paladin is strong. When others are afraid, the Paladin is brave. When others are cruel, the Paladin is kind. When others are unsure, the Paladin is certain. When others are corrupted, the Paladin is chaste.
The Paladin is the champion that wages a war transcending the borders of kingdoms, continents, and planes of reality. When the devils of Baator come with their honeyed words and contracts of slavery, with their lies of moral relativism and chains of false guilt, the Paladin is the only being in the Prime Material plane that can truly stand forth to wipe the look of smug victory from their ugly faces. When the hordes of Tanar'ri threaten to spill forth and destroy, devour and defile all that is held sacred in the Prime Material plane, the Paladin charges atop his steed headlong at their gibbering hordes with sword held high. The Paladin stirs courage and rallies the armies of men to fight evil made manifest, and the wicked fear him, for there is no black arrow they can fire that will pierce his shield of utter devotion. When other men quake and wail and plead with the Gods to deliver them from their moment of doubt and fear, the Paladin shouts his praise to the heavens, because he was born for this moment.
You have not known the face of true evil. You only know the concept of evil as an abstraction, a thing only represented by men or admonished against by priests, or even a thing that does not exist at all...but it does. You have not yet seen its rictus, jagged grin of delight in your suffering and the suffering of all those you love. But a time may come when you do, and you will realize in that moment how utterly, terrifyingly inadequate you are in the face of true evil. You will be naked and mute and paralyzed, staring into the void of a force that only knows hunger. You will be drowning in lightless depths of black ink and be utterly without hope as you are swallowed by the abyss.
The Paladin is the only hand that could reach down and draw you back out again.
Best Answer in all of ever!
/claps ecstatically
Almost makes me want to stop maining a Necromancer and become a Paladin. . . Almost.
Now, you could switch deities and regain your paladin bonuses, but in the case you mentioned, the paladin would lose the ability to cast spells, lay on hands, protect from evil, detect evil, until they atoned/found a new patron (maybe both). Fighting abilities would remain
Arthur learning what it is to be a good king, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and the test of chivalric honour when under the care of what turned out to be the Green Knight's wife, while overshadowed by keeping a commitment that he was sure would result in his death in order to keep his word of honour and of the Round Table. Of Lancelot, the Fisher King, Perceval, Galahad and the Grail quest in both earlier and later tellings such the Excalibur movie, the Prince Valiant cartoon series for those who remember it from their childhood. Figures with a mystic aura as knights dedicated to the Good, anointed champions equipped to face the most terrible evils and threats and give their lives to save, protect and right injustice. Whose strength comes from virtue, honour, justice and mercy rather then just their steel and allowing them to face down the most inhuman and demonic of evil undaunted. Aragorn becoming King is also this kind of character type (through it mixes with the Ranger though there is continuity between the roles), Faramir and Boromir at the end to).
And it's this adapted to the DnD setting with abilities to suit it, including the limited priest related abilities, those dedicated to path and calling of being the protectors of the people and the champions of those in need particularly when they have none. Whose devotion to to the path of virtue and service and protection (to the chivalric ideal) is the key and strength to their mystic abilities that mark them out from fighter concept or a fighter-cleric which would be a full warrior-priest dedicated to the cause of a god. There are overlaps but also I think quite central differences in the role's idea.
To the extent the role continues on the Arthurian knight idea it is a really interesting and compelling concept and offers a range of character types to play. But I always approach alignment as as a general description of outlook and mindset (or range of mindsets) that like attributes is part of a description of that character rather than an heavy-handed external straight-jacket on dictating actions. A paladin should be a character and not a alignment on legs, the lawful stupid parody. Through it is interesting to play a paladin starting out arrogant and a bit self-righteousness who has to learn humility, wisdom and understanding the hard way, and find the importance of charity, mercy and compassion in the complex and complicated situations they then find themselves in.
...
...
Damn.
The writing is real. *bows*