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chromatic orb

I was just reviewing some offensive mage spells, with attention to first level ones. Some are useful only early on, when critters are low level. Sleep, color spray fall into this category; blindness probably also, since you want to use it on an opponent that is likely to fail it's save. Why you would choose to use this spell instead of color spray or sleep is beyond me, but I guess it's an option; maybe you don't know the others.

I totally avoid any spell that needs a wizard to close to within melee range; shocking grasp, burning hands, vampiric touch and all that sort of thing. If a mage wants to risk melee they should have been a warrior. Then I read the description of chromatic orb. The target gets a save against the secondary effects ... at +6? Really? I seriously thought this was a typo, and am still wondering. By the time the spell starts to have decent damage, the critters are going to start having decent saves also, and giving them +6 seems to make this spell seriously inferior to magic missile at higher levels.

Does anyone actually use this spell by preference? (Obviously if you don't know any better offensive spells, and have no choice, that's a different story).

Comments

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    I once soloed an Avenger through BG1. The secondary effects happened remarkably often. :)

    Still I agree with you that the spell is inferior to Magic Missile, which is just a very good spell disrupter.
    FrdNwsm said:

    Sleep, color spray fall into this category; blindness probably also, since you want to use it on an opponent that is likely to fail it's save. Why you would choose to use this spell instead of color spray or sleep is beyond me, but I guess it's an option; maybe you don't know the others.

    Sleep and Color Spray only work against enemies below certain levels (level 5 I think). Blindness does not have that drawback. It also lasts quite long, making it a very effective spell against stronger individual opponents. Sleep and Color Spray are better against groups of weaker enemies.
  • XeZeLXeZeL Member Posts: 13
    Not a big fan of chromatic orb personally, but it's (in)famous for killing dragons and other unpleasant stuff in one hit (if they get veeery unlucky with their saves, obv helps to use malison and doom first). The +6 modifier is real (though I don't think it's there in the iwd version, making the spell far more interesting) which means that yeah, most of the time even lvl1 gibberlings will make the save.

    Blind on the other hand is an amazing spell, in part because it lasts for 8 hours (might even be more, I just know it's functionally forever) and in part because it reduces the sight radius of whoever is hit so low that they can pretty much only see people that are in melee combat with them. This obviously shuts down mages or any ranged character very effectively, but is possibly even more important on nasty melee guys (sarevok, bears in the early game, etc) as you can blind them, then just take 2 steps back and shoot them full of arrows. Or darts. Or whatever! They'll start running around randomly and attack the first person they see (the first person they get close enough to), but even then they'll be dealing with crappier thaco and armor class values (unsure of what these are, but +4/+4 or something I believe) and you can easily just take another two steps back to move out of their sightrange again.

    Long story short, blind is frikkin awesome and is overshadowed only by powerword: blind (small aoe and no save! And lvl 8 spell so blasts over many spell protections!) much later.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    I prefer Magic Missiles as well because I play min-reload, and I don't want to be taking big gambles like @BelgarathMTH mentioned. If I was happy to quicksave and reload often, then I guess Chromatic Orb will be better because I can just end a lot of nasty battles with a lucky shot.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    >> blind is frikkin awesome<<

    Again, temperment and play style make a difference here. I tend not to like all or nothing spells; blind does nothing if the target makes its save. In my initial post, did mention Blind as a spell that would tend to be more useful early in the game.
  • st_live418st_live418 Member Posts: 41
    I tend to keep a level 1 slot open for chromatic orb all the time. It gets thrown out for the same point as magic missile is used for (interrupting an enemy mage) at the some point in a battle. I can't say I have any memorable moments of using it, but I know its mades annoying skirmishes a bit easier on long gone playthroughs. I like that it gets me more variety in my lvl 1 slots, but I can't honestly say there is much strategy involved in that decision outside of trying to use different spells.
  • proccoprocco Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 915
    I've managed to kill Firkraag with one casting of chromatic orb. That spell has been in my repetoire ever since.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    It's mainly useful for troll killing.

    Level 1 spells are anyway not that useful.

    For my sorcs, i tend to take sleep (great for half of bg1 but replicable by wand), MM (interruption), spook (huge malus to saves), shield (really useful for solo play, against mages and ranged attackers) and chromatic orb.

    Blind is also a good choice. Identify and friends are rather useless (save a 1000s gold over the course of the game).
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    Define sequencer please?
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    edited March 2015
    Oh, and the way saving throws are made in this system makes all or nothing spells less effective as targets get higher in level, unless you do use a save reducer like malson. I play a web-based MMORPG called Gemstone, and in their system, while higher level targets are indeed more resistant to spells, the more experienced the spell caster, the harder it is to ward off their spells. It would be as if in BG (or any D%D based system), the target's save was reduced by 1 for every level of the enemy caster.

    There is a certain amount of that present in D&D systems, namely that damage from certain spells, such as fireball, varies with the level of the caster, but there is no effect on the saving throw per se.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited March 2015
    @FrdNwsm ? You haven't played BG2 nor progressed a mage to high enough level to know what sequencers are?

    Minor sequencer is a 4th level spell, that lets you cast two 2nd or lower level spells at the same time. The other sequencers come at higher levels, and the "major" spell sequencer is a 7th level spell that allows three spells of 4th level or lower to be cast simultaneously (thus the critical BG2 spells lower resistance and greater malison can be instantly cast together). The 9th level spell chain contingency effectively acts as a sequencer that can instantly and simultaneously cast up to three 8th or lower level spells, including the dread Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting times 3.

    I guess I didn't realize that some people posting in "philosophical" topics in the BG1 forum might have never played BG2 and have not studied nor played with high level BG2 arcane magic.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,083
    I'd like to mention is that using a mage with lots of Shocking Grasps and Vampiric Touches is quite different from using a warrior. Those spells only require the mage to be near an enemy for as long as the mage is casting the spell on it or trying to hit the enemy. After that, the mage can back off and leave the enemies to the other party members so that he or she doesn't take too much punishment. A warrior on the other hand has to be near the enemies constantly in order to beat them.

    I'm not saying that those two spells are just as efficient as a fighter, but they have a point, I think.
  • dashteacupdashteacup Member Posts: 52
    Most SCS mages have the shield spell up, which blocks magic missiles but not chromatic orb. So I'll usually dedicate one spell slot for orb, which can be circumstantially useful.
  • NoonNoon Member Posts: 203
    In BG2ee, i just stunned Dragomir with a chromatic orb as a 1st spell cast, 30min ago. Yes chromatic orb is a gambling spell with the odds not on your side, but when you win, it makes your day.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    In IWD2, saves for spells are 10 + spell level + key ability bonus + misc like Spell Focus but on the other hand, enemy saving throws are pretty high. It makes so-so casters much worse, but makes very good casters have very dangerous spells. IWD2 usea 3rd edition is why of course, different beast than 2nd, with its ups and downs. Nice system overall though imho.

    Anyways, regarding the original question, as most are have said, MM is usually the better spell. I love using Larloch's Minor Drain to interrupt casters though as it strikes noticebly faster. If you are observant, you can shut down an enemy mage using it by interrupting just about any other arcane spell. Not superb if soloing since you get what, 2 dart throw for free, but with a party, you can just massacre any non-script casting mage.

    Spook scales nicely btw, and Shield is a decent choice until Spirit Armour, especially for a Bard.
  • CrowseyeCrowseye Member Posts: 28
    Blindness is already effectively a save-or-die against enemies that can be affected by it, meaning the slay effect of Chromatic Orb that many swear by mostly just saves you the trouble of slinging/shooting those enemies. Blindness also does its thing right out of the box in BG1.

    Chromatic Orb's popularity makes me wonder how many people just restart the tougher fights until the baddie fails its save.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    I've been using Chromatic Orb on my Avenger a lot and for sure it's got a fair amount of instant kills. Usually it's not a big deal but every little bit helps.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    >>I've been using Chromatic Orb on my Avenger a lot<<

    It's also the only first level mage spell an Avenger gets, so you probably will use it a lot.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    >>I guess I didn't realize that some people posting in "philosophical" topics in the BG1 forum might have never played BG2 <<

    It's a forum devoted to BG1; having played BG2 is not a requirement to comment. And you know what they say about making assumptions ...
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited March 2015
    I basically stick to blind and spook. Blind for most enemies or enemies with lower saves, Spook for higher level enemies with good saves to take them out of the fight for a little while. Sleep in BG1 for most enemies fought in groups or that I know are 4HD or less (since the -3 save penalty means it's almost guaranteed to work on 4HD or less enemy)

    (One thing of note however....Blindness is SUPPOSED to be a 2nd level spell (the difference between Glitterdust and Blindness was glitterdust blinded a group but only lasted a few rounds, while Blindness only affected 1 target but was permanent until dispelled). They switched it to first level in BG because back in the first vanilla game they realized after the fact that there were no 1st level illusion spells and rather then add some (like spook or reflected image), they just switched Blindness and Protection from Petrifaction's spell levels...and then never bothered fixing it in BG2)

    I can't stomach using vanilla chromatic orb because of how poorly implemented it is. (a 1 HD hobgoblin only has a 15% chance to fail the save...and it just gets MUCH worse from there as the enemies get higher (and it's a save vs spells, which is most enemies best save), you need 2 other spells just to break even, which makes BG's CO absolute %^$& in terms of spell use efficiency).

    Though the PnP accurate version is a damn nice spell, right up there with Spook as a spell that simply becomes MUCH more useful the higher level the spell gets.

    (The main differences are the PnP verison are:

    The Orb is a thrown magical weapon, not a spell, meaning it's primary effect ignores magic resistance (Doesn't apply to the Silver or Black Orbs which have purely magical primary effects) and is thrown as a touch attack, rather then an attack roll (touch attacks are made as if the targets base AC was 10...i.e. it ignores body armor or the bonus AC of tough creature hides making it very likely to hit vs powerful or heavily armored creatures). (To simulate this, I gave the orbs (which are treated as a 1 charge thrown weapon, like Melf's MM) a +4 hit bonus base, and +1 hit per 2 levels until level 20..not 100% accurate since weaker enemies are more likely to be hit....but then again..they're also the enemies you can kill effortlessly and shouldn't be wasting a single target spell on anyway so it was deemed acceptable (I applied this change to all spells that are supposed to be touch attacks, not just CO))

    You get to choose which effect the Orb has at the time of creation (the list of choices based on your caster level), depending on it's color, and aside from the White orb (the lvl 1 orb, which is 1-4 damage and blinds for 1 round with no save) never really becomes obsolete since the orbs give you access to to a wide variety of spell effects (the white orb only becomes obsolete because of it's short duration (too short to really impact the enemies ai targeting) and the fact that the level 2 orb also causes blindness but for a longer duration for a flat save). And unlike the BG verison, none of the effects have a save bonus/penalty....they either have no save or a regular save, but you do have to actually hit the creature with the orb.

    As per PnP rules, because Chromatic Orb is a dual-school spell (Evocation/Enchantment) any specialist with access to either school can use it, and no specialist loses both schools.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @ZanathKariashi Normally I disagree with you when you talk PnP in BG... But, I must admit, that Chromatic Orb in PnP does sound extremely awesome!
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    While my mod did get set-back A LOT due to a HDD crash I might make just the spell itself available as a mod after some tidying up and actually giving the orbs some unique graphics.
  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166
    I usually start memorizing it when I hit levels at which it can stun. I haven't ever seen petrification, but the stun has come up for me seemingly a lot... or enough to be worth the gamble.

    By my estimation by the time your mage is high enough levels to get the good effects, even 5 magic missiles doesn't put that much of a dent in the toughest enemies so you might as well throw go for the gamble + a few points of damage. Certainly a step up from throwing sling bullets.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    edited March 2015
    If your mage is high enough level and you are casting level 1 spells on a foe, it means that foe is not worse the micromanagement and that your party/summons would slaughter it anyway.
    CO is useless, save for troll killing:
    - if you want direct damage/interruption, use MM
    - if you want a save or die spell, use blindness, it will work more often.

    I always take it on my sorcs though; for the fun factor (i like the death animation) and to kill trolls (i usually don't take melf acid arrow)
  • SkieSkie Member Posts: 90
    edited March 2015
    Haven't played IWD1 in like 10 years, but I remember vaguely there was a boss fight that became very easy thanks to orbs :)

    It's a fun spell.

    I usually run mostly MM, but still have a spot or two for an orb.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    In bg2, scs mages use this spell a lot. And it has finished my no-reload games more than once. The thing just petrifies or slays my characters with a fervor. ( I had base save vs spells of 8!) It is like the useless insta death spells in final fantasy-like games:it works only %1 of the time when you use it on enemies, when enemies use it on you it works all the time.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    It only seems like it works all the time when cast on you. And of course, if you are masochistic enough to play a no-reload game, all the enemy needs to do is have it work once.
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