People loved the kensage before ToB. In vanilla SoA, especially if you used the GM mod, the Kensage was incredible. Nothing had a high enough AC to matter, and the mod made GM worth having. Its not a bad build, but its big payout is in SoA. Fighter HLAs are much nastier than Kai, making duals progressively less powerful. Losing Toughness will mean being more strictly dependent on spell defense, etc.
I would say most people would rather run a berserker mage, which can dual early with little cost. They also get awesome immunities, and can use gauntlets the whole game, a big buff actually. The two best Gauntlets are really awesome, and pretty much leave a Berserker as good as a Kensai unless you dual late; Berserk and the gauntlets gives +3/+4, meaning a Kensai needs to be dualed at 12th to have ANY advantage... and the WK gauntlets add 1/2 apr. Meaning a berserker dualed at 9th is pretty much an equal fighter to a dualed at 13 kensai, while also getting a suite of immunities. There will be a THAC0 difference, but damage will be equal.
FI is mechanically a top tier build during the entire trilogy, whereas a Kensai is a tedious PC until you dual, and then you get the joy of being a lvl 1 mage in SoA. Yeah, digging up ~1.5 m XP to get your abilities back really sucks.
Final point: After Planetar, HLA spells aren't that amazing, but fighter HLAs make you a steam roller.
13 is when you wanna dual for that extra APR. A Kensai dualed at 13 is a freaking one man machine. I had much rather play Kensage than F/I but in the end it comes down to preference. A Kensage rocking Celestial Fury and Belm is a god. Same amount of upper-tier spells as a F/I.
Personally, I quit playing them because they are unoriginal. I prefer the Swashbuckler > Mage for the utility and originality.
13 is when you wanna dual for that extra APR. A Kensai dualed at 13 is a freaking one man machine. I had much rather play Kensage than F/I but in the end it comes down to preference. A Kensage rocking Celestial Fury and Belm is a god. Same amount of upper-tier spells as a F/I.
Personally, I quit playing them because they are unoriginal. I prefer the Swashbuckler > Mage for the utility and originality.
How is kensage with those weapons any better than a F/I with the same weapons? Sure, there is a brief period after the kensage recovers its fighter abilities and before the F/I gets its first HLA when you own it up but that spans exactly 250k xp.
Or more importantly, why would you trade off a huge list of great immunities for a single +1 to hit?? Berserker has lots to offer, and is much, much better in BG1. Aka an entire game.
13 is when you wanna dual for that extra APR. A Kensai dualed at 13 is a freaking one man machine. I had much rather play Kensage than F/I but in the end it comes down to preference. A Kensage rocking Celestial Fury and Belm is a god. Same amount of upper-tier spells as a F/I.
Personally, I quit playing them because they are unoriginal. I prefer the Swashbuckler > Mage for the utility and originality.
How is kensage with those weapons any better than a F/I with the same weapons? Sure, there is a brief period after the kensage recovers its fighter abilities and before the F/I gets its first HLA when you own it up but that spans exactly 250k xp.
Depends. The Kensage will be a slightly superior caster because of the higher mage level. That much is obvious. But the Kensage also gets bonuses to hit and AC that pretty much level things out. That bonus to AC is particular meaninful because neither the F/I nor the kensage can wear armor. By level 13 the Kensage will have +4 thac0 and +4 dmg, and an additional 2 AC - makes him on par with a level 20 fighter for the most part. A level 20 fighter only has HLAs to give him the edge. But I still maintain that Kai could very well be a HLA in and of itself. It's that good. So if you count Kai as a HLA, the F/I gets one more fighter HLA in exchange for worse AC, fewer Mage HLAs, a lower caster level, and an awful looking character without a proper voice set.
Edit: the F/I doesn't have to bother with downtime and it gets more lower level spells. So in the end I guess it comes down to what you prefer.
Or more importantly, why would you trade off a huge list of great immunities for a single +1 to hit?? Berserker has lots to offer, and is much, much better in BG1. Aka an entire game.
Berserker > Mage is crazy good. I still say offensively Kensage has the edge but no question a Berserker > Mage makes some of the tough parts of the game an absolute cakewalk. I say go with Berserker > Mage if you want defense and go Kensage for offense. Go F/I if you want a very powerful character with none of the inconvience. I still prefer Kensage, but again, I don't play them these days. Too unoriginal. I prefer Swashbuckler > Mage for the utility.
By going Kensai, you give up use of the Gauntlets of Extrordinary Specialization. So, thsts +1/+2 for non-Kensai, and toss in 1/2 apr extra. When you're arguing minutae, 1/2 apr is pretty relevant. Even with all the various buffs Kensai get, the FI will have a better THAC0. Fighter HLAs also make things pretty lopsided. Critical Strike is better than Kai.
The problem, such as ot is, the Berserker with those Gauntlets at lvl 13 has 1 less to hit, equal damage, and +1/2 apr. Which is +1 with IH. This kinda means the Kensai is not really better offensively.
Try running Jan sometime. Even with subpar stats he's a real terror the whole game. MUCH stronger in ToB than a swashbuckler to mage.
Kensai>Mages ARE better offensively than Berserker>Mages. I graciously conceded that Berserker>Mages were better defensively so don't force the issue. Those gauntlets are nice but with improved haste it's one more attack per round. That's it. Meanwhile, a 13/28 Kensai has way better thac0 and ac than a 13/28 Berserker mage. The only thing that gives the Berserker mage the edge is the immunities granted by rage which makes fighting mages a breeze.
In fact, a level 6 Kensai is equal to a Berserker WHEN RAGING. A level 13 Kensai eats a level 13 Berserker for breakfast. And that AC bonus Berserkers get when raging - A Kensai has it ALL THE TIME. And can still wear the Robe of Vecna.
This isn't just my opinion. It's common knowledge pretty much everywhere that Kensais make the best mages. Even playithardcore agrees.
Edit: Enough about the F/I. You too? I don't want to hear about the F/I anymore from anyone. NO HORRID WILTING. The end.
I honestly don't mean to sound arrogant, but Horrid Wilting is the best spell in the game except for maybe project image and timestop. Why would I want to gimp my character by running an illusionist?
Edit Edit: Scratch that. I would take Horrid Wilting over timespot and consider it equal to PI.
I will say this: in my opinion (and it's just an opinion) illusionists are in fact far better than necromancers, ADHW or not. ADHW is the only spell I really care about from necromancy but I couldn't live without Project Image, either. And if I had to live without one I would have to take PI (especially if soloing). My point is why not have both? I really don't like the idea of missing out on any spell schools. Divination is the only spell school I would go without if I had to. If I could combine a fighter with a conjurer I would totally be all over it. It's just when you're used to playing a certain way, losing spells you counted on for so long is very hard to swallow. I respect you guys and am not trying to act arrogant. So please don't think otherwise.
Like I pointed out, a level 13 kensai has only +1 to hit as an advantage, while the berserker gets +1/2 apr. I think there isn't many cases I wouldn't happily trade 1 point of attack bonus to get an extra 1/2 apr. An extra 1 full apr while IHed and using Critcal Strike as an FI? Yikes, thats quite a surprise.
A level 6 kensai matches a berserker without equipment, nobody disagrees on that, but there are two really, really powerful combat gauntlets in BG2, and one early in BG1 that make a huge difference. Kensais can't use gauntlets, remember?? If a berserker mage wants AC for some reason, he can use Bracers of Armour instead.
Horrid Wilting is a very good spell. It is not the best spell in the game, and certainly not in all situations. In a great many fights, a lowly Web, or Chaos spell will do more to win, and not eat up an 8th lvl slot. Stacking Webs is insanely good. Also, Skulltrap is arguably a more useful spell, though thats debateable/situational. 20d6 and effectively chainable without a sequencer?? Skully is more situational, but if you cast Simulacrum instead of HW, you can set an awful mess of those Skulls out.
In general, unless you're fighting weak mobs, disabling is better than damage. @semiticgod has a thread you should check out, his all caster Spider party. Very creative use of spells.
For me, a Kensai w/ Belm and Celestial Fury is a god. Belm grants an extra attack, and with improved haste, that's an awful lot of attacks. An extra 1/2 isn't going to make or break a build. I also think you are underestimating Kai. It's incredible. Try dualing into a thief from a kensai and you'll see what I mean. Additionally, that AC bonus is very good - something a Berserker has to rage to get, and the Kensai can wear the Robe of Vecna as well as the Berserker, so the Kensai is always going to have a better armor class.
Also, you are counting that +1 to hit advantage against a raged berserker w/ the guantlets. Come on! That's not fair. If you want to compare them, go ahead and give the Berserker the guantlets but don't count when raged unless you'll also count the Kensai when Kai'd up. Unraged, a level 13 kensai will have a +4 advantage in thac0 over a berserker (+3 if wearing the gauntlets).
And why are you hating on Horrid Wilting? It's by far the best damage spell in the game. Of course utility spells are used more often, but I would say it's the third best spell in the game behind Project Image and maybe Wish. My point is why not have it? I don't find the extra spells so incredibly useful that I would give up a spell I absolutely count on. Why? I cast Wish and get my spells again after every battle, and if that's not an option I reload the game.
Edit: but in the end it's just a game. You may have a playstyle where certain things work better for you.
For me, a Kensai w/ Belm and Celestial Fury is a god. Belm grants an extra attack, and with improved haste, that's an awful lot of attacks. An extra 1/2 isn't going to make or break a build. I also think you are underestimating Kai. It's incredible. Try dualing into a thief from a kensai and you'll see what I mean. Additionally, that AC bonus is very good - something a Berserker has to rage to get, and the Kensai can wear the Robe of Vecna as well as the Berserker, so the Kensai is always going to have a better armor class.
Also, you are counting that +1 to hit advantage against a raged berserker w/ the guantlets. Come on! That's not fair. If you want to compare them, go ahead and give the Berserker the guantlets but don't count when raged unless you'll also count the Kensai when Kai'd up. Unraged, a level 13 kensai will have a +4 advantage in thac0 over a berserker (+3 if wearing the gauntlets).
And why are you hating on Horrid Wilting? It's by far the best damage spell in the game. Of course utility spells are used more often, but I would say it's the third best spell in the game behind Project Image and maybe Wish. My point is why not have it? I don't find the extra spells so incredibly useful that I would give up a spell I absolutely count on. Why? I cast Wish and get my spells again after every battle, and if that's not an option I reload the game.
Edit: but in the end it's just a game. You may have a playstyle where certain things work better for you.
Kai gives +3.5 damage for 40 seconds when dualing a 13. This is not even close to being a HLA. Rage gives +2 AC, damage, thac0 and immunities for 4 minutes when dualing at 13. Robe of Vecna gives each character the same AC assuming rage.
Rage is reasonable to keep up continuously, Kai is not. Gauntlets are a given, especially in bg1. Given that it's reasonable to say that kensei has a negligible offensive advantage over berserker but a huge defensive disadvantage. Furthermore, you can dual a berserker at 9 and still maintain almost all of the benefits but end with a higher caster level.
In BG1 (which is where this thread is), F/I is vastly more useful than a berserker which is vastly more useful than a kensei.
ADHW is a great spell but it sounds like a crutch for you. If you learn the game better you might find that there are many interesting and powerful alternative strategies.
APR is a significant issue however: 13 kensei gets 5 APR with belm 13 berserker gets 4.5 without belm (so more damage vs +2 immune enemies) 9 berserker gets 5 APR with belm F/I gets 5 APR with belm F/I gets 10 APR with whirlwind (allowing use of +5 FoA or two handed weapons <- damage king)
How many weapons can a 13 kensei or 9 berserker GM before level cap? Is the +5 damage over the F/I going to balance against the awesome fury of 10 APR with FoA+5? Or any other ideal weapon that can be chosen with the 5 weapons a F/I can specialise in?
Don't tell me I need to learn the game better. I have put thousands of hours into the trilogy and know it quite well, thank you very much. You obviously don't understand what KAI does so I wouldn't be talking about knowing the game. Kai maxes all damage rolls. I don't know what you're talking about with the 3.5 damage. It also has absolutely nothing to do with when you dual. The only thing you get is more applications. So I would suggest you go check your facts before debating any further. No offense.
Kai gives at most iirc 5.5 points, assuming there is a 1d12 damage weapon in the game. Average is 6.5, maxed is 5.5 more. Iirc, there is a two-handed sword I think that does d12, but with a katana, its 4.5. Is this a buff? Yes, but its duration is short, and it uses up your spells for the round. You can Berserk at the start of a hard fight, and it'll last long enough unless you're badly under level.
That 1/2 apr is pretty nice actually, as @Wowo notes. It lets you not use belm potentially, which allows access to a decent off-hand. IH remember gives you 2 offhand attacks per round... aka you have 2 attacks with a weapon that does 6.5 damage average without anything but the extra main hand attacks. If you can get to 4.5 without Belm, you might as well forgoe it. FotA +5 is the best one hander by a wide margin, and arguably the best weapon period. CF is good when you get it in SoA, but its value drops in ToB, and your only 'better' option is Hindo's Doom. Yeah.
Regarding HW, I clearly stated its a 'very good spell', and explained why its not 'the best spell', without even going too much into 'situational' spells like Breach, or Spellstrike.
You are severely underestimating the strength of Kai. He said 3.5 dmg and that's BS and you know it. He's been lowballing every pro and overstating every con - that's just one example of how he did it. It's one thing to have a preference but he is declaring gnomes the master race and acting as if his opinion is fact and that's BS.
With celestial fury, you tell me that the difference between an average roll and a max roll is only 5dmg. If your dmg is that low you aren't doing something correctly.
As for horrid wilting, you didn't clearly state anything. You stated your opinion.
Why are we having this conversation still? I specifically stated my position and it's not changing. I conceded you have your own views. Fine. Respect that I have mine. The end.
The math of Kai is as I said. If a weapon deals 1d10 damage, the non-Kai damage ranges from 1 to 10, with equal probability. The average damage is 5.5, and kai instead deals 10 damage, which is 4.5 more. This isn't opinion. 3.5 is assuming a d8 weapon, which many use. Incidently, a bastard sword, or flail, or hammer, or morningstar actually get less out of kai, as their averages are high for their range. A bastard sword only gets +3 damage, longswords get 3.5.
No opinion here. Now, using up your cast for the round is a real cost, since Kai is very short duration. You can't prebuff with Kai. Casting even Magic Missile is usually a better choice for that turns spell. Thats numbers, not opinion.
The difference between Kai and not kai is not even 5 damage with CF, its 4.5 in fact. You might want to look up what Kai does again, it bypasses damage rolls to grant an instant maximum roll on successful hits. With a d10 weapon, thats always 4.5 damage.
I stated that MANY disablers are better spells than HW. The best? Nature's Beauty maybe, but Web is a 2nd level slot only, and not too many are immune to it, even very late. HW isn't even an auto-kill vs many powerful enemies, Web pretty nearly is. You can sequence 2 Webs in a Minor Sequencer, and you need extremely good saves to avoid two webs. Throw in a Greater Malison, it gets much, much more likely to be an instant win. You can win BG1 by relying on Web, and most of ToB can benefit from it. Chaos is another top tier spell. -4 is a HUGE penalty, meaning as long as an enemy isnt immune to Confusion (few are) it has decent odds. Assuming a base save of 1, thats now 5, if you chained 2 they have a 50% fail rate, and Chaos is very much save or suck, and the more victims the better the effect. If you use Greater Malison, those 2 Chaos will pretty much win any fight.
Ever used Feeblemind much? It can win very hard fights with 1 spell. @semiticgod uses it often vs Dragons.
For damage, Skull Trap deals nearly as much, and you can stack them sky high. So yeah, HW is a good spell, in the sense that a 12lb sledge hammer is a good hammer; but it certainly isnt anywhere near as versatile as a 22oz claw hammer. Good luck pulling a nail with a sledge! HW is very much a big, blunt hammer.
Haven't even brought up the silliness you can do with Time Stop, Mislead, Shapeshift, or Wish. What about a Planetar? I would RARELY prefer a HW over a Planetar. Ditto for an Elemental Prince.
I prefer HW. It's a preference. I disagree with your favored spells. Sue me. /discussion.
As for Kai, it maxes your damage rolls. You are factoring it without regard for low rolls. Not every roll is dead middle. With improved haste, you can get enough attacks in that Kai can guarantee upwards of a 50 swing in damage output. You can snub your nose up at that if you want, but I think it's pretty good..
Edit: Oh, and tack on another guaranteed 6 dmg points for when I'm wielding the Brand+5. Pain in the ass to obtain but totally worth it. With improved haste and Spectral Brand + belm that could potentially be about a 100 point swing in dmg output.
On the question of favourite spell, thats definately a different story, and I agree HW is a really great spell! I am very fond of sledgehammers in real life. We can stop discussing this, I think we've covered most of this subtopic.
Hmm... I'm not sure what my favourite spell is actually, probably Chaos. I used to prefer straight damage, but a solo caster killing Sarevok's party by casting Chaos really made that spell special to me. Tazok killed Semaj and Anjelo, while Sarevok was injured by him. Hilarious, really.
Are you sure elemental damage gets affected by Kai?? As in, every hit does exactly the same damage?
I didn't think it even maxed the variable secondary damage of the Staff of the Ram, just the d6.
Yea, I was hoping you would kinda let that go. I would like to jump right back and say "oh yea, all elemental damage max output". But in truth I only suspect it. I needed another bargaining chip lol. I'm getting my kensage loving ass handed to me over here. Have mercy.
I know FOR A FACT it doesn't proc anything. Like when wielding celestial fury I definitely never got the 20 electric on every last hit but I am pretty sure elemental damage is maxed. It seems very powerful using those epic weapons. Seeing as how it only guarantees base weapon damage max I would think it must because otherwise it wouldn't seem so devastating (which it does, at least for me). But I have to be honest and concede I do not know this for a fact. I've never actually tested it - just assumed it.
Offensively, Kensai/mage is probably better than Berserker/mage. However, as I was kind of sort of reminded recently in my last failed no-reload, Kensai has one crippling defensive lack, and no, it's not the lack of armor: mage buffs take care of that. Shields, however, cannot be equipped...
The main problem is that outside of having absurd saves, you're vulnerable to stun, ESPECIALLY by Kuo-tau bolt. Berserkers can avoid them with either Rage or just the "mundane" Reflex that Kensais cannot equip. The lack of shields also means no shield of harmony, meaning again you're relying on potions or the greenstone amulet or low saves, lower than I think you can normally get them. There's always the Shield of Cheese as well, but you're a mage anyways; area of effect those eye-freaks to oblivion.
Some of these objections can be covered by a party, since Chaotic Commands can replicate the SoH, but if I'm not mistaken Free Action doesn't stop Stun, and even with something like Contingency: Helpless: Otiluke's Resilient Sphere you're not guaranteed to survive.
tldr; Kensai/mage has a better offense than a Berserker/mage almost without question. But its defenses lack some crucial points, and in BG1 and more importantly BG2, defenses are almost always more important.
I prefer HW. It's a preference. I disagree with your favored spells. Sue me. /discussion.
As for Kai, it maxes your damage rolls. You are factoring it without regard for low rolls. Not every roll is dead middle. With improved haste, you can get enough attacks in that Kai can guarantee upwards of a 50 swing in damage output. You can snub your nose up at that if you want, but I think it's pretty good.
You don't think it's good?
I. don't. care.
@DreadKhan is going out if his way to provide factual information that you're choosing to ignore in your assessment between kensage and it's alternatives.
If you're wielding CF and Belm and you have 10 APR and your enemy isn't immune to +2 weapons then Kai will add 43 damage per round for 40 seconds (almost 7 rounds for ~287 extra damage). However, an alternative character with vecna robe can cast any spell casting time 4 or less instead so, in the worst case, you can cast magic missile 7 times for 17.5 average damage each or a total of 122.5 damage.
Magic Missile is obviously the least beneficial spell that could be cast in your spell book so contrary to your accusation that I'm exaggerating things the reality would be much in favour of not using Kai.
What I'm less sure about is if activating Kai or casting a 0 casting time spell will actually cost an attack. Could maybe test that but I seem to remember a theory that using Kai could actually reduce overall damage once you hit 10 APR.
@Stormvessel there are still new things squirreled away in even original vanilla BG, saying nothing of what new tricks EE will eventually offer. The 2nd Ed system was designed to be byzantine, in part so the odds of anyone but the DM knowing the rules really much lessened. The original designer of DnD was deeply fond of certain things, among them the supremacy of the DM. People can't question as much if they aren't sure whats going on exactly! Now, the IE implementation isn't perfect, but if you've ever looked over a chart of the spell defense/counter spell stuff, its pretty complex. I played for many years and largely just stumbled blind through spell defenses, and rarely used them!
Now, I will say this again, I think the Kensage thing is a carry over from vanilla BG, where Kensai 13 Mage was about the strongest thing you could build. There was only the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, which lack the 1/2 apr, and no HLAs meant a FI was mechanically. In truth, I think you would have a strong position if you tossed in a caveat regarding the Kensage: the Kensage is the strongest for SoA, especially until you get to the very bottom of WK, where you get the gauntlets. Berserker still has immunities, but Kensai probably hits a good bit harder, and there are less spells competing with Kai.
I prefer HW. It's a preference. I disagree with your favored spells. Sue me. /discussion.
As for Kai, it maxes your damage rolls. You are factoring it without regard for low rolls. Not every roll is dead middle. With improved haste, you can get enough attacks in that Kai can guarantee upwards of a 50 swing in damage output. You can snub your nose up at that if you want, but I think it's pretty good.
You don't think it's good?
I. don't. care.
@DreadKhan is going out if his way to provide factual information that you're choosing to ignore in your assessment between kensage and it's alternatives.
If you're wielding CF and Belm and you have 10 APR and your enemy isn't immune to +2 weapons then Kai will add 43 damage per round for 40 seconds (almost 7 rounds for ~287 extra damage). However, an alternative character with vecna robe can cast any spell casting time 4 or less instead so, in the worst case, you can cast magic missile 7 times for 17.5 average damage each or a total of 122.5 damage.
Magic Missile is obviously the least beneficial spell that could be cast in your spell book so contrary to your accusation that I'm exaggerating things the reality would be much in favour of not using Kai.
What I'm less sure about is if activating Kai or casting a 0 casting time spell will actually cost an attack. Could maybe test that but I seem to remember a theory that using Kai could actually reduce overall damage once you hit 10 APR.
Go test it out. You can download EE keeper if you don't already have it. I'm interested in knowing myself because Kai seems very, very deadly every time I've used it. Just...devastating. I would be willing to bet it doesn't reduce the damage at all. I would be willing to bet it increases it substantially, particularly with a weapon that adds a bonus roll for elemental damage.
These are all good questions. I will run some tests later. Perhaps you could as well.
You could even beast him up more than that. Give him the buckler you can get from the Friendly Arm Inn in the Enhanced Edition which gives him +1 Constitution, then use the tome of constitution on him for 22 Constitution overall. Poof, he will be quite the axe wielding tank who regenerates health.
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I would say most people would rather run a berserker mage, which can dual early with little cost. They also get awesome immunities, and can use gauntlets the whole game, a big buff actually. The two best Gauntlets are really awesome, and pretty much leave a Berserker as good as a Kensai unless you dual late; Berserk and the gauntlets gives +3/+4, meaning a Kensai needs to be dualed at 12th to have ANY advantage... and the WK gauntlets add 1/2 apr. Meaning a berserker dualed at 9th is pretty much an equal fighter to a dualed at 13 kensai, while also getting a suite of immunities. There will be a THAC0 difference, but damage will be equal.
FI is mechanically a top tier build during the entire trilogy, whereas a Kensai is a tedious PC until you dual, and then you get the joy of being a lvl 1 mage in SoA. Yeah, digging up ~1.5 m XP to get your abilities back really sucks.
Final point: After Planetar, HLA spells aren't that amazing, but fighter HLAs make you a steam roller.
Personally, I quit playing them because they are unoriginal. I prefer the Swashbuckler > Mage for the utility and originality.
Edit: the F/I doesn't have to bother with downtime and it gets more lower level spells. So in the end I guess it comes down to what you prefer.
The problem, such as ot is, the Berserker with those Gauntlets at lvl 13 has 1 less to hit, equal damage, and +1/2 apr. Which is +1 with IH. This kinda means the Kensai is not really better offensively.
Try running Jan sometime. Even with subpar stats he's a real terror the whole game. MUCH stronger in ToB than a swashbuckler to mage.
In fact, a level 6 Kensai is equal to a Berserker WHEN RAGING. A level 13 Kensai eats a level 13 Berserker for breakfast. And that AC bonus Berserkers get when raging - A Kensai has it ALL THE TIME. And can still wear the Robe of Vecna.
Uh, Kensai please. I will pass on the Berserker.
Edit: Enough about the F/I. You too? I don't want to hear about the F/I anymore from anyone. NO HORRID WILTING. The end.
I honestly don't mean to sound arrogant, but Horrid Wilting is the best spell in the game except for maybe project image and timestop. Why would I want to gimp my character by running an illusionist?
Edit Edit: Scratch that. I would take Horrid Wilting over timespot and consider it equal to PI.
/sarcasm
A level 6 kensai matches a berserker without equipment, nobody disagrees on that, but there are two really, really powerful combat gauntlets in BG2, and one early in BG1 that make a huge difference. Kensais can't use gauntlets, remember?? If a berserker mage wants AC for some reason, he can use Bracers of Armour instead.
Horrid Wilting is a very good spell. It is not the best spell in the game, and certainly not in all situations. In a great many fights, a lowly Web, or Chaos spell will do more to win, and not eat up an 8th lvl slot. Stacking Webs is insanely good. Also, Skulltrap is arguably a more useful spell, though thats debateable/situational. 20d6 and effectively chainable without a sequencer?? Skully is more situational, but if you cast Simulacrum instead of HW, you can set an awful mess of those Skulls out.
In general, unless you're fighting weak mobs, disabling is better than damage. @semiticgod has a thread you should check out, his all caster Spider party. Very creative use of spells.
Also, you are counting that +1 to hit advantage against a raged berserker w/ the guantlets. Come on! That's not fair. If you want to compare them, go ahead and give the Berserker the guantlets but don't count when raged unless you'll also count the Kensai when Kai'd up. Unraged, a level 13 kensai will have a +4 advantage in thac0 over a berserker (+3 if wearing the gauntlets).
And why are you hating on Horrid Wilting? It's by far the best damage spell in the game. Of course utility spells are used more often, but I would say it's the third best spell in the game behind Project Image and maybe Wish. My point is why not have it? I don't find the extra spells so incredibly useful that I would give up a spell I absolutely count on. Why? I cast Wish and get my spells again after every battle, and if that's not an option I reload the game.
Edit: but in the end it's just a game. You may have a playstyle where certain things work better for you.
Rage gives +2 AC, damage, thac0 and immunities for 4 minutes when dualing at 13.
Robe of Vecna gives each character the same AC assuming rage.
Rage is reasonable to keep up continuously, Kai is not. Gauntlets are a given, especially in bg1. Given that it's reasonable to say that kensei has a negligible offensive advantage over berserker but a huge defensive disadvantage. Furthermore, you can dual a berserker at 9 and still maintain almost all of the benefits but end with a higher caster level.
In BG1 (which is where this thread is), F/I is vastly more useful than a berserker which is vastly more useful than a kensei.
ADHW is a great spell but it sounds like a crutch for you. If you learn the game better you might find that there are many interesting and powerful alternative strategies.
APR is a significant issue however:
13 kensei gets 5 APR with belm
13 berserker gets 4.5 without belm (so more damage vs +2 immune enemies)
9 berserker gets 5 APR with belm
F/I gets 5 APR with belm
F/I gets 10 APR with whirlwind (allowing use of +5 FoA or two handed weapons <- damage king)
How many weapons can a 13 kensei or 9 berserker GM before level cap? Is the +5 damage over the F/I going to balance against the awesome fury of 10 APR with FoA+5? Or any other ideal weapon that can be chosen with the 5 weapons a F/I can specialise in?
That 1/2 apr is pretty nice actually, as @Wowo notes. It lets you not use belm potentially, which allows access to a decent off-hand. IH remember gives you 2 offhand attacks per round... aka you have 2 attacks with a weapon that does 6.5 damage average without anything but the extra main hand attacks. If you can get to 4.5 without Belm, you might as well forgoe it. FotA +5 is the best one hander by a wide margin, and arguably the best weapon period. CF is good when you get it in SoA, but its value drops in ToB, and your only 'better' option is Hindo's Doom. Yeah.
Regarding HW, I clearly stated its a 'very good spell', and explained why its not 'the best spell', without even going too much into 'situational' spells like Breach, or Spellstrike.
With celestial fury, you tell me that the difference between an average roll and a max roll is only 5dmg. If your dmg is that low you aren't doing something correctly.
As for horrid wilting, you didn't clearly state anything. You stated your opinion.
Why are we having this conversation still? I specifically stated my position and it's not changing. I conceded you have your own views. Fine. Respect that I have mine. The end.
No opinion here. Now, using up your cast for the round is a real cost, since Kai is very short duration. You can't prebuff with Kai. Casting even Magic Missile is usually a better choice for that turns spell. Thats numbers, not opinion.
The difference between Kai and not kai is not even 5 damage with CF, its 4.5 in fact. You might want to look up what Kai does again, it bypasses damage rolls to grant an instant maximum roll on successful hits. With a d10 weapon, thats always 4.5 damage.
I stated that MANY disablers are better spells than HW. The best? Nature's Beauty maybe, but Web is a 2nd level slot only, and not too many are immune to it, even very late. HW isn't even an auto-kill vs many powerful enemies, Web pretty nearly is. You can sequence 2 Webs in a Minor Sequencer, and you need extremely good saves to avoid two webs. Throw in a Greater Malison, it gets much, much more likely to be an instant win. You can win BG1 by relying on Web, and most of ToB can benefit from it. Chaos is another top tier spell. -4 is a HUGE penalty, meaning as long as an enemy isnt immune to Confusion (few are) it has decent odds. Assuming a base save of 1, thats now 5, if you chained 2 they have a 50% fail rate, and Chaos is very much save or suck, and the more victims the better the effect. If you use Greater Malison, those 2 Chaos will pretty much win any fight.
Ever used Feeblemind much? It can win very hard fights with 1 spell. @semiticgod uses it often vs Dragons.
For damage, Skull Trap deals nearly as much, and you can stack them sky high. So yeah, HW is a good spell, in the sense that a 12lb sledge hammer is a good hammer; but it certainly isnt anywhere near as versatile as a 22oz claw hammer. Good luck pulling a nail with a sledge! HW is very much a big, blunt hammer.
Haven't even brought up the silliness you can do with Time Stop, Mislead, Shapeshift, or Wish. What about a Planetar? I would RARELY prefer a HW over a Planetar. Ditto for an Elemental Prince.
As for Kai, it maxes your damage rolls. You are factoring it without regard for low rolls. Not every roll is dead middle. With improved haste, you can get enough attacks in that Kai can guarantee upwards of a 50 swing in damage output. You can snub your nose up at that if you want, but I think it's pretty good..
Edit: Oh, and tack on another guaranteed 6 dmg points for when I'm wielding the Brand+5. Pain in the ass to obtain but totally worth it. With improved haste and Spectral Brand + belm that could potentially be about a 100 point swing in dmg output.
Yah, kai suks
Hmm... I'm not sure what my favourite spell is actually, probably Chaos. I used to prefer straight damage, but a solo caster killing Sarevok's party by casting Chaos really made that spell special to me. Tazok killed Semaj and Anjelo, while Sarevok was injured by him. Hilarious, really.
I didn't think it even maxed the variable secondary damage of the Staff of the Ram, just the d6.
I know FOR A FACT it doesn't proc anything. Like when wielding celestial fury I definitely never got the 20 electric on every last hit but I am pretty sure elemental damage is maxed. It seems very powerful using those epic weapons. Seeing as how it only guarantees base weapon damage max I would think it must because otherwise it wouldn't seem so devastating (which it does, at least for me). But I have to be honest and concede I do not know this for a fact. I've never actually tested it - just assumed it.
The main problem is that outside of having absurd saves, you're vulnerable to stun, ESPECIALLY by Kuo-tau bolt. Berserkers can avoid them with either Rage or just the "mundane" Reflex that Kensais cannot equip. The lack of shields also means no shield of harmony, meaning again you're relying on potions or the greenstone amulet or low saves, lower than I think you can normally get them. There's always the Shield of Cheese as well, but you're a mage anyways; area of effect those eye-freaks to oblivion.
Some of these objections can be covered by a party, since Chaotic Commands can replicate the SoH, but if I'm not mistaken Free Action doesn't stop Stun, and even with something like Contingency: Helpless: Otiluke's Resilient Sphere you're not guaranteed to survive.
tldr; Kensai/mage has a better offense than a Berserker/mage almost without question. But its defenses lack some crucial points, and in BG1 and more importantly BG2, defenses are almost always more important.
If you're wielding CF and Belm and you have 10 APR and your enemy isn't immune to +2 weapons then Kai will add 43 damage per round for 40 seconds (almost 7 rounds for ~287 extra damage). However, an alternative character with vecna robe can cast any spell casting time 4 or less instead so, in the worst case, you can cast magic missile 7 times for 17.5 average damage each or a total of 122.5 damage.
Magic Missile is obviously the least beneficial spell that could be cast in your spell book so contrary to your accusation that I'm exaggerating things the reality would be much in favour of not using Kai.
What I'm less sure about is if activating Kai or casting a 0 casting time spell will actually cost an attack. Could maybe test that but I seem to remember a theory that using Kai could actually reduce overall damage once you hit 10 APR.
Now, I will say this again, I think the Kensage thing is a carry over from vanilla BG, where Kensai 13 Mage was about the strongest thing you could build. There was only the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, which lack the 1/2 apr, and no HLAs meant a FI was mechanically. In truth, I think you would have a strong position if you tossed in a caveat regarding the Kensage: the Kensage is the strongest for SoA, especially until you get to the very bottom of WK, where you get the gauntlets. Berserker still has immunities, but Kensai probably hits a good bit harder, and there are less spells competing with Kai.
These are all good questions. I will run some tests later. Perhaps you could as well.