Main guy: mage/cleric using web and controller spells Minsc: with spiderbane Imoen: for traps and locks Kivan: ring of free action That fighter/cleric dwarf with another ring of free action.
I kill everyone with ease lol. I silence casters with bhaalspawn. I web fighters. I use melf minute meteors. Hold spells blind etc
Hmm.. I've played this game many times with many different compositions. Here is what I have decided is the best if you do not mind having to save and reload a few times.
MY Character= FIghter / Mage /Thief : Once he has Ghost Shield, Blur and Mirror Image, you can do some serious damage with him. Put all points into everything except Wis and Cha, The Charisma can be taken care of by Ajantis, and the Thieving abilities can be worked around. Once you get him into BG2, he will be a wickedly deadly character. A backstab with a two handed long sword for 100+ points damage. That is only one aspect of the deadly combination.
Minsc : Enough Said
Brawnwen : Spells and items can make here on par with a top notch fighter when needed. No need for the Fighter / Cleric.
Ajantis : High Charisma and Paladin abilities plus party spells can make him deadly and a great party member.
Dynahier : Great mage, I think better than Edwin as she can specialize and when having Neera, You have two powerful mages.
Neera: Yes the wild thing can be annoying but if played right she is potent and there are many benefits. Nothing like gating in a Demon and having protection from evil spells / scrolls available. And the wild surge can be devastating.
Dynahier : Great mage, I think better than Edwin as she can specialize and when having Neera, You have two powerful mages.
I'm curious, what do you mean when you say Dynahier can specialize; do you mean her being an invoker? True it adds a spell slot/level but it also comes with a much higher cost from opposing schools than Edwin's conjuration specialization.
Edwin also starts with his über necklace and with Evermemory he is undoubtefully the best possible mage in BG1. Though he is evil of course and cannot be combined with Minsc. Edwin is IMHO even better than Baeloth due to his massive amount of spell slots.
Neera is good, wildmage adds a spell slot/level without opposing schools and the 5% wild surge can be funny and/or avoided with power word:reload, but she ain't better than Edwin. Of the non-evil arcane users she is probably the best though, excluding a dual-classed Imoen. I ain't counting Xan really, that guy is just so depressing and echanters aren't really the creme de la creme in BG, hehe
I can't say that I am playing at the moment but I will have to start up a game. I clearly remember having a F/M/T and using spells for armor protection and never using a shield so I could use a two handed sword. I defiantly remember the x3 backstab. I was playing with the CD install disks. I was backstabbing for occasionally over 100pts damage. I cleary remember the djinnis and having my F/M/T backstabbing then running away and doing it over and over. I must have played this game 15x+ through both sequels. We wont talk about IWD. Lol.
@pcurtj1974, could it be that you switched between a onehander and a twohander for different situations? Onehander, like Varscona, Dagger of Venom or whatever, for BS to get the multipler, than a twohanded sword for regular fights.
It is possible to do obscene damage with backstab, especially with qstaff. Maybe it was a staff and not a sword?
If you still have an old save and wouldn't mind booting it up for a spin, I would love to see a ss of it
The Black Guard is indicative of how I think BeamDog had failed handle the responsibility given to them in making the Enhanced Editions.
I shelled out good money for the Enhanced Editions because I wanted a few simple things: the ability to play the game natively on my higher resolution, wide-screen monitor, some modest engine enhancements, and (critical) bug fixes.
I got those things, for which I am very grateful. We got the Black Pits too, which is a perfect addition (a nice option, and one which is completely ignorable).
Unfortunately, we also got a lot of amatuer-hour, mod-like stuff that I personally do not appreciate being baked into the game in a non-optional manner.
A couple of for instances: Algernon's Cloak nerf. Bad BeamDog, bad! That cloak had been the way it was since day one and was a keystone item for many challenge runs. No one was forced to use it if they thought it was "cheesy".
The Blind spell causing foes to wander around. Seriously? Try closing your eyes and running around in close quarters and/or uneven terrain with people actively try to do you bodily harm with weapons and see how far you get. If anything, the original behavior was being generous in that a blind opponent should probably be a one hit kill (in RL and P&P rules).
Flesh Golem Cave resting respawn nerf. I could go on for hours about just this point alone. Firstly, I like respawning monsters in general as, to me, it makes the game world seem more alive. Nothing is worse than every map in an RPG becoming depopulated forever in the wake of your character. Not only is this a case of unwarranted nanny-meddling, but the manner in which it was fixed did nothing!
And so on, and so on, like the Mirror Image nerf (BG1), and other pervasive spell/item tinkering, widespread store/store inventory changes, etc. etc.
On the other hand, when it comes to "their" stuff, we get a bunch of overpowered trash like the Doom Guard, the introduction of inventory Bags, ammo stacking (though they made throwing daggers weigh a ton as to be useless), and annoying and intrusive NPCs. Seriously, Neera is worse than Nalia when it comes to pestering me, and Rashaad actually helps you kill Nimbul... Dorn, funny enough, is the least offensive of the lot.
I could go on and on. I don't want to sound unappreciative, as I do actually love many of the things you have done, but BeamDog, you guys have been entrusted with the care of a beloved and classic game. Please quit screwing with it. If you want to mod, then do that for goodness sake.
(Sorry for hijacking this thread a bit. I *was* just going to give my opinions on the addition of the Doom Guard, but I've been *trying* to enjoy these Enhanced Editions lately, but it seems at every turn I encounter another unwanted, and unwarranted change to the game I love and remember...)
Although it's always good to listen to a good critique, you have to try and avoid any disinformation.
One of the things you mention is not at all "amatuer-hour, mod-like" stuff, but in fact, a bug fix.
The original had a buggy per/day implementation which allowed the Algernon's Cloak to underflow from 0 to 65535. Some people tend to use beneficial bugs. But it doesn't change the situation that when something that turns 65535 from 0 after one use, is simply a bug.
So, Beamdog fixed the bug with the Algernon's Cloak, not nerfed it.
As for the Flesh Golem Cave spawn change, Carrion Crawlers still give enough XP that it's worth it to rest and continue to farm them. I see absolutely no reason to hate BGEE just because you can farm Carrion Crawlers instead of Flesh Golems in the cave.
Also, the the main impetus for the change was that the flesh golems are constructs, not natural creatures wandering the wilderness.
This was a design decision, as was the blind spell change (http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/604439/#Comment_604439) The EE version of the spell leads to situation when blinded enemies are a little bit more dangerous to the party than the non-EE version. I see it as a good change, more realistical if you ask me - why on Earth a blinded man should stand still without moving?
To me, the changes the EE has brought, actually serve the game well. Mind you, if you don't like the behavior brought by the EE, you always have all possibilities to play the vanilla game still.
As for NPCs, it's a question of personal taste, to say the least. I for one don't find Neera a pestering person, not at all. In fact, during a romance with her, charname gets a feeling close to the feeling you get in the real life relationships. I think that Neera is rather free from the behavior of your character point of view and doesn't look or sound like Nalia, not at all.
What's wrong with Rasaad helping you to kill Nimbul? I don't see it as a slight reason to hate an NPC. If you take Rasaad into your party, if you talk to him, if you complete his quests in BGEE and BG2EE, you'll see that this character is well written and there're interesting moral things you have to deal with, with difficult life choices.
You say "you shelled out good money for the Enhanced Editions because you wanted a few simple things: the ability to play the game natively on my higher resolution, wide-screen monitor, some modest engine enhancements, and (critical) bug fixes."
To me, this is entirely what Beamdog did - they let you play your favourite game on higher resolustion, with wide monitors, with engine enhancements (the Quick Loot bar, the much detailed descriptions on the character sheet, a transfer of weapons from BG1 to BG2, romances in BG1 and the transfer of them into BG2, green markers for the known/unknown spells, free switching from the arcane to the divine spell books) and critical bug fixes.
I like EEs a lot and very much see how much work Beamdog put into it.
@Blucher how silly, you liked your exploits and now some of them are gone so you want to complain about it. A little heads up, many other exploits have been fixed to create an overall slightly more challenging experience.
Hmm.. I've played this game many times with many different compositions. Here is what I have decided is the best if you do not mind having to save and reload a few times.
MY Character= FIghter / Mage /Thief : Once he has Ghost Shield, Blur and Mirror Image, you can do some serious damage with him. Put all points into everything except Wis and Cha, The Charisma can be taken care of by Ajantis, and the Thieving abilities can be worked around. Once you get him into BG2, he will be a wickedly deadly character. A backstab with a two handed long sword for 100+ points damage. That is only one aspect of the deadly combination.
Minsc : Enough Said
Brawnwen : Spells and items can make here on par with a top notch fighter when needed. No need for the Fighter / Cleric.
Ajantis : High Charisma and Paladin abilities plus party spells can make him deadly and a great party member.
Dynahier : Great mage, I think better than Edwin as she can specialize and when having Neera, You have two powerful mages.
Neera: Yes the wild thing can be annoying but if played right she is potent and there are many benefits. Nothing like gating in a Demon and having protection from evil spells / scrolls available. And the wild surge can be devastating.
1. You can't backstab with two handed swords. You must be remembering wrong because it's not in the game, I promise.
2. Minsc is outshone in every way by Dorn. He has immunities, better stats, and useful class abilities. Minsc has a hamster... while Minsc is a fun character and many people like him, he is not the best by any stretch of the imagination.
3. Branwen will never be a top notch fighter because she only ever gets 1 attack per round. Fighters get more than 1 attack... once they have at least 2 attacks per round they're twice as good as her in combat. Yeslick is much better simply because he is a fighter/cleric but also because his innate dispel magic is great, he gets bonuses to all his saving throws while Branwen does not, and het gets more attacks and a better Thac0. Heck, even Viconia is better because she gets magic resistance. Branwe, while I like her as a character might be the worst cleric in BG1.
4. Edwin is also a specialist mage, she like Dyanheir he gets the additional 1 spell per spell level of a specialist mage. However, Edwin is a Conjuror which is arguably the best specialization since it gives up the ability to cast Divination spells. Most divination spells have a counterpart on the divine spell list or are easily replaceable by another ability (detect illusion thief ability, high lore for identification etc.) Dynaheir is an Invoker which might be the worst specialization because it gives up Enchantment spells. Enchantment spells are soo good in BG1. So she gives up such amazing spells as:
Sleep, the auto-win spell for at least 50% of the game... and it onle takes a 1st level slot. Hold Person, another auto win and works aginst some tough encounters that sleep doesn't. Dire Charm, make the bad guys into good guys to crush your enemies with Greater Malison, while not amazing in BG1 many encounters in BG2 are extremely harder with this spell. Confusion, aka make the baddies run around and kill themselves while you go get a snack. Emotion: Hopelessness, or Emotion: Lie There and Take It. These are just some of the examples.
On top of that Edwin's amulet gives him an extra spell of each level he can cast, meaning he has way more spells than Dynaheir could ever dream of, and a better specialization to boot. Dynaheir may actually be the worst mage in BG1.
5. Counting on specific wild surges is like hoping for your enemies to spontaneously combust, you cannot predict with any certainty when you will summon in a demon. That said, Neera is a powerful mage because she gets the extra 1 spell per spell level of a specialist without losing an opposed school. Also, you can pull off some shenanigans with Reckless Dweomer.
I'm sorry to say but that is definitely far from the best possible party composition. If it's a group you like to play though, more power to you. You can play and beat these games with any combination of NPC's is you try hard enough. If this is one you enjoy, that's great, but they're not the best.
For pure power without any consideration of the location of the characters I'd go with: Fighter/Mage charname Dorn Edwin Yeslick Coran Tiax
Tiax is a bit of a wild card but a second cleric and second thief fits this party really well and his summon ability and backstab potential with the staff of striking or +3 staff are very powerful.
The other 4 are just flat out obscenely powerful and often illegal.
Other options include Quayle, Faldorn and Baeloth.
My current party in BG1 steamrolls everything. Hell, they're so good I even replaced Coran with Tiax just because I wanted a pure evil party, and Coran is arguable better than Tiax.
Assassin/Mage Charname (bows + poison weapon, or BS+DoV+Poison, or poison+MMM etc) Dorn - Spider's bane Shar-Teel - Varscona + offhand Viccy - mostly slings + buffs Tiax - Summons and debuffs Edwin - Best mage in the game
Since the game is fairly easy, without SCS or any other mods of it's kind, I rarely even have to use the clerics so Viccy isn't used as much in battles. Also Tiax replaced Coran since he was outshined by the sheer killing power of Dorn+Shar. Tiax, however, is one of my favorite NPC's in the saga. My Charname takes care of all thieving duties, so neither Coran or Tiax really need to bother. Tiax has the gauntles of STR, so with a ankheg and staff he can actually melee really good from the backline.
Is this the best party? No prolly not, but it's ridiculously OP anyways. Personally I think that a charname F/C or FMC would make the best setup since IMHO, the cleric NPC's are the least good. There are alot of good fighters, mages and thieves in BG1, but only one F/C and he's fairly weak in his classes in comparison.
So, I think for a pretty optimal party build, neverminding just like @wowo where/when you get NPC's and only looking at NPC's stats/classes, I would go with:
Charname F/C or FMC Coran Dorn Shar-teel or Kagain, killing power vs durability. I lean towards Shar here. Kill faster = live longer. Edwin Baeloth
Draw on holy might, stoneskin, mirror image, blur, haste, 2x longswords. Quite powerful. All of his lvl 1 spells are reflected image, as they are instant cast and help keep him from being hit in melee.
Coran-fighter7/thief8 D20
Maxed out important thieving skills, has his *** in longbows. An amazing sniper. Has 2x Batalista Passports and the Gift of Peace, for 100% fire resistance. Why? Because why not?
Yeslick-fighter7/cleric7 S19/21 Dex18/20 Con17/19
Doesn't matter that his Int is 6 (went down from 7). He is a great tank, hits hard, heals and buffs.
Dorn- blackguard8 S19
Helm of opposite alignment so he fits into the good party (that's the kind of solution that a chaotic good mage would use, right?). Walks around with spider's bane and the army scythe. Poisons that which must be poisoned.
Ajantis- Paladin6 S18/00
The world's edge, so he swings from behind Charname and Yeslick, as he is somewhat squishy. He can add in protection from evil on the front tanks as need be. A late addition...and it turns out that he doesn't go after Dorn as long as the helmet stays on! He and Dorn actually hit for the same amount of damage (13-22), though Dorn has +2 THACO on Ajantis. Regardless, he's an extra chunker.
This still leaves a 6th spot, which doesn't really need to be filled. Before Ajantis I had Viconia, but I got careless in the Iron Throne party fight and she died. So I left the body behind as a red herring for the authorities. Bunch of dead guys, a single drow corpse. She had just joined the party so hard to track her back to Charname. More 'chaotic' than 'good', I suppose...
While Baeloth is without a doubt the best mage in the game, I'm tempted to run and grab Neera for the 6th spot. It's not like Charname needs any more experience, and some magical firepower could help.
Just checked again to make sure I was correct the first time. GOTURAL is wrong. Poison weapon definitely stacks. My charname and Dorn both popped it and the poison tick was effectively doubled. Poison weapon x2. Makes me wonder what it would be like running a full party of Blackguards and Assassins.
@FinneousPJ: it's confusing since @Stormvessel seemed so sure in himself when he said it stacked. I don't doubt @Gotural, but when it's one person's word against anothers', how should I know which one is correct?
Edit: I want to make it clear I know full well that poison attacks stack. My confusion is only about whether or not the actual use of the ability to poison weapon stacks.
I was sure of myself because I am 100% correct. Gotural is wrong. Poison weapon stacks. I just rechecked it because it's been so long since I made this thread. The result? Stacks. Stacked then and stacks now. I really don't know what Gotural was talking about.
Still pretty sure you can't BS with a two-handed sword in BG, and never could. I would have if I could in vanilla BG2 with some weird thief builds, but no, Carsomyr is too good to backstab with. mind you, you can with staves. SotR is a hard hitter!
Best BG1 PC is maybe a FI, rather than a FM. Yeah, the loss of Larloch's MD, Vampiric Touch, and Horror is harsh, but you can cast them as an evil PC as abilities if its that important. Shorty saves are really handy in BG1; death saves would have been better than borderline useless vs wands bonus, but spells are a real pain.
Dart using assassins, and fighter assassins, and blackguards uaing darts are all incredible. Most fights are done in a couple rounds, especially vs casters.
C/T is really beefy for a BG1 solo, but loses some luster in a party; they can nearly anything, so a party mainly gets in the way. Their melee does kinda require a PoHaste to be effective, but those last a long time, and they aren't rare later game. Esrly game Command owns pretty much.
I will never run an illusionist or fighter/illusionist. True, you can live without necromancy in BG1 but when you get into BG2 you will be missing out on Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and that I can not abide.
I will never run an illusionist or fighter/illusionist. True, you can live without necromancy in BG1 but when you get into BG2 you will be missing out on Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and that I can not abide.
Give up all the advantages of the gnome race and 9 extra spells to be able to cast one spell that you can have other characters cast anyway?
I will never run an illusionist or fighter/illusionist. True, you can live without necromancy in BG1 but when you get into BG2 you will be missing out on Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and that I can not abide.
Give up all the advantages of the gnome race and 9 extra spells to be able to cast one spell that you can have other characters cast anyway?
Yes. I despise gnomes. And the extra spells aren't everything. You can only cast once per round no matter what and there isn't any limitations on resting. People who make a fuss over extra spells in this game are retarded.
Just checked again to make sure I was correct the first time. GOTURAL is wrong. Poison weapon definitely stacks. My charname and Dorn both popped it and the poison tick was effectively doubled. Poison weapon x2. Makes me wonder what it would be like running a full party of Blackguards and Assassins.
@Stormvessel , you just didn't understand what @Gotural had meant. He said: "using Poison Weapon just after activating the first one doesn't do anything except refreshing the duration of the buff to 5 rounds.
However what can stack is the debuff, which means that if you hit the same guy twice while under the effect of Poison Weapon, he will get the poison effect twice. "
The thing you get, @Stormvessel , is exactly the stacking of defuffs resulting from different people with the Poison Ability hitting an enemy. What is not stacking is the additional uses of the same Poison ability by the same character - as soon as you activate it, it is active, and activating this ability once more by the same character doesn't increase the damage. But when you hit an enemy, each attack brings its own poison. You can do it with several people using this ability.
Just checked again to make sure I was correct the first time. GOTURAL is wrong. Poison weapon definitely stacks. My charname and Dorn both popped it and the poison tick was effectively doubled. Poison weapon x2. Makes me wonder what it would be like running a full party of Blackguards and Assassins.
@Stormvessel , you just didn't understand what @Gotural had meant. He said: "using Poison Weapon just after activating the first one doesn't do anything except refreshing the duration of the buff to 5 rounds.
However what can stack is the debuff, which means that if you hit the same guy twice while under the effect of Poison Weapon, he will get the poison effect twice. "
The thing you get, @Stormvessel , is exactly the stacking of defuffs resulting from different people with the Poison Ability hitting an enemy. What is not stacking is the additional uses of the same Poison ability by the same character - as soon as you activate it, it is active, and activating this ability once more by the same character doesn't increase the damage. But when you hit an enemy, each attack brings its own poison. You can do it with several people using this ability.
Thanks for clarifying. But...who ever said anything about popping it twice in a row? The subject was on my charname and Dorn, so I thought it was common sense that I was referring to both of us using it when I said it stacked.
Edit:
Looking back, maybe it did sort of seem like that's what I meant because I was speaking about Dorn alone. Though it's been quite a while since I made the post I'm pretty sure I was speaking about both my charname and Dorn using it, because that's how I played the game. I never recall even trying to pop it twice in a row.
Edit Edit:
Maybe that's what I did mean. It reads that way at least. Weird. I guess that's what I get when I try to come back and carry on an old conversation. I forgot my original train of thought.
I will never run an illusionist or fighter/illusionist. True, you can live without necromancy in BG1 but when you get into BG2 you will be missing out on Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and that I can not abide.
Give up all the advantages of the gnome race and 9 extra spells to be able to cast one spell that you can have other characters cast anyway?
Yes. I despise gnomes. And the extra spells aren't everything. You can only cast once per round no matter what and there isn't any limitations on resting. People who make a fuss over extra spells in this game are retarded.
Retarded is a very strong word and says a lot about your character.
You despising gnomes isn't very relevant in a thread about the best party possible. Gnomes are often referred to as the master race as they are incredibly strong for numerous reasons.
The extra spells matter a huge amount. It means that for a big proportion of the game you can cast your best spell twice as often (on levels where you get a new spell) or 50% more (when a normal Mage gets their second slot). That is massive. Whats better than one sleep spell? Two! What's better than one fireball? What's better than one improved haste? Two! What's better than one project image? One wish? One summon planetar? You get the idea, right?
I will never run an illusionist or fighter/illusionist. True, you can live without necromancy in BG1 but when you get into BG2 you will be missing out on Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and that I can not abide.
Give up all the advantages of the gnome race and 9 extra spells to be able to cast one spell that you can have other characters cast anyway?
Yes. I despise gnomes. And the extra spells aren't everything. You can only cast once per round no matter what and there isn't any limitations on resting. People who make a fuss over extra spells in this game are retarded.
Retarded is a very strong word and says a lot about your character.
You despising gnomes isn't very relevant in a thread about the best party possible. Gnomes are often referred to as the master race as they are incredibly strong for numerous reasons.
The extra spells matter a huge amount. It means that for a big proportion of the game you can cast your best spell twice as often (on levels where you get a new spell) or 50% more (when a normal Mage gets their second slot). That is massive. Whats better than one sleep spell? Two! What's better than one fireball? What's better than one improved haste? Two! What's better than one project image? One wish? One summon planetar? You get the idea, right?
Retarded indeed.
I have never had the slightest problem playing through both games using vanilla mages or fighter/mages. So more important is that you enjoy your character and it plays the way you want it to. Furthermore, if I am going to combine a specialist class with another class, I would argue that a kensai dualed to mage far exceeds a gnome illusionist any day of the week. If you are arguing strictly as far as multiclasses go, so be it. But you are arguing from a powergaming standpoint. And as far as powergaming goes, dualclassed mages far exceed fighter/mage multies.
Gnomes get shorty throws. That's it. The intelligence bonus is pointless because over 19 does diddly poo there is a tome to raise it. The only advantage is being able to combine a specialist mage in a multiclass. But multiclasses are inferior to dualclasses as far as mages go. So I don't get your reasoning. I don't get it at all.
Edit: there also isn't any proper voice sets for gnomes. Just...ugh. No thanks.
In addition, a 20/24 fighter/illusionist will have the EXACT SAME NUMBER of high level spells as a 13/28 Kensai/mage. The multi gets fighter HLAs and has shorty throws. The Kensage has Kai and more Mage HLAs.
I prefer the Kensage, as do most powergamers.
Edit: the kensage also has horrid wilting. Nuff said.
In addition, a 20/24 fighter/illusionist will have the EXACT SAME NUMBER of high level spells as a 13/28 Kensai/mage. The multi gets fighter HLAs and has shorty throws. The Kensage has Kai and more Mage HLAs.
I prefer the Kensage, as do most powergamers.
Edit: the kensage also has horrid wilting. Nuff said.
I don't see any clear consensus on these forums about F/I vs K->M. In ToB the F/I is clearly stronger with better thac0 and fighter HLAs. In BG1 the F/I is also clearly stronger not being a single class kensei. Bg2 has threads and threads written about it ...
K->M: 11 HLAs F/I: 18 HLAs with access to 8 of the level 10 spells.
Seriously though, if the F/I is getting as many level 9 casts as the K->M then what is the point at all of missing out on the HLAs, improving THAC0 and putting up with the downtime of a dual class?
Comments
Minsc: with spiderbane
Imoen: for traps and locks
Kivan: ring of free action
That fighter/cleric dwarf with another ring of free action.
I kill everyone with ease lol. I silence casters with bhaalspawn. I web fighters. I use melf minute meteors. Hold spells blind etc
MY Character= FIghter / Mage /Thief : Once he has Ghost Shield, Blur and Mirror Image, you can do some serious damage with him. Put all points into everything except Wis and Cha, The Charisma can be taken care of by Ajantis, and the Thieving abilities can be worked around. Once you get him into BG2, he will be a wickedly deadly character. A backstab with a two handed long sword for 100+ points damage. That is only one aspect of the deadly combination.
Minsc : Enough Said
Brawnwen : Spells and items can make here on par with a top notch fighter when needed. No need for the Fighter / Cleric.
Ajantis : High Charisma and Paladin abilities plus party spells can make him deadly and a great party member.
Dynahier : Great mage, I think better than Edwin as she can specialize and when having Neera, You have two powerful mages.
Neera: Yes the wild thing can be annoying but if played right she is potent and there are many benefits. Nothing like gating in a Demon and having protection from evil spells / scrolls available. And the wild surge can be devastating.
Edwin also starts with his über necklace and with Evermemory he is undoubtefully the best possible mage in BG1. Though he is evil of course and cannot be combined with Minsc. Edwin is IMHO even better than Baeloth due to his massive amount of spell slots.
Neera is good, wildmage adds a spell slot/level without opposing schools and the 5% wild surge can be funny and/or avoided with power word:reload, but she ain't better than Edwin. Of the non-evil arcane users she is probably the best though, excluding a dual-classed Imoen. I ain't counting Xan really, that guy is just so depressing and echanters aren't really the creme de la creme in BG, hehe
Two handed sword no.
@pcurtj1974: Can you put up a screenshot?
It is possible to do obscene damage with backstab, especially with qstaff. Maybe it was a staff and not a sword?
If you still have an old save and wouldn't mind booting it up for a spin, I would love to see a ss of it
I shelled out good money for the Enhanced Editions because I wanted a few simple things: the ability to play the game natively on my higher resolution, wide-screen monitor, some modest engine enhancements, and (critical) bug fixes.
I got those things, for which I am very grateful. We got the Black Pits too, which is a perfect addition (a nice option, and one which is completely ignorable).
Unfortunately, we also got a lot of amatuer-hour, mod-like stuff that I personally do not appreciate being baked into the game in a non-optional manner.
A couple of for instances:
Algernon's Cloak nerf. Bad BeamDog, bad! That cloak had been the way it was since day one and was a keystone item for many challenge runs. No one was forced to use it if they thought it was "cheesy".
The Blind spell causing foes to wander around. Seriously? Try closing your eyes and running around in close quarters and/or uneven terrain with people actively try to do you bodily harm with weapons and see how far you get. If anything, the original behavior was being generous in that a blind opponent should probably be a one hit kill (in RL and P&P rules).
Flesh Golem Cave resting respawn nerf. I could go on for hours about just this point alone. Firstly, I like respawning monsters in general as, to me, it makes the game world seem more alive. Nothing is worse than every map in an RPG becoming depopulated forever in the wake of your character. Not only is this a case of unwarranted nanny-meddling, but the manner in which it was fixed did nothing!
And so on, and so on, like the Mirror Image nerf (BG1), and other pervasive spell/item tinkering, widespread store/store inventory changes, etc. etc.
On the other hand, when it comes to "their" stuff, we get a bunch of overpowered trash like the Doom Guard, the introduction of inventory Bags, ammo stacking (though they made throwing daggers weigh a ton as to be useless), and annoying and intrusive NPCs. Seriously, Neera is worse than Nalia when it comes to pestering me, and Rashaad actually helps you kill Nimbul... Dorn, funny enough, is the least offensive of the lot.
I could go on and on. I don't want to sound unappreciative, as I do actually love many of the things you have done, but BeamDog, you guys have been entrusted with the care of a beloved and classic game. Please quit screwing with it. If you want to mod, then do that for goodness sake.
(Sorry for hijacking this thread a bit. I *was* just going to give my opinions on the addition of the Doom Guard, but I've been *trying* to enjoy these Enhanced Editions lately, but it seems at every turn I encounter another unwanted, and unwarranted change to the game I love and remember...)
Although it's always good to listen to a good critique, you have to try and avoid any disinformation.
One of the things you mention is not at all "amatuer-hour, mod-like" stuff, but in fact, a bug fix.
The original had a buggy per/day implementation which allowed the Algernon's Cloak to underflow from 0 to 65535. Some people tend to use beneficial bugs. But it doesn't change the situation that when something that turns 65535 from 0 after one use, is simply a bug.
So, Beamdog fixed the bug with the Algernon's Cloak, not nerfed it.
http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/201312/#Comment_201312
As for the Flesh Golem Cave spawn change, Carrion Crawlers still give enough XP that it's worth it to rest and continue to farm them. I see absolutely no reason to hate BGEE just because you can farm Carrion Crawlers instead of Flesh Golems in the cave.
Also, the the main impetus for the change was that the flesh golems are constructs, not natural creatures wandering the wilderness.
http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/342134/#Comment_342134
This was a design decision, as was the blind spell change (http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/604439/#Comment_604439) The EE version of the spell leads to situation when blinded enemies are a little bit more dangerous to the party than the non-EE version. I see it as a good change, more realistical if you ask me - why on Earth a blinded man should stand still without moving?
To me, the changes the EE has brought, actually serve the game well. Mind you, if you don't like the behavior brought by the EE, you always have all possibilities to play the vanilla game still.
As for NPCs, it's a question of personal taste, to say the least. I for one don't find Neera a pestering person, not at all. In fact, during a romance with her, charname gets a feeling close to the feeling you get in the real life relationships. I think that Neera is rather free from the behavior of your character point of view and doesn't look or sound like Nalia, not at all.
What's wrong with Rasaad helping you to kill Nimbul? I don't see it as a slight reason to hate an NPC. If you take Rasaad into your party, if you talk to him, if you complete his quests in BGEE and BG2EE, you'll see that this character is well written and there're interesting moral things you have to deal with, with difficult life choices.
You say "you shelled out good money for the Enhanced Editions because you wanted a few simple things: the ability to play the game natively on my higher resolution, wide-screen monitor, some modest engine enhancements, and (critical) bug fixes."
To me, this is entirely what Beamdog did - they let you play your favourite game on higher resolustion, with wide monitors, with engine enhancements (the Quick Loot bar, the much detailed descriptions on the character sheet, a transfer of weapons from BG1 to BG2, romances in BG1 and the transfer of them into BG2, green markers for the known/unknown spells, free switching from the arcane to the divine spell books) and critical bug fixes.
I like EEs a lot and very much see how much work Beamdog put into it.
2. Minsc is outshone in every way by Dorn. He has immunities, better stats, and useful class abilities. Minsc has a hamster... while Minsc is a fun character and many people like him, he is not the best by any stretch of the imagination.
3. Branwen will never be a top notch fighter because she only ever gets 1 attack per round. Fighters get more than 1 attack... once they have at least 2 attacks per round they're twice as good as her in combat. Yeslick is much better simply because he is a fighter/cleric but also because his innate dispel magic is great, he gets bonuses to all his saving throws while Branwen does not, and het gets more attacks and a better Thac0. Heck, even Viconia is better because she gets magic resistance. Branwe, while I like her as a character might be the worst cleric in BG1.
4. Edwin is also a specialist mage, she like Dyanheir he gets the additional 1 spell per spell level of a specialist mage. However, Edwin is a Conjuror which is arguably the best specialization since it gives up the ability to cast Divination spells. Most divination spells have a counterpart on the divine spell list or are easily replaceable by another ability (detect illusion thief ability, high lore for identification etc.) Dynaheir is an Invoker which might be the worst specialization because it gives up Enchantment spells. Enchantment spells are soo good in BG1. So she gives up such amazing spells as:
Sleep, the auto-win spell for at least 50% of the game... and it onle takes a 1st level slot.
Hold Person, another auto win and works aginst some tough encounters that sleep doesn't.
Dire Charm, make the bad guys into good guys to crush your enemies with
Greater Malison, while not amazing in BG1 many encounters in BG2 are extremely harder with this spell.
Confusion, aka make the baddies run around and kill themselves while you go get a snack.
Emotion: Hopelessness, or Emotion: Lie There and Take It.
These are just some of the examples.
On top of that Edwin's amulet gives him an extra spell of each level he can cast, meaning he has way more spells than Dynaheir could ever dream of, and a better specialization to boot. Dynaheir may actually be the worst mage in BG1.
5. Counting on specific wild surges is like hoping for your enemies to spontaneously combust, you cannot predict with any certainty when you will summon in a demon. That said, Neera is a powerful mage because she gets the extra 1 spell per spell level of a specialist without losing an opposed school. Also, you can pull off some shenanigans with Reckless Dweomer.
I'm sorry to say but that is definitely far from the best possible party composition. If it's a group you like to play though, more power to you. You can play and beat these games with any combination of NPC's is you try hard enough. If this is one you enjoy, that's great, but they're not the best.
Fighter/Mage charname
Dorn
Edwin
Yeslick
Coran
Tiax
Tiax is a bit of a wild card but a second cleric and second thief fits this party really well and his summon ability and backstab potential with the staff of striking or +3 staff are very powerful.
The other 4 are just flat out obscenely powerful and often illegal.
Other options include Quayle, Faldorn and Baeloth.
Assassin/Mage Charname (bows + poison weapon, or BS+DoV+Poison, or poison+MMM etc)
Dorn - Spider's bane
Shar-Teel - Varscona + offhand
Viccy - mostly slings + buffs
Tiax - Summons and debuffs
Edwin - Best mage in the game
Since the game is fairly easy, without SCS or any other mods of it's kind, I rarely even have to use the clerics so Viccy isn't used as much in battles. Also Tiax replaced Coran since he was outshined by the sheer killing power of Dorn+Shar. Tiax, however, is one of my favorite NPC's in the saga. My Charname takes care of all thieving duties, so neither Coran or Tiax really need to bother. Tiax has the gauntles of STR, so with a ankheg and staff he can actually melee really good from the backline.
Is this the best party? No prolly not, but it's ridiculously OP anyways. Personally I think that a charname F/C or FMC would make the best setup since IMHO, the cleric NPC's are the least good. There are alot of good fighters, mages and thieves in BG1, but only one F/C and he's fairly weak in his classes in comparison.
So, I think for a pretty optimal party build, neverminding just like @wowo where/when you get NPC's and only looking at NPC's stats/classes, I would go with:
Charname F/C or FMC
Coran
Dorn
Shar-teel or Kagain, killing power vs durability. I lean towards Shar here. Kill faster = live longer.
Edwin
Baeloth
Elven fighter7/mage7
S19/21
D20/22
Con18/20
Int19
Draw on holy might, stoneskin, mirror image, blur, haste, 2x longswords. Quite powerful. All of his lvl 1 spells are reflected image, as they are instant cast and help keep him from being hit in melee.
Coran-fighter7/thief8
D20
Maxed out important thieving skills, has his *** in longbows. An amazing sniper. Has 2x Batalista Passports and the Gift of Peace, for 100% fire resistance. Why? Because why not?
Yeslick-fighter7/cleric7
S19/21
Dex18/20
Con17/19
Doesn't matter that his Int is 6 (went down from 7). He is a great tank, hits hard, heals and buffs.
Dorn- blackguard8
S19
Helm of opposite alignment so he fits into the good party (that's the kind of solution that a chaotic good mage would use, right?). Walks around with spider's bane and the army scythe. Poisons that which must be poisoned.
Ajantis- Paladin6
S18/00
The world's edge, so he swings from behind Charname and Yeslick, as he is somewhat squishy. He can add in protection from evil on the front tanks as need be. A late addition...and it turns out that he doesn't go after Dorn as long as the helmet stays on! He and Dorn actually hit for the same amount of damage (13-22), though Dorn has +2 THACO on Ajantis. Regardless, he's an extra chunker.
This still leaves a 6th spot, which doesn't really need to be filled. Before Ajantis I had Viconia, but I got careless in the Iron Throne party fight and she died. So I left the body behind as a red herring for the authorities. Bunch of dead guys, a single drow corpse. She had just joined the party so hard to track her back to Charname. More 'chaotic' than 'good', I suppose...
While Baeloth is without a doubt the best mage in the game, I'm tempted to run and grab Neera for the 6th spot. It's not like Charname needs any more experience, and some magical firepower could help.
I find this party to be pretty powergamey.
Best BG1 PC is maybe a FI, rather than a FM. Yeah, the loss of Larloch's MD, Vampiric Touch, and Horror is harsh, but you can cast them as an evil PC as abilities if its that important. Shorty saves are really handy in BG1; death saves would have been better than borderline useless vs wands bonus, but spells are a real pain.
Dart using assassins, and fighter assassins, and blackguards uaing darts are all incredible. Most fights are done in a couple rounds, especially vs casters.
C/T is really beefy for a BG1 solo, but loses some luster in a party; they can nearly anything, so a party mainly gets in the way. Their melee does kinda require a PoHaste to be effective, but those last a long time, and they aren't rare later game. Esrly game Command owns pretty much.
However what can stack is the debuff, which means that if you hit the same guy twice while under the effect of Poison Weapon, he will get the poison effect twice. "
The thing you get, @Stormvessel , is exactly the stacking of defuffs resulting from different people with the Poison Ability hitting an enemy. What is not stacking is the additional uses of the same Poison ability by the same character - as soon as you activate it, it is active, and activating this ability once more by the same character doesn't increase the damage. But when you hit an enemy, each attack brings its own poison. You can do it with several people using this ability.
Edit:
Looking back, maybe it did sort of seem like that's what I meant because I was speaking about Dorn alone. Though it's been quite a while since I made the post I'm pretty sure I was speaking about both my charname and Dorn using it, because that's how I played the game. I never recall even trying to pop it twice in a row.
Edit Edit:
Maybe that's what I did mean. It reads that way at least. Weird. I guess that's what I get when I try to come back and carry on an old conversation. I forgot my original train of thought.
You despising gnomes isn't very relevant in a thread about the best party possible. Gnomes are often referred to as the master race as they are incredibly strong for numerous reasons.
The extra spells matter a huge amount. It means that for a big proportion of the game you can cast your best spell twice as often (on levels where you get a new spell) or 50% more (when a normal Mage gets their second slot). That is massive. Whats better than one sleep spell? Two! What's better than one fireball? What's better than one improved haste? Two! What's better than one project image? One wish? One summon planetar? You get the idea, right?
Retarded indeed.
Gnomes get shorty throws. That's it. The intelligence bonus is pointless because over 19 does diddly poo there is a tome to raise it. The only advantage is being able to combine a specialist mage in a multiclass. But multiclasses are inferior to dualclasses as far as mages go. So I don't get your reasoning. I don't get it at all.
Edit: there also isn't any proper voice sets for gnomes. Just...ugh. No thanks.
I prefer the Kensage, as do most powergamers.
Edit: the kensage also has horrid wilting. Nuff said.
F/I: 18 HLAs with access to 8 of the level 10 spells.
Seriously though, if the F/I is getting as many level 9 casts as the K->M then what is the point at all of missing out on the HLAs, improving THAC0 and putting up with the downtime of a dual class?