They were conquered by the Targaryens like everyone else and haven't openly practised slavery for 300 years. Balon Greyjoy tried to rebel as soon as the Targaryens were out of power but he was crushed by Ned and Robert. Their economy is mainly based on trading and fishing, they also travel far and pirate other ships but are careful not to provoke other houses when they do so.
So they're an island of fishermen and traders who are full of hot air and still see themselves as the scourge of the seas like their ancestors of a few centuries ago? That's how I see them, anyway don't want to derail the thread, but I always felt like GRRM made a bit of a boo-boo with them.
To be fair, the Greyjoys are a product of their own environment and as such generally don't know any other way to act beyond their own, as reflected in their words, ''We Do Not Sow''. In addition, they are separated from mainland Westeros, which means that they were always going to be more focused on the old days than the other Great Houses.
they also have almost no space for farmland so they couldn't sow if they wanted to.
Ha do you really think Martin would let the Targaryen's win? do you have any idea how many people love Daenerys and just how much Martin loves messing with people.
I'm aware of that. However, he seems to love Danaerys easily as much as any reader. Everything's being set up for her to return as saviour, and one by one, the other half-decent houses are being destroyed until there's nobody left for anybody to support except for her, and one of the vile ones like the Lannisters or Freys. Trust me, she's going to win. He wouldn't spend so much time focussing on her if she wasn't significant to the story in some way.
I think George is capable of anything, especially killing Danaerys . certain events in the later books throw the balance of power completely aside, the last book essentially ends on a cliffhanger for the entirety of Westeros with the future of almost every character in question. It was a masterpiece of confusion ,plots and counter plots, fan theories and careful attention to detail can explain some possible future events but it reinforces the fact that NOBODY is safe from GRRM.
[...]Trust me, she's going to win. He wouldn't spend so much time focussing on her if she wasn't significant to the story in some way.
While I potentially agree with you (BTW, you got an agree), I have to point out that GRRM spent a considerable amount of time on Ned in the first book. And we all know how well that played out for Sean Bean.
I'm aware of that. However, he seems to love Danaerys easily as much as any reader. Everything's being set up for her to return as saviour, and one by one, the other half-decent houses are being destroyed until there's nobody left for anybody to support except for her, and one of the vile ones like the Lannisters or Freys. Trust me, she's going to win. He wouldn't spend so much time focussing on her if she wasn't significant to the story in some way.
Wait, just because Cerci is a bad egg, the entire family is rotten? House Lanister 'Always pays their debt'. That seems pretty honorable. Even Jamie seems like a decent sort for the most part. Sure Jeofrey was a bad egg, but I put that down to Cerci more than anything.
[...] Wait, just because Cerci is a bad egg, the entire family is rotten? House Lanister 'Always pays their debt'. That seems pretty honorable. Even Jamie seems like a decent sort for the most part. Sure Jeofrey was a bad egg, but I put that down to Cerci more than anything.
I'd say it's the other way around. Ask the Raynes of Castamere how nice the Lannisters are...
Jamie starts the books by getting laid by his twin sister and shoving a 10 yo boy out of the window. The fact that he's at this moment in time a "decent" fellow is merely due to the trials and tribulations he went through - losing his hand, being disrespected by pretty much everyone because of the *small* detail of killing a king among others. He starts as a despicable character and develops into a more neutral one, but that doesn't make him good. Just makes him a Lannister like all the rest: opportunistic. Cercei plays the Game of Thrones very well, and that means she won't stop at anything to obtain whatever she wants. She was raised to be the Queen and when the King turned out to be Robert instead of Rhaegar she just plays along, and she goes to the extent of bearing her brother's kids to secure the throne - if Robert had not had any kids by her, he for sure would have thrown her away and married another one. How rotten is she? She had sex with her brother at her son's wake! She gets even more despicable in book 4 and 5, but eventually karma finds a way, at least partially. Tywin is the epitome of a Lawful Evil character in my opinion. He knows what he wants (to rule the Seven Kingdoms, which is not the same thing as being the king) and he does everything to achieve this. He's rotten to the core, so much so that he hates his third son for the sole reason that he's ugly. Doesn't matter how good a politician Tyrion is, in his father's eyes he will never be a Lannister. Could you just imagine anything less honorable than disowning your own kid for spite? He also swears Tyrion will never get Casterly Rock, knowing full well that Jamie and Cersei cannot inhered it due to the King's guard oath and for being a woman respectively. I'd say we all agree that Jeoffrey is a sadistic bastard and Chaotic Evil at heart. As for Myrcella and Tommen, they're just too young to be effectively evil.
I'd say probably the girl can still be saved if her upbringing continues in Dorne (unlikely due to events in the fifth book), but if Tommen is raised by his mom, I'd say we might have a Joffrey 2.0 in the nearest future
Tyrion is the exception, not the rule. And the exception was build on years and years of abuse and mockery. He behaves so much differently than other Lannisters because he was raised and always reminded that he in fact is NOT a Lannister to begin with.
So, "The Lannisters always pay their debt" can be read in two ways and the Lannisters rarely prefer the honorable one.
ediy: as @wubble said, King's guard, not gold cloaks.
I'd say it's the other way around. Ask the Raynes of Castamere how nice the Lannisters are...
...(too long to repost all of it)...
So, "The Lannisters always pay their debt" can be read in two ways and the Lannisters rarely prefer the honorable one.
Yep...what he said. "always pays their debts" can mean honour, but it can also mean retribution.
Of course, SoIaF doesn't really work with absolutes, and sometimes the "heroes" do pretty nasty things, but on a relative scale, I think the Lannisters are definitely amongst the worst of the houses, surpassed only by the Freys.
He also swears Tyrion will never get Casterly Rock, knowing full well that Jamie and Cersei cannot inhered it due to the Gold cloaks oath and for being a woman respectively.
I think you mean Jamie's King's guard oath, the Gold cloaks are the city watch.
@Moradin - I don't disagree with you on most points. However, the picture that you paint with them I disagree with. The fact that Tyrion is a pretty decent person despite his upbringing, and Jamie is becoming a pretty decent person, and the house motto is "Lanisters always pay their debts", kind of suggest that THEY are the rule and that Tywin and Cercei (and Jeoffrey, but again I put that down to Cercei) are the exception.
I'd also point out that the reason Jamie is called Kingslayer is because he stood up and slew the tyrant. He didn't NEED to do this (other than his life might have eventually been at risk somewhere down the line). He did this more out of a sense of community and not because of being self serving, so there was always hints of his redemption.
As for Jamie pushing Bran, Love and sex can make you do strange things, particularly when you are in love with a crazy B---h like Cercei. I'm not saying that he is a sterling example of Lawful Goodness, merely that he isn't rotten to the core as much as Cercei is.
Cercei is evil all the way down the line.
As for Tywin, there's a difference between being EVIL and being a Bastard (not the literal kind). Tywin is absolutely the definition of Lawful, I'll grant you. He rules with an iron fist and his rule is absolute. I don't see him as the sadistic type that pulls wings off of flies for fun or anything. He protects his family (in a weird sort of way) and their right to rule precisely because he sees himself as the best and only person capable of doing so. Yes he is cruel to his children. That doesn't make him EVIL, merely a bastard. He paves the road as he sees he must, not because he is trying to intentionally hurt anyone.
@TheElf , *that's* what the OP came up with for a vote for Danaerys? And what does some weird incest mod about Imoen have to do with Danaerys?
Come on, people, DRAGONS.
Yes the dragons are amazing, but can you really fault me on the incest jibe? Daenerys father was Aerys II and his wife/sister was Rhaella, Targaryens have a long history of "keeping the blood pure", resulting in weaklings like Viserys III and mad bastards like Aerys II. So yeah Daenerys is as inbred as they come, she was probably going to end up married to big bro Viserys, but he sold her off to Drogo.
Ha do you really think Martin would let the Targaryen's win? do you have any idea how many people love Daenerys and just how much Martin loves messing with people.
I'm aware of that. However, he seems to love Danaerys easily as much as any reader. Everything's being set up for her to return as saviour, and one by one, the other half-decent houses are being destroyed until there's nobody left for anybody to support except for her, and one of the vile ones like the Lannisters or Freys. Trust me, she's going to win. He wouldn't spend so much time focussing on her if she wasn't significant to the story in some way.
I dunno, Danaerys has really bad decision making abilities, and you know who else had a habit of making really bad decisions Ned Stark that's who... Silly things Danaerys has done off the top of my head:
Trusting the witch who was brutally beaten and raped by her khalasar, to treat her husband's flesh wound.
Exiling Jorah Mormont.
Becoming enamored with Daario Naharis "honestly who trusts a sellsword?"
Locking up her dragons.
She's never spent any time trying to train her dragons and she's horrified when they kill some kid on a farm, uuhm yeah that's totally on her head.
There are other examples but I don't want to delve into spoiler territory.
Honestly I think she's afflicted with the Targaryen madness, the way she refuses to hear the truth about dear old mad dad, the way she handles bad situations and her earlier mentioned terrible decision making. Or I'm reading way too much into it and is just her being a 14 year old, at least I think she's 14 I know she was 13 when she was sold to Drogo, I can't recall how much time has passed from book 1 to book 5.
Also the Martells are pretty much untouched by the civil war, they might rally around Danaerys or they might remain "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken".
Trusting the witch who was brutally beaten and raped by her khalasar, to treat her husband's flesh wound.
Especially as all he had was a small cut on his chest which could easily have been either ignored or just wrapped in a bandage for a while. It didn't need the herbs and salves of a woman who was quite right to hate the dothraki.
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But I'm also rooting for Arya Stark, and to some extent, Margery Tyrell. (That old lady really knows how to play Game of Thrones.
BTW - that poll blurb for Danaerys is horrible. I don't even know where you got that.
Jamie starts the books by getting laid by his twin sister and shoving a 10 yo boy out of the window. The fact that he's at this moment in time a "decent" fellow is merely due to the trials and tribulations he went through - losing his hand, being disrespected by pretty much everyone because of the *small* detail of killing a king among others. He starts as a despicable character and develops into a more neutral one, but that doesn't make him good. Just makes him a Lannister like all the rest: opportunistic.
Cercei plays the Game of Thrones very well, and that means she won't stop at anything to obtain whatever she wants. She was raised to be the Queen and when the King turned out to be Robert instead of Rhaegar she just plays along, and she goes to the extent of bearing her brother's kids to secure the throne - if Robert had not had any kids by her, he for sure would have thrown her away and married another one. How rotten is she? She had sex with her brother at her son's wake! She gets even more despicable in book 4 and 5, but eventually karma finds a way, at least partially.
Tywin is the epitome of a Lawful Evil character in my opinion. He knows what he wants (to rule the Seven Kingdoms, which is not the same thing as being the king) and he does everything to achieve this. He's rotten to the core, so much so that he hates his third son for the sole reason that he's ugly. Doesn't matter how good a politician Tyrion is, in his father's eyes he will never be a Lannister. Could you just imagine anything less honorable than disowning your own kid for spite? He also swears Tyrion will never get Casterly Rock, knowing full well that Jamie and Cersei cannot inhered it due to the King's guard oath and for being a woman respectively. I'd say we all agree that Jeoffrey is a sadistic bastard and Chaotic Evil at heart. As for Myrcella and Tommen, they're just too young to be effectively evil.
Tyrion is the exception, not the rule. And the exception was build on years and years of abuse and mockery. He behaves so much differently than other Lannisters because he was raised and always reminded that he in fact is NOT a Lannister to begin with.
So, "The Lannisters always pay their debt" can be read in two ways and the Lannisters rarely prefer the honorable one.
ediy: as @wubble said, King's guard, not gold cloaks.
Of course, SoIaF doesn't really work with absolutes, and sometimes the "heroes" do pretty nasty things, but on a relative scale, I think the Lannisters are definitely amongst the worst of the houses, surpassed only by the Freys.
I'd also point out that the reason Jamie is called Kingslayer is because he stood up and slew the tyrant. He didn't NEED to do this (other than his life might have eventually been at risk somewhere down the line). He did this more out of a sense of community and not because of being self serving, so there was always hints of his redemption.
As for Jamie pushing Bran, Love and sex can make you do strange things, particularly when you are in love with a crazy B---h like Cercei. I'm not saying that he is a sterling example of Lawful Goodness, merely that he isn't rotten to the core as much as Cercei is.
Cercei is evil all the way down the line.
As for Tywin, there's a difference between being EVIL and being a Bastard (not the literal kind). Tywin is absolutely the definition of Lawful, I'll grant you. He rules with an iron fist and his rule is absolute. I don't see him as the sadistic type that pulls wings off of flies for fun or anything. He protects his family (in a weird sort of way) and their right to rule precisely because he sees himself as the best and only person capable of doing so. Yes he is cruel to his children. That doesn't make him EVIL, merely a bastard. He paves the road as he sees he must, not because he is trying to intentionally hurt anyone.
Come on, people, DRAGONS.
Daenerys father was Aerys II and his wife/sister was Rhaella, Targaryens have a long history of "keeping the blood pure", resulting in weaklings like Viserys III and mad bastards like Aerys II.
So yeah Daenerys is as inbred as they come, she was probably going to end up married to big bro Viserys, but he sold her off to Drogo.
Silly things Danaerys has done off the top of my head:
Trusting the witch who was brutally beaten and raped by her khalasar, to treat her husband's flesh wound.
Exiling Jorah Mormont.
Becoming enamored with Daario Naharis "honestly who trusts a sellsword?"
Locking up her dragons.
She's never spent any time trying to train her dragons and she's horrified when they kill some kid on a farm, uuhm yeah that's totally on her head.
There are other examples but I don't want to delve into spoiler territory.
Honestly I think she's afflicted with the Targaryen madness, the way she refuses to hear the truth about dear old mad dad, the way she handles bad situations and her earlier mentioned terrible decision making.
Or I'm reading way too much into it and is just her being a 14 year old, at least I think she's 14 I know she was 13 when she was sold to Drogo, I can't recall how much time has passed from book 1 to book 5.
Also the Martells are pretty much untouched by the civil war, they might rally around Danaerys or they might remain "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken".