Turn Undead mechanics

joluv

Does anyone know the details of how Turn Undead works? I read somewhere that a Good or Neutral Cleric can induce fear in undead that are two levels lower and destroy undead that are seven levels lower. I don't know whether or not that's true, but there's clearly also a random component.

Lord_Tansheron

That is pretty much how it works. Evil clerics also take control of undead instead of destroying them.

Note that levels of enemies may vary, which is probably where the randomness comes from. I'm not aware of an inherent random factor, though that could of course be the case.

Also note that in HoF mode in IWD:EE (and therefore probably in NM mode in BG2:EE as well), enemy levels are significantly increased. You will likely be unable to turn even the most common undead until EXTREMELY high levels.

elminster

Yes its true. The randomness comes from enemy levels varying.

hispls

For fun, either build up an evil priest to 40th level (or use a savegame editor) and "turn" one of the liches. Good times.

joluv

@Lord_Tansheron @elminster An example from today that makes me skeptical: The party is awakened in Temple Ruins by four Shadows. Level 10 Anomen turns undead. Three of the shadows get chunked, and one runs away. Anomen backs that one into a corner and keeps turning undead. Sometime in the next few rounds, it gets chunked.

I've seen stuff like that happen many times before, where Turn Undead affects the same enemy differently in different rounds. Whether or not it's random, there has to be something more complicated going on there.

reap_ii

Joluv

I have seen previously turned undead explode in later rounds as well. Also with viconia i have seen undead turned previously come under her control in later rounds.

elminster

The random variable then is luck.

I just had a level 10 cleric that I tested 5 times against 50 different shadows (shadow01.cre). Each time out of the 50 between 9-14 of them survived (shadow01.cre are level 3 for the record).

The moment I levelled up to level 11 and tested it all 50 blew up (this was repeated in subsequent tests).

I also tested a level 10 cleric with a luck spell and everyone blew up.

CaptRory

Does this mean you could hit a cleric with the Luck spell for this?

elminster

CaptRory said:

Does this mean you could hit a cleric with the Luck spell for this?

You could though the mage spell only lasts like 4 rounds.

CaptRory

Could be worth it if you know undead are going to pop up. I like finding somewhat unusual uses for early magic ^^

francis369

i found that turn undead at high levels was stupidly powerful. to the point that i was chunking named enemy's like the litch in the monastery on tob

Arunsun

The fact that it is only based on a level difference (and to a lesser extent, luck) makes it indeed powerful.
A level 33 (considering the maximum level for a PC mage is 31 in ToB) Lich is a powerful foe and represent much more of a threat to a level 40 cleric than a level 3 skeleton to a level 10 cleric. I've always thought Turn Undead was to be based on a ratio between the cleric level and the undead level rather than a difference.
Something like:
Ratio lower than 1.25: nothing happens
Ratio between 1.25 and 1.5: Fear
Ratio higher than 1.5: death/control

It would still be a little stronger early on but less strong at higher levels.



Just as an example:
Larloch (one of the most powerful beings in Faerun) is a level 32 lich. Meaning he would be utterly destroyed by a level 40 Cleric. That's just stupid.

lunar

Arunsun said:

The fact that it is only based on a level difference (and to a lesser extent, luck) makes it indeed powerful.
A level 33 (considering the maximum level for a PC mage is 31 in ToB) Lich is a powerful foe and represent much more of a threat to a level 40 cleric than a level 3 skeleton to a level 10 cleric. I've always thought Turn Undead was to be based on a ratio between the cleric level and the undead level rather than a difference.
Something like:
Ratio lower than 1.25: nothing happens
Ratio between 1.25 and 1.5: Fear
Ratio higher than 1.5: death/control

It would still be a little stronger early on but less strong at higher levels.



Just as an example:
Larloch (one of the most powerful beings in Faerun) is a level 32 lich. Meaning he would be utterly destroyed by a level 40 Cleric. That's just stupid.

How many lvl 40 clerics are there in the canon Forgotten Realms lore? I know of none. Bg2 end game is the epitome of power and such levels of power as a lvl 40 cleric are nigh unattainable to regular, real, canon, FR characters.

Lord_Tansheron

Pretty sure everything past lvl 30 is already WAY WAY up there in canon, like halfway on their way to godhood if not further. BG2 doesn't exactly follow the same progression.

Arunsun

It is true that I cannot think of pure priests with a higher level than 30 in canon. Only mages come to my mind (Hey Kasus, level 42 mage)

lunar

Arunsun said:

It is true that I cannot think of pure priests with a higher level than 30 in canon. Only mages come to my mind (Hey Kasus, level 42 mage)

One reason of this may be that leveling up to those high levels simply takes hundreds of years. It is impossible for a simple human cleric to survive that long. Mages tend to reach those levels because they get immortality:either by becoming a lich or simply being born lucky as a Chosen of Mystra. Elves live long but they have maximum level limitations in pnp because of this.

In bg2 game you can rise to lvl 40 from 1 in a years time or less. (Game time)

joluv

Turn Undead isn't working on Kangaxx the Lich, even after I cheated Anomen to max level. Shouldn't this work? I thought Kangaxx was only level 27.

Anduin

This thread... Unsettles me...

semiticgoddess

Some enemies are immune to turn. I believe the MINHP1 item also grants immunity to turn. Kangaxx is immune in both his forms. Same goes for Bodhi.

I don't see why. A level 30 cleric should already be able to trounce either one of them, even without Turn Undead.

Lord_Tansheron

I believe that as a lvl30 cleric, you should be arm-wrestling with gods (literally or figuratively) and not bother with minor mortal nuisances such as Bodhi or Kangaxx.

IIRC Clerics rarely even get to that high a level. A 30+ Cleric in PnP would be a force of global standing, and RIDICULOUSLY powerful.

GreenWarlock

I noticed when taking Kangaxx with Minsc and an improved haste super-mace-of-distruption (7 APR) that his first form did not seem as susceptible to the save-or-die-for-real effect as other liches, I think I killed him with genuine damage. The second demi-lich form fell on something like the 3rd strike though, just as I was about to get nervous So it would not surprise me if the first form does not actually register as undead.