Why Romance Jaheira?
Angmor
Member Posts: 1
Well, I suppose the title of this thread is a little bit of a misnomer. I can think of plenty of reasons why I'd want to romance Jaheira. She's easily one of my favorite characters in the Baldur's Gate saga. Which is why I continue to wonder, why would Jaheira be interested in romancing the player?
It somewhat baffled me when I learned she was a possible romance option in BG2. Now whenever I play BG1, she and Khalid are by far the most widely-traveled and experienced members of the party, and so I see Jaheira falling naturally into the role of 'team mom'. So wanting to romance her might make a certain amount of sense from a freudian standpoint, but why would she be at all attracted to the player? She's an experienced adventurer and a Harper, whose word carries weight in many powerful circles (or it used to), while you are just a snot-nosed kid from a library who just happens to have the devil for a parent. Which brings up another point of contention; while as far as I know her age is never explicitly mentioned, I get the idea that she is significantly older than the player. She is at least old enough to have experienced several different shifts of fate, going from a noble child, to a druid, to an adventurer, to a Harper, to happily married. Which is yet another thing. She was married to Khalid, and loved him very much, enough that his loss was devastating to her. Which, as a parenthetical, is something that bothers me about the game in general. Seems like Bioware was on a rampage for killing off the less popular halves of certain character pairings, and doing so offscreen. I understand the reasoning, but it still feels a little cheap to me. Anyway, I just can't picture Jaheira seeking another relationship so quickly after losing the person with whom she expected to spend the rest of her life, especially on top of all the things I've just mentioned. Her first couple of romance talks betray a fairly obvious attraction toward the player, sure, but it just seems strangely forced and oddly timed; fanservice more than anything else. Jaheira is a wonderful character, but I just can't find a way that romancing her makes any sense from a roleplaying perspective.
Am I missing something here? Would some of these things be explained if I actually went through the complete romance? I am not at all familiar with the DnD canon outside of Baldur's Gate, so is there something there that I'm missing? I would love to hear some of the opinions out there.
It somewhat baffled me when I learned she was a possible romance option in BG2. Now whenever I play BG1, she and Khalid are by far the most widely-traveled and experienced members of the party, and so I see Jaheira falling naturally into the role of 'team mom'. So wanting to romance her might make a certain amount of sense from a freudian standpoint, but why would she be at all attracted to the player? She's an experienced adventurer and a Harper, whose word carries weight in many powerful circles (or it used to), while you are just a snot-nosed kid from a library who just happens to have the devil for a parent. Which brings up another point of contention; while as far as I know her age is never explicitly mentioned, I get the idea that she is significantly older than the player. She is at least old enough to have experienced several different shifts of fate, going from a noble child, to a druid, to an adventurer, to a Harper, to happily married. Which is yet another thing. She was married to Khalid, and loved him very much, enough that his loss was devastating to her. Which, as a parenthetical, is something that bothers me about the game in general. Seems like Bioware was on a rampage for killing off the less popular halves of certain character pairings, and doing so offscreen. I understand the reasoning, but it still feels a little cheap to me. Anyway, I just can't picture Jaheira seeking another relationship so quickly after losing the person with whom she expected to spend the rest of her life, especially on top of all the things I've just mentioned. Her first couple of romance talks betray a fairly obvious attraction toward the player, sure, but it just seems strangely forced and oddly timed; fanservice more than anything else. Jaheira is a wonderful character, but I just can't find a way that romancing her makes any sense from a roleplaying perspective.
Am I missing something here? Would some of these things be explained if I actually went through the complete romance? I am not at all familiar with the DnD canon outside of Baldur's Gate, so is there something there that I'm missing? I would love to hear some of the opinions out there.
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Comments
The only caveat that I can think of is that CHARNAME is really special. CHARNAME may have charisma so high that regular relatable social dynamics are skewed. Further, he has the blood of a god. Perhaps that shifts the paradigm.
In fact, the two thirds of the romance are actually a bromance - she wants to be closer to you because she respects you , and you want to be close to her because she is your dear friend.
In real life, when a sudden romance happens because of a recent loss, it is usually transitory and ends up with both sides learning from their mistake. Perhaps Jaheira's romance epilogue should have ended that way?
But as @DJKajuru said, and as I can tell from some personal experience, such romance is usually doomed to fail, mostly when everytime you think of you early moments with that person, it reminds you of what you have lost. Unless Charname has an exceptionnal Charisma (I might want to take some lessons from him
On the other hand, she is a demi-elf, meaning she has a long life. She must already have been through some similar trials and will have to overcome other obstacle in her life.
This while a really shitty situation gives Jaheira and CHARNAME a reason to engage each other, a reason to try and fix each other and the base for a relationship to grow out of their mutual pain and loss.
I don't know how worldly you are, but I can tell you that I've boffed a fair share of married women so there's absolutely no reason that there wasn't some attraction/chemistry brewing for the previous year or so of BG1 events traveling together in close company or in whatever time has passed between the two stories. Whatever she may or may not feel for Khalid there may well be something between her and Charname as well. It certainly wouldn't be the first or last love triangle in fantasy or IRL.
There's absolutely nothing to suggest that you weren't boinking her in BG1 when Khalid wasn't looking (Gods know that panty-waist wasn't delivering in the bedroom), and in BG2 you've got her in a pretty vulnerable position.
Furthermore, some people simply don't stay single for long. Jahira doesn't really come off that way from what we see, but that's not out of the realm of possibility. Also people make very irrational and impulsive sex/love decisions when faced with constant threat of death at any minute. This is natural evolutionary strategy... at the animalistic level we KNOW that in times of war we may be dead tomorrow so it is imperative to pass along our DNA as quickly and as often as possible.
Lastly, Charisma notwithstanding, being the bastard child of a God makes Charname very powerful (as does the events of both games) and power is very attractive. Consider how many 70 year old billionaires get a 10 piece mid 20 year old wife. Age also becomes irrelevant.
Yes, certainly not really natural and you do make some valid points but far from implausible.
Relationships are dynamic. The romantic love you have for someone today can be the familial love tomorrow as your relationship with them changes. The love between friends and comrades can turn into something else, especially when powerful outside forces change the circumstances (I.E. violently killing Khalid, ripping Imoen away, etc. etc.)
People don't fall into neat little boxes. Grief doesn't follow neat little stages in order. Jaheria's romance may be... unusual but I don't think they did it wrong, it is just a bit off from what people are used to.
Maybe that's why we can't raise Khalid from the dead.
Abdel...
(1) No bouncing back with Jaheira, Aerie, Viconia, Neera...not even Mazzy!
(2) I'd look to the well being of my children. If that means threatening to cut someone, then so be it.
(3) Unlike Cernd, I'd leave Charname's a$$ behind to take care of my children, rather than letting someone else raise them in my absence.
(4) I'd mourn.
That's me. And I think that I can speak for any sane spouse out there when I say that carnal lusts are but one facet of a loving relationship, and when a loved one dies, very very very few people would preserve a spouse's body for that purpose. Burial comes to mind. Or in Jaheira's case, running like heck to get out of a dungeon after saying a prayer for the lost.
And for people falling back in love again, I'd guess that there are multiple ways. But ones that are purely physical, as you seem to be hinting, probably aren't going to last. Because that sounds to me like it is a way to try and stop the pain, rather than really moving on.
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I haven't done the Jaheira romance in many years, but from what I remember it seemed legit. She suffers a horrific loss that shakes her and causes intense pain. She is traveling with someone that recently suffered his own great loss (the loss of his father, Gorion). She was there for him during the mourning process, and he is then there for her while she mourns over Khalid. The respect turns into affection, and the two eventually become a couple.
It reads to me as if though it is a relationship built upon a foundation of mutual support, implicit trust (with each other's lives), and a shared goal (revenge upon Irenicus). Lust doesn't seem to be any kind of factor.
It's not like she requires 18 Cha...
A physical/sexual relationship for comfort in Jaheira's situation would make sense. A love match does not.
Jaheira's sudden play for CHARNAME, in my opinion, is not only abrupt and nonsensical (and blatantly only done for fanservice because people liked Jaheira in BG1 and didn't like Khalid) but also disrespectful (in character) to both Khalid and Gorion.
Her husband Khalid because she was married to, and in love with, him for decades by BG1. And a week after his brutal murder there she is cosying up with someone new; if he was buried his body wouldn't even be cold yet when she begins making a play for CHARNAME - my first playthru I got her first lovetalk within the DAY of finding Khalid's dead body. The day.
It's also disrespectful to Gorion because Jaheira and Khalid had agreed to become stand in guardians for CHARNAME in the event of Gorions death; in essence she is CHARNAMEs godmother. You do not enter into a sexual relationship with your ward if you have any respect for the person who gave that ward into your charge.
Additionally the age difference (shes old enough to be his grandmother) combined with Jaheira's unofficial godmotherhood of CHARNAME makes the romance pseudo-incest which is just creepy.
However, I must say that you were a bit judgemental when you wrote:
"disrespectful fo both Khalid and Gorion"
According to Jaheira's dream, Khalid did approve the relationship. And so would Gorion, in my opinion, since Jaheira is a harper with the best of intentions for Charname.
"his body is not even cold and she starts making a play for charname. I got her first lovetalk within the day of finding Khalid's dead body"
That wasn't a lovetalk , she was commenting about the loss of Khalid and Gorion, and having dreams about her late husband, and telling about her past. That's friendship, not romance.
"Additionally the age difference"
She's half elf, but if she were human she would be a woman in her mid to late thirties . Most relationships occur with such a difference.
"you do not enter into a sexual relationship with your ward if you have any respect for the person who gave that ward into your charge"
But she did not look at charname with sexual intentions. Actually, she becomes actually interested in a romantic relationship nearly at the end of the romance. As for being her godmother, well, if charname were young and innocent , maybe a teenager, then I would understand that she was taking advantage of him, but it seems that the protagonist is quite aware of the complications that dating Jaheira may get him into.
As for the age difference... Jaheira is a half-elf. Her parents were probably a good century apart. A 20-year age difference is nothing to her, especially when the younger party has proven to be both capable and responsible.
I would prefer if the original designers had Aerie and Viconia for male chars, and then had Anomen and Haer'Dalis for female chars.
I could also see Viconia and Haer'Dalis as bisexual characters. While Aerie and Anomen are the more typical straight and conservative types.
I think that would be a good balance to satisfy people of both genders and different sexualities.
It's cool if people like it. I just don't unfortunately, for the reasons that I stated. It just feels wrong to me.
You mentioned the dream she has where Khalid gives his approval but honestly to me that read/felt like her own subconscious trying to excuse her actions that she knows to be ... wrong; and trying to make herself feel better about it.
The closest male next to her is almost always charname, and if he proves himself to be a noble sort, helps her through her grief, and ordeals with old slavers/Harpers, in the end, she sees no wrong in the romance. She struggles, but she perseveres and overcomes. And as long as she and charname are happy, who can judge them? Tey are travelling adventurers, always ready to die a most horrible death, or lose each other forever. In such situation, after their ordeals and struggles, they prefer to live the moment and be there for each other as long as they can. I also see no wrong in it.
If it was like 'you know, my husband died and I feel horny, let's do it!' İt would have been ugly and not a 'romance', and Jaheira is not a woman like that. She is the one npc I respect the most.
I really wish that the "Jaheira romance" was more of a "Jaheira friendship" or as @Archaos suggested, they just replaced her content with Haer'Dalis.
Half-Elves live for about 300+ years.
And just like Elves, they don't go into relationships that often or that quickly.
The whole Jaheira romance feels like she's an insecure young girl and you're her rebound to get over Khalid.
And exactly because she is a Half-Elf, a Druid (wise) and more mature/mother-like, she should have taken her time to get over it and made peace with it, without having to romance her.
Also, Haer'Dalis SCREAMED for a romance. He's the suave and confident type (like Coran). He's also unique since he's a Tiefling from another Plane. Nevermind that he just fits in every kind of party.
because love is love, you know... it doesn't matter if you are not supposed to be together.
but this is more akin to a real world than a fantasy one: why would a soul that had been truly bonded to another one turn on that relationship whilst they have a certainty of an eternity together? that baffles me...
She is not like 'Oh dear, did you cut yourself again? Come, honey, let auntie Jaheira kiss it good-bye.' and all cuddly-bubbly in bg1. That would have been super creepy come bg2.
*runs*
The age gap is largely insignificant. Age is just a number, particularly in a world where elves, gnomes, and dwarves, who can be centuries old, mingle with humans and others races that live for decades at most. Everybody, especially a worldly adventurer like you or Jaheira, is somewhat socially attuned to this fact. Also, you and Jaheira are skilled adventurers. You're at a level of fitness most people can only dream about. She only barely looks older than you. Healthy, active people are prone to looking younger than their actual age would suggest.
Speaking of temporal issues, the games canonically take place over much longer periods of time than you may or may not finish them. Sure, you could do a really efficient BG1 run and only barely ever rest or travel, and finish the game in like three weeks of in-game time, but in reality the main quest would probably take several months at least. Same for BG2.
@Jarrakul Pretty much explained mourning Khalid already, so I won't get into that, other than to say that Jaheira's way too strong to be kept down by grief for long, especially with a close friend like CHARNAME helping her along.
in game biography:
Baldur's Gate takes place in 1368. As we can see in her biography as well, she was born into the Tethyr civil war and escaped when king Alemander died in 1347. She was taken to druids where she "grew up" with them, suggesting she is still a child with growing up to do. According to 2nd edition, half elves have a minimum starting age of 16 for adventuring, same as humans, so I would go no higher than that (and would certainly not go with exactly 16) although they can still, of course, live longer. Considering this, I would place her age minimum at 21 and maximum at 37, though probably somewhere in the middle. 21 seems too young to have any amount of experience, and 37 she wouldn't really do much growing up with the druids. At that point I would just say she was taught by them. Now, I am no expert on half elf adults maturing. It seems weird to me, actually, that they have the same starting age yet have a longer lifespan. Anyway, if you want to compare the romance options in a lifespan wise way comparable to humans, I think Jaheira would be the youngest, and Vic is certainly the oldest and yet she never has it mentioned. In a numerical way hopefully everyone could already see that Aerie and Vic have lived more years at least.
Anyway, from what I've read, we've also talked a lot about the duration of the game, which is an extremely valid argument. If you pay attention to the days passed on your save files, there'll certainly not be much time at all for her to get over Khalid and move on to you. Honestly, looking at game time, I have the problem that I think everybody starts a relationship with you much too fast to feel right, but the Khalid situation is just extra to make Jaheira seem worse. With that in mind, as I am not a fan of Aerie or Vic for romantic purposes, I generally have it in my head as I play that the time throughout the story is much longer. I mean, you can make it across the map and lose a day in game. I like to imagine my journey is on a more epic scale than that, and it makes it feel a bit more right with the Jaheira romance. That said, the romance is still well made to bring the romance together in my opinion. You have tension for charname and Jaheira, you each help each other out in different situations (mostly you helping Jah I guess, though she does help you in the first harper battle when she doesn't have to) and these things I think bring you both together until it just happens. I would generally like to hold off from that merchant in the docks for a bit so as to let some of that stuff happen first. Then, in the last dialogue, there is the one moment where this seems less like a friendship and more of a romance. Personally, I wish she didn't have to ask to sleep with me, but I am glad I can turn her down because I still feel like the time isn't right.
I end this post by saying: some of us have seen how this could've been worse. It isn't actually as bad as many say, especially if we are talking a human charname. Bioware also at least made an attempt to build the relationship before the romance, but the game just doesn't have a very long time frame.
also, after looking up a bit, I really like what @lunar and @schneidend had to say.