Swashbuckler, Good or Bad?

ghettohoodie

Are they worth the time and the party member slot?

Gallowglass

They're commonly favoured as the first class of a dual (especially Swashbuckler->Mage, but other duals from Swashbuckler are also viable).

As a class to stick with throughout the game ... they're less outstanding than when used as the basis for dualling, but nevertheless definitely a worthwhile class, IMO. If you want an excellent Thief which can develop throughout the saga, but you find backstabbing too unreliable and/or too much hassle to use regularly, then a Swashbuckler is the logical choice.

So I reckon the answer is yes.

Arunsun

Swashbuckler are unworthy unless dualed in my opinion. If you do want a dual wielder that is not a warrior, go for a blade instead. They do as good as swashbuckler in terms of damages and exchange low level trap and some AC for mage spells (amongst which some that will protect you way better than more AC). Not to mention the insane Mislead/ improved bard song combo.

st_live418

Once Swashbucklers level up quite a bit they can be quite capable as worthwhile damage dealers. I wouldn't use one as a tank, but if you're looking to add some damage to your frontline (and get use out of their thieving skills) they're one of my favorite choices.

Lord_Tansheron

Swashbucklers to me are the thief option you go with when you really just want a lock-picker/trap-popper. They are probably the best thief kit to dual from, and work well with either mage or fighter as the second class.

A pure Swashbuckler can be powerful, though. Their kit bonuses do not diminish in frequency (as, say, an Archer's) and being a Rogue they reach very high levels and consequently high numbers of bonuses. They do however require a bit of work to offset the low APR, which can mean sacrificing one of the +APR weapons you could otherwise give to someone else; they can however use SNT which I suppose you wouldn't give anyone else anyway. A bit of trouble against high-enchantment level defenses (as SNT is only +3) but if they can hit things they hit them HARD.

Personally I do not like pure thieves, but I love Swash->Fighter duals. If you want some shits-n-giggles and don't mind bending the rules, try EEKeepring a Fighter->Swash dual It's jaw-dropping melee power.

semiticgoddess

I've done some math and found that the damage output for Swashbucklers is a little lower than that of a Fighter/Thief. Swashbucklers get +1 to damage every 5 levels, and thieves gain levels pretty quick.

It's worth pointing out, though, that the Swashbuckler is a thief and much of its utility comes from its thief abilities rather than its damage output.

st_live418

As a side note, if you intend on using mods RR changes Swashbucklers to progress at a fighters THA0 table if I'm remembering right. This can also make them an even more viable class in terms of damage output.

joluv

Swashbucklers are sometimes Good, but they're never Lawful Good.

lunar

At high levels, swashbucklers can have ridiculously low ac. Their innate bonuses give +8 ac bonus at lvl 40, and with use any item HLA, they can wear the heaviest enchanted armor, the biggest shield, and use mage scrolls to walk around with -20 ac or so, easily. It locks away their thieving skills but you don't need thieving skills while fighting. Their attacks per round don't matter if you use whirlwind attack all the time, and their natural +8 to hit and damage bonus offsets whirlwinds -4 to hit and damage nicely. Strap them a belt of x giant strength and they will do massive damage while whirlwind attacking with the nastiest weapon you have, or even the holiest, like the fabled Carsomyr! Also, thief hla traps kill anything fast.

semiticgoddess

I'd like to see the character that isn't overpowered at level 40.

Jarrakul

I'm a big fan of the swashbuckler, and the AC is actually a big part of it. A high level swashbuckler is one of the only classes that can realistically AC tank. This makes them remarkably durable against physical damage (spells, on the other hand...). And, as others have noted, their attack and damage bonuses get quite high. You will definitely need APR weapons for them, though. Ideally two, but at least the Scarlet Ninja-to and a decent on-hand. As such, I wouldn't recommend pairing them with NPCs who have similar needs, like Haer'Dalis.

joluv

lunar said:

Strap them a belt of x giant strength and they will do massive damage while whirlwind attacking with the nastiest weapon you have, or even the holiest, like the fabled Carsomyr!

Level 40 Swashbuckler with Carsomyr +6 and Belt of Hill Giant Strength has THAC0 0 during Whirlwind Attack. That's going to miss a lot in the endgame.

Jarrakul

True, but most of the things you'd want to hit with Carsomyr are mages, who are usually not fantastic in the AC department. If you're attacking something that's not a mage, you'd probably be happier using the Staff of the Ram anyway, which swashbucklers can actually be proficient in.

Lord_Tansheron

Pretty sure that once you have UAI, you can put points in any weapon. Or maybe that's just my mods, who knows.

Anyway, Carsomyr is something I did with my funky little Fighter->Swashy as well. Whirlwind of justice, after a fashion. Quite satisfying to watch, really.

Still, it's not something that makes me want to roll a pure Swashy. Yes they can be made to work, but then I ask myself why jump through all those hoops. Just make a Fighter hybrid instead.

Naten

I find pure Swashbuckler is much better than a dual class one. The amount of high level abilities a pure class gets far out ways anything a dual class can give in my opinion. Especially since you stay strong the whole game as well. The Use any Item ability is of course great but everyone uses that part differently (so many options) so I won't get into gear details too much. The main thing is Whirlwind that they can get, plus UAI, plus Insane traps, equals way better than dual classing. This is my opinion of course. I always use The Answerer in my main hand so Whirlwind giving -4 penalties doesn't sting one bit, and with all the Whirlwind abilities you get you do not need weapons that give extra attacks since your attacks are maxed regardless, unless you really want to. Pure Swashbuckler is actually my favourite class in the game, especially when his gear is well thought out, but mostly because he has so much versatility and just keeps getting stronger.

Wowo

I once soloed a dual Swashbuckler 26/Cleric 27.

Insanely powerful. Boring once the dual was complete. Fun project though to have a cleric proficient and able to use bladed weapons.

Lord_Tansheron

Naten said:

mostly because he has so much versatility

Could you elaborate on that? I don't find Swashies particularly versatile. In fact, they are rather one-dimensional - they hack at things until they fall over. They do that well, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't exactly call them versatile just because they get to use UAI.

semiticgoddess

Everything is versatile with UAI. And all thieves can fill multiple roles. Maybe a thief isn't quite as versatile as a mage, but they do have more to them than a simple fighter, of course.

Naten

Lord_Tansheron said:

Naten said:

mostly because he has so much versatility

Could you elaborate on that? I don't find Swashies particularly versatile. In fact, they are rather one-dimensional - they hack at things until they fall over. They do that well, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't exactly call them versatile just because they get to use UAI.

At max level they get a bonus +9 to AC and +8 to THACO and Damage. If they wanted to be a tank one day and wear some heavy armor and a shield they would have more defense than a Fighter. If they wanted to shoot a bow, with the Damage bonus and Whirlwind they do more Damage with the thing than a Fighter would with a bow and Whirlwind. If they want to cast spells well UAI and pick-pocketing allow them to steal or afford to buy as many scrolls as they want, which is plenty more than you will ever use, or you could even use wands. If you want to heal people or raise the dead he can do that too with Blessed Bracers or Priest Scrolls and Rods. Of course you cannot get the backstab multiplier but you still get a +4 to your first attack when your in stealth so being sneaky is still a good thing. High level ability traps allow him to use more strategy than any other class, this is true for any Rogue class though but with all the other advantages the Swashbuckler has and the only disadvantage being that you do not get the backstab multiplier which is useless against many opponents later in the game because of all the True Seeing being cast by opponents. Which even if it wasn't with all that you can do with the Swashbuckler why would you be afraid of actually having to fight anyone? Even though I use it alot less often the High level ability Greater Evasion gives a bonus +6 to AC and +3 to Saving throws is more beneficial to a Swashbuckler than any other Rogue class because of their naturally high AC making it a very useful skill if you ever do get in trouble. Using weapons that he has no proficiency in is also more effective with him than any other Rogue class because of his THACO and Damage boosts, which gives him options that Fighters do not have (Carsomyr and Staff of the Magi come to mind). And like all Rogues he can Detect Illusion which works the same as True Seeing which becomes very useful in TOB. Find and disarm traps is something only Rogues can do as well which is obviously a good thing to have. The ability to Use the monk's Headband of the devout and the Ranger's Montolio Cloak is also a very nice thing.. If you want to make the most out of a class there is alot the Swashbucklers can make the most out of.

ghettohoodie

lunar said:

At high levels, swashbucklers can have ridiculously low ac. Their innate bonuses give +8 ac bonus at lvl 40, and with use any item HLA, they can wear the heaviest enchanted armor, the biggest shield, and use mage scrolls to walk around with -20 ac or so, easily. It locks away their thieving skills but you don't need thieving skills while fighting. Their attacks per round don't matter if you use whirlwind attack all the time, and their natural +8 to hit and damage bonus offsets whirlwinds -4 to hit and damage nicely. Strap them a belt of x giant strength and they will do massive damage while whirlwind attacking with the nastiest weapon you have, or even the holiest, like the fabled Carsomyr! Also, thief hla traps kill anything fast.

How can the swashbuckler use the Carsomyr?

Lord_Tansheron

ghettohoodie said:

How can the swashbuckler use the Carsomyr?

"Use Any Item" HLA, of course.

Svar

I'm going to put my vote in for swashbucklers definitely being worthwhile. I don't think you have to dual-class them for that to be the case either. If you want a thief type that's a bit less squishy than the standard thief build, swashbuckler is the best option. I practically always use them as my main thief type in my Black Pits and IWD parties.

DullSkullTheSecond

I know this isn't a swashbuckler(pure) vs. fighter/thief but unless you really really really want to be human, fighter/thief should be the way to go. I personally haven't played swash but I've played fighter/thief and I don't see how a swash could even stand a chance. Swash will also have an uneven power curve because of the lack of backstabs + no heavy armor + no fighter thaco or con bonus + all the other stuff I missed.

Grum

Right now I am playing a swashbuckler(5) dualed to fighter.
He has 100 in detect illusions, which is a very useful skill for a fighter. Enemy Mage goes invisible or casts mirror image? Gone.
In addition he has +2 AC, Thaco and damage.

Overall it makes for a pretty fun character, and shows how someone growing up in Candlekeep and raised by a Mage could know a few of their tricks.

Lord_Tansheron

DullSkullTheSecond said:

I've played fighter/thief and I don't see how a swash could even stand a chance.

There are various aspects to consider for that comparison.

Swash can get OBSCENE damage bonuses at very high levels, enough to kill even most bosses (unmodded) in a single round with the right equipment. Those enemies are usually immune to backstab, as are many powerful enemies in general; liches, beholders, dragons etc. all cannot be backstabbed. I find backstab quite overrated, though that may have to do with my mods. YMMV, as always.

Personally, I like Swash for the simple reason of dualing it into a fighter. Swash->Fighter is my favorite Thief character, largely because it's so little Thief and so much Fighter. Essentially, you end up with a Fighter that has some combat/AC bonuses and can open locks/find traps. All I want, really.

Pantalion

Overall I'd not say "Thief" was an optimal class for a single class character, and I think Dual Classing is silly in general, but I would certainly rank Swashbuckler to be as good as, if not better than, a regular thief, especially if you find the game's Backstab mechanics to be awkward and cheesy. Their attack and damage bonus applies to everything, so they're able to switch between being archery and TWF melee (that can wear Full Plate and helmets at level 24 to make them stupid tanky) freely, unlike more specialised roles, and the extra damage and hit chance are much more reliable than thieves that can contribute between 10 and 75 damage if they actually hit.

From the perspective of someone who likes to run Multiclasses with kits (which is legal in PnP) I find Swashbuckler/Mages to compliment one another very well, and unlike the other Thief kits the only thing necessary to keep them rules legal is just to avoid attacking with them from stealth, since the Backstab table doesn't get reduced correctly.

Yelocessej

One of my best friends played BG for the first time ever recently (I bought him EE as a gift). He liked the idea of playing a thief ("I want to steal everyone's $%&@, yo!"), so I suggested the Swashbuckler as a newbie friendly kit. He managed to get through the game with no real hangups with his kleptomaniacal halfling swashbuckler.

Grum

Lord_Tansheron said:

DullSkullTheSecond said:

I've played fighter/thief and I don't see how a swash could even stand a chance.

There are various aspects to consider for that comparison.

Swash can get OBSCENE damage bonuses at very high levels, enough to kill even most bosses (unmodded) in a single round with the right equipment. Those enemies are usually immune to backstab, as are many powerful enemies in general; liches, beholders, dragons etc. all cannot be backstabbed. I find backstab quite overrated, though that may have to do with my mods. YMMV, as always.

Personally, I like Swash for the simple reason of dualing it into a fighter. Swash->Fighter is my favorite Thief character, largely because it's so little Thief and so much Fighter. Essentially, you end up with a Fighter that has some combat/AC bonuses and can open locks/find traps. All I want, really.

Agreed! Only I prefer detect illusion. Right now my bg1 swash(5)/fighter(8) is rocking:

-11 AC
THACO: 1/5
Damage: 18-25 both hands
Unbuffed

He has Crit for 50 damage already. Walk into a room of 3 greater dopplegangers and see through their mirror image, then proceed to rip them apart without damage.

Throw on the greenstone amulet, along with his 90% fire immunity and 25% magic immunity, and there is almost nothing that can touch him.

I know that a buffed dwarven defender can solo Sarevok. Going to see if a swash/fighter can do the same.

Overall the swash/fighter has just made a new fighter kit. Which plays out really well, it is like the two were meant for each other.

cbarchuk

I have a hard time picturing a swashbuckler from a RP perspective wearing full plate, carrying a shield, and using scrolls. I really find UAI to break RP immersion in my opinion. When I think of a swashbuckler I think a lightly armored dual wielding pirate of sorts. A dashing fighter and scoundrel with lots of Charisma. Anything else seems incredibly out of place for the class to me like wielding Carsomyr for example. I've never actually played one though because I simply can't get into that type of character not because of how powerful they might or might not be mechanically. Just my 2 cents.

Nhull

Its a really fun kit. My first play through many many years ago was with an Assassin, but I enjoy the Swashbuckler a lot more.

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