Or you're better of with another Bard, because now you have twice the amount of more powerful spells, which means more power per combat round :P.
I wouldn't say the Bard is the overall better Spellcaster. The mage still is. I just want to clarify, that the Bard actually is quite good, and doesn't need any major improvements.
I do believe his songs need a little tweak, or else it's a useless feature, and that's awkward. Honestly, making it grew SIGNIFICANTLY stronger over the levels, and give the ability to use it while in melee, would be a good idea.
OR make more amor ,where you can still cast, available for them.
In BG2 all spellcaster will eventually be more powerful than the melee classes. So if you fant to 'fix' somone it should be the pure Fighter classes and kits for example. Because in the end, they don't stand a chance versus a buffed up Bard who knows how to use his spell arsenal. So, you see, this way the Bard is even a bit overpowered. But the ADnD classes aren't balanced in the high levels, therefore in BG2, they aren't as well. In the end it's all about flavour and playstyle, and it is still enjoyable this way, imho .
edit: though I can understand, that you don't like how Bardsong functions in the Infinity games. Having a character who can't do anything else while singing, isn't quite fun.
@GueulEclator Well, I think that if the songs were significantly stronger (like in Heart of Winter -- those were pretty good, as I recall), then it makes more sense to have to choose between singing and engaging in combat, as the coices would be more evenly matched...
In BG2 all spellcaster will eventually be more powerful than the melee classes. So if you fant to 'fix' somone it should be the pure Fighter classes and kits for example. Because in the end, they don't stand a chance versus a buffed up Bard who knows how to use his spell arsenal. So, you see, this way the Bard is even a bit overpowered. But the ADnD classes aren't balanced in the high levels, therefore in BG2, they aren't as well. In the end it's all about flavour and playstyle, and it is still enjoyable this way, imho .
indeed. Yet they lost their advantage in BG2, and their spell limitation would quickly make them far inferior to mages in terms of spellcasting. And unless you are a blade, even with buff you tend to avoid melee with the bard.
Really thought, I think the song would make this class even more original and amazing : the backdraw of a blade was supposed to be the fact that his song never improved, which means that the song was intended to be something strong, but black isle failed at it.
I would really love to see the song getting really more powerful with each new level (but significantly powerful) so that it adds even more variety to a bard play by encouraging you to use the song. It would also help the bard in BG 2 who is weaker, since the song would pack quite a punch at level 9.
Once you get the HLA Bardsong, it tends to become overpowered again. Plus you can abuse the hell out of it by casting an army of hasted Skeleton Warriors plus Mislead, let the Illusion sing the overpowered Bardsong and whack your way trough the enemies with your personal army.
Believe me, you can solo the whole game with a single Bard quite easily.
Yeah but the HLA bardsong was broken because it gave an unfair advantage to blade over the other kits, and it also made the skald useless.
And HLA was mainly for throne of Bhaal. Bards were OK in TOB, so thats not an issue.
I just had an excellent idea : why not adding more bard instrument into the games? INstead of having to buff the song, just allow the instrument to play stronger song.
As you progress, you find better instrument that all makes different songs.
That would allow for a big variety of playstyle, and would really help the bard (especially in BG2), and would actually make the bard song useful?
The Bard class isn't supposed to be all that powerful. When he doesn't play his song to keep the party from running away, he can help in several different ways - he can help in melee, attack from range and cast spells - not as good as other classes, but good enough to be useful along them. The Bard's advantage is in his versatility.
yeah that is true in BG 1, but not in the 2. His versatility is weak in BG 2 : his pickpocket is useless, his song is useless, his magical ability are weak, he is weak in melee (except blade again).
This description looks good on paper, but it's hardly a fact. If you don't pick a blade , in BG 1, you are going to end up using him solely as a spellcaster. His melee would be more advantageous if he could sing while melee + if his song was stronger.
I see nothing wrong in my last idea : making the song more useful wouldn't hurt. Making more items specific for bards that improve their song (like a harp...) and allows them to play different song depending on the situation would be amazing. It would open up a lot more play style possibility. I don't see how anyone could disagree, it would be a nice addition.
I'm all for more improvements to my favorite class, but I'm also fine with it the way it is. Then again, I'm not a fan of min-maxing since I already find the game easy enough with pretty much any sort of character.
As long as they add elven chainmail in BG1 at some point so that my bard can cast spells and wear armor would be amazing. Since they'll be adding the pause game function during inventory, I can't do the ol' switch on armor really fast so I don't die for a Hobgoblin elite trick.
As long as they add elven chainmail in BG1 at some point so that my bard can cast spells and wear armor would be amazing. Since they'll be adding the pause game function during inventory, I can't do the ol' switch on armor really fast so I don't die for a Hobgoblin elite trick.
If the response to my question on the AMAA is any indication, there will be. No longer must we kill Drizzt!
There aren't a lot of bard specific items. I honnestly never saw more than 3 instrument. ANd they sucked.
Bard song should be improved for all kit : -Either by improving it every level -adding several items that boost the song or allows to plays different song
In order to make the bard/skald/jester more polyvalent, he should be able to play the song while he is in melee, that would encourage players to use them in melee more often (except the blade again) instead of just having him spellcasting at the back.
@GueulEclator Well, I think that if the songs were significantly stronger (like in Heart of Winter -- those were pretty good, as I recall), then it makes more sense to have to choose between singing and engaging in combat, as the coices would be more evenly matched...
You actually got a bunch of different songs as you leveled in IWD2. That was really awesome.
@GueulEclator Well, I think that if the songs were significantly stronger (like in Heart of Winter -- those were pretty good, as I recall), then it makes more sense to have to choose between singing and engaging in combat, as the coices would be more evenly matched...
You actually got a bunch of different songs as you leveled in IWD2. That was really awesome.
It does, @Aliteri, but the Bard songs in IWD2 were totally original concoctions of the Black Isle dev team. They weren't from any ruleset that I'm aware of.
Unless you are playing a skald (and even there...), you are never going to play the plain bard song. You are never going to play the blade song either, and almost never the jester song either (almost no enemies, unless in the very beginning, will fail the saving throw).low level).
I'm afraid you got it backwards, friend. YOU will never use the plain bard song. I, on the other hand, did so frequently and intend to do it again in the future. It's not only a whole-party buff with no 'x per day' casting limit, it's also a whole-party resist/remove fear with no 'x per day' casting limit. Many a monster, including the fierce Mr. Firkraag, died very surprised that my party charged them with a song on their lips, rather than scatter in blind panic. And the sweetest thing of all happened to me in Hell - the Fear demon offered me some stinking cloak, and I could simply flip him a bird, pull out my trusty lute and dance through the lair of fear, singing of valor of my humble self. So if you don't appreciate the beauty of the bard class... well, your loss, friend.
@GueulEclator Well, I think that if the songs were significantly stronger (like in Heart of Winter -- those were pretty good, as I recall), then it makes more sense to have to choose between singing and engaging in combat, as the coices would be more evenly matched...
You actually got a bunch of different songs as you leveled in IWD2. That was really awesome.
Well that would be awesome if they do the same thing in BG EE. That way you would have a song that's actually worth something.
There's bard-specific armor in BG2 that the bard can use and still spellcast. And, given Kensai, no armor isn't that much of a deal, especially with UAI.
There's bard-specific armor in BG2 that the bard can use and still spellcast. And, given Kensai, no armor isn't that much of a deal, especially with UAI.
It does, @Aliteri, but the Bard songs in IWD2 were totally original concoctions of the Black Isle dev team. They weren't from any ruleset that I'm aware of.
I see. Still that initiative is in line with 3rd edition bard.
This in my opinion (and no jab intended to the OP) is why games being released today are rubbish. If every class etc. in a game is perfectly balanced the game is boring, especially in single player orientated games. I do understand the need for balance in mulitplayer orientated games.
I like the fact that some classes are weaker than others, that some classes level faster, that some classes start strong and end up mediocre and that some classes start super weak and end up power houses. It is what adds flavour to a game.
Today the players are so obsessed with balance that the devs seem to be "going with the flow" and you end up with games so balanced that they are borefests, or games that have had so much effort invested in the balance side of the game that the rest of the game is rushed and under developed.
I say leave the bard as it is. I often use bards, because they are not as weak as you claim, as others in this post have already mentioned. I often mix and match my parties when I have play throughs, variety keeps the game interesting and makes me have to readjust tactics/decisions quite often when replaying through for the 100s time.
Just my 2 cents in thoughts when it comes to "Balance!!!" in a single player game. I do think however things that are blatantly broken should be fixed, but the Bard aint broken and is a good class when used right.
I think the problem is alot of people take the Bard and expect a mage. They play the bard like another mage and that just doesnt work great. You need to play the bard as a bard.
The only buff I'd like to see to bards overall is some sort of lingering song like you were able to talent into in IWD2. Otherwise you have to use the auto-pause at the end of every round feature to make sure that it goes up.
Also in good news. In the AMAA someone asked Trent about adding Elven Chain into BG1 since there wasn't any. Less than 30 minutes later Philip responded saying that Trent asked him to add in Elven chainmail and now it was there. That's another huge BG1 buff to bards.
Bards are amazing. Even plain bards, though it's a class you should obviously kit because all the kits are insane awesome and it's not like you can dual-class.
I mean, no one plays a plain paladin, not with how overpowered Cavalier is. Even Undead Hunters are huge bonuses for very little downside. No one plays a plain fighter because Berzerker exists.
So I don't buy the "Bards are underpowered" thing. First off, wands. Yeah, okay, mages are "better" at spells. But if you have the money, bards are just as good especially in BG1 because they still reach level 4 spells I believe.
Bards can also equip any weapon. That's a huge deal, being able to equip whatever you want and being diverse in that. It allows you a lot of wiggle room for the rest of your party. They make excellent two-hander wielders for this reason.
They are arguably the best single class once you get into epic levels, too. Epic Bard Song is amazing and essentially negates the only downside to Blades. Spike Traps are totally overpowered. Use All Items is obviously pretty broken.
I really don't know why there are so many people out there who dislike them. Maybe just because the two Bard NPCs in BG1 are so trash?
Comments
Your better off with an extra mage if you intend to use the bard as a spellcaster.
I wouldn't say the Bard is the overall better Spellcaster. The mage still is. I just want to clarify, that the Bard actually is quite good, and doesn't need any major improvements.
Then I guess the fix should then go in baldurs gate 2.
Honestly, making it grew SIGNIFICANTLY stronger over the levels, and give the ability to use it while in melee, would be a good idea.
OR make more amor ,where you can still cast, available for them.
So if you fant to 'fix' somone it should be the pure Fighter classes and kits for example.
Because in the end, they don't stand a chance versus a buffed up Bard who knows how to use his spell arsenal. So, you see, this way the Bard is even a bit overpowered.
But the ADnD classes aren't balanced in the high levels, therefore in BG2, they aren't as well.
In the end it's all about flavour and playstyle, and it is still enjoyable this way, imho
edit:
though I can understand, that you don't like how Bardsong functions in the Infinity games.
Having a character who can't do anything else while singing, isn't quite fun.
Well, I think that if the songs were significantly stronger (like in Heart of Winter -- those were pretty good, as I recall), then it makes more sense to have to choose between singing and engaging in combat, as the coices would be more evenly matched...
Really thought, I think the song would make this class even more original and amazing : the backdraw of a blade was supposed to be the fact that his song never improved, which means that the song was intended to be something strong, but black isle failed at it.
I would really love to see the song getting really more powerful with each new level (but significantly powerful) so that it adds even more variety to a bard play by encouraging you to use the song. It would also help the bard in BG 2 who is weaker, since the song would pack quite a punch at level 9.
Plus you can abuse the hell out of it by casting an army of hasted Skeleton Warriors plus Mislead, let the Illusion sing the overpowered Bardsong and whack your way trough the enemies with your personal army.
Believe me, you can solo the whole game with a single Bard quite easily.
And HLA was mainly for throne of Bhaal. Bards were OK in TOB, so thats not an issue.
I just had an excellent idea : why not adding more bard instrument into the games? INstead of having to buff the song, just allow the instrument to play stronger song.
As you progress, you find better instrument that all makes different songs.
That would allow for a big variety of playstyle, and would really help the bard (especially in BG2), and would actually make the bard song useful?
ANyone agrre?
This description looks good on paper, but it's hardly a fact. If you don't pick a blade , in BG 1, you are going to end up using him solely as a spellcaster.
His melee would be more advantageous if he could sing while melee + if his song was stronger.
I see nothing wrong in my last idea : making the song more useful wouldn't hurt. Making more items specific for bards that improve their song (like a harp...) and allows them to play different song depending on the situation would be amazing.
It would open up a lot more play style possibility. I don't see how anyone could disagree, it would be a nice addition.
Since they'll be adding the pause game function during inventory, I can't do the ol' switch on armor really fast so I don't die for a Hobgoblin elite trick.
Bard song should be improved for all kit :
-Either by improving it every level
-adding several items that boost the song or allows to plays different song
In order to make the bard/skald/jester more polyvalent, he should be able to play the song while he is in melee, that would encourage players to use them in melee more often (except the blade again) instead of just having him spellcasting at the back.
And the sweetest thing of all happened to me in Hell - the Fear demon offered me some stinking cloak, and I could simply flip him a bird, pull out my trusty lute and dance through the lair of fear, singing of valor of my humble self.
So if you don't appreciate the beauty of the bard class... well, your loss, friend.
That way you would have a song that's actually worth something.
Use Any Item. Its one of their possible high level abilities.
I like the fact that some classes are weaker than others, that some classes level faster, that some classes start strong and end up mediocre and that some classes start super weak and end up power houses. It is what adds flavour to a game.
Today the players are so obsessed with balance that the devs seem to be "going with the flow" and you end up with games so balanced that they are borefests, or games that have had so much effort invested in the balance side of the game that the rest of the game is rushed and under developed.
I say leave the bard as it is. I often use bards, because they are not as weak as you claim, as others in this post have already mentioned. I often mix and match my parties when I have play throughs, variety keeps the game interesting and makes me have to readjust tactics/decisions quite often when replaying through for the 100s time.
Just my 2 cents in thoughts when it comes to "Balance!!!" in a single player game. I do think however things that are blatantly broken should be fixed, but the Bard aint broken and is a good class when used right.
I think the problem is alot of people take the Bard and expect a mage. They play the bard like another mage and that just doesnt work great. You need to play the bard as a bard.
Also in good news. In the AMAA someone asked Trent about adding Elven Chain into BG1 since there wasn't any. Less than 30 minutes later Philip responded saying that Trent asked him to add in Elven chainmail and now it was there. That's another huge BG1 buff to bards.
I mean, no one plays a plain paladin, not with how overpowered Cavalier is. Even Undead Hunters are huge bonuses for very little downside. No one plays a plain fighter because Berzerker exists.
So I don't buy the "Bards are underpowered" thing. First off, wands. Yeah, okay, mages are "better" at spells. But if you have the money, bards are just as good especially in BG1 because they still reach level 4 spells I believe.
Bards can also equip any weapon. That's a huge deal, being able to equip whatever you want and being diverse in that. It allows you a lot of wiggle room for the rest of your party. They make excellent two-hander wielders for this reason.
They are arguably the best single class once you get into epic levels, too. Epic Bard Song is amazing and essentially negates the only downside to Blades. Spike Traps are totally overpowered. Use All Items is obviously pretty broken.
I really don't know why there are so many people out there who dislike them. Maybe just because the two Bard NPCs in BG1 are so trash?