look, of course bard song has some bonus, it still sucks big time compared to just casting spells, firing arrows or being in melee. I believe you can do a quick math and find out that a small bonus to look doesn't compensate for an idle party member.
Luckily, you can turn the Bard song off for when you need him to do other things. For most fights, though, spells are completely unnecessary, and will go faster if the warriors and thief are buffed.
It depends on the strength of the buff. +1 to luck and morale don't helps a lot compared to 8 damage each shot/hit.
As much as I agree with what's already been said about Bards, I do rather like the IWD bard songs. This was in IWD 1, as well (HOW, actually, as part of an initiative to improve the pure-classes. Rangers, Paladins, Thieves and ESPECIALLY Druids got a boost as well).
The Bard would gain a new song every other level (accessible by right-clicking on the Bard Song button):
The Ballad of Three Heroes - Allies gain +1 to hit, damage and Saving throws. The Tale of Curran Strongheart - 3rd level. Removes fear. Tymora's Melody - 5th level. Allies get +1 luck, +3 saving throws, and +10% to lore and thieving skills. The Song of Kaudies - 7th level. 50% chance to evade sound-based attacks. The Siren's Yearning - 9th level. Chance of enemies becoming Enthralled (unable to move for a minute or so, or until they take dmg). War Chant of Sith - 11th level. Allies get +2 bonus to AC, +10% res. to slashing, piercing, crushing and missile attacks, plus regenerate 2 HP per round. (Yikes! Unsurprisingly, with this change, Bards became considered an incredibly powerful class)
Obviously those changes wouldn't transition well into BG (Siren's Yearning would effectively make the Jester redundant, and War Chant of Sith is the Skald on total steroids). But a similar idea could work.
As others have said, the Bard is already decent on his own, you just have to play him properly. If you just see him as a Fighter/Mage/Thief for humans, it's probably not going to work out.
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Make a thread about this, that'a actually the solution.
It depends on the strength of the buff. +1 to luck and morale don't helps a lot compared to 8 damage each shot/hit.
That's not necessarily the reality in the early game, though, while the Bard himself has relatively poor THAC0 he might be better off aiding the stronger fighters. You don't have to use the song, of course; That's where the well-roundedness of the bard class comes into play.
I think this thread is evidence that bards are not underpowered, and, more importantly, that people like to play bards in many different ways. The fact that there is no obvious "best way" to play a bard, whether it is by song or sword, tells me that his abilities are already quite balanced.
Personally, I'd be opposed to any changes that would make the existing classes considerably more powerful (like the HoW songs did). All the classes are perfectly playable as-is, and the fact that some of them are more challenging to play (depending on your style) is a big part of why I still enjoy this game so much, even after countless play-throughs.
The one change suggested here that I think I could get behind is the "lingering song" idea. If this was available to vanilla bards only, then that would be a sufficient incentive to not always go with a kit.
And for BG2, I think the HLA song's effects should be dependent on which kit you choose (i.e. not available for the Blade, offensive for the Jester, defensive for the Skald, global-but-less-effective for vanilla). HLAs are a little off-kilter as a whole, though, I hope they get some revision when BG2EE comes around...
PS: If what you want is HoW style songs for your bard, then I think that is more realistically achieved through modding than in the core game.
Another advantage of the Bard that I just remembered:
Lore.
It may not seem like much, but having what is essentially a passive Identify spell active all the time is hugely convenient. It can save you either thousands of gold, or the even more precious spell slots.
Think about it. Identify is largely considered one of the most important level 1 spells, and especially later in the game when spells like Sleep and Colour Spray have long outlived their usefulness, Identify is the big competitor with spells like Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb for space.
So, basically, Lore = More Magic Missiles. How can you say no to that?
As much as I agree with what's already been said about Bards, I do rather like the IWD bard songs. This was in IWD 1, as well (HOW, actually, as part of an initiative to improve the pure-classes. Rangers, Paladins, Thieves and ESPECIALLY Druids got a boost as well).
The Bard would gain a new song every other level (accessible by right-clicking on the Bard Song button):
The Ballad of Three Heroes - Allies gain +1 to hit, damage and Saving throws. The Tale of Curran Strongheart - 3rd level. Removes fear. Tymora's Melody - 5th level. Allies get +1 luck, +3 saving throws, and +10% to lore and thieving skills. The Song of Kaudies - 7th level. 50% chance to evade sound-based attacks. The Siren's Yearning - 9th level. Chance of enemies becoming Enthralled (unable to move for a minute or so, or until they take dmg). War Chant of Sith - 11th level. Allies get +2 bonus to AC, +10% res. to slashing, piercing, crushing and missile attacks, plus regenerate 2 HP per round. (Yikes! Unsurprisingly, with this change, Bards became considered an incredibly powerful class)
Obviously those changes wouldn't transition well into BG (Siren's Yearning would effectively make the Jester redundant, and War Chant of Sith is the Skald on total steroids). But a similar idea could work.
As others have said, the Bard is already decent on his own, you just have to play him properly. If you just see him as a Fighter/Mage/Thief for humans, it's probably not going to work out.
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Make a thread about this, that'a actually the solution.
Done. With a lot of other things from IWD thrown in too.
Give it up, this guy is just trolling. So many people wasted time explaining him why bards are not underpowered. Bard songs in IWD are a bit too strong - especially the War Chant of Sith (bard is main healer). The idea with a selection of playable songs is a fine idea, but it shouldn't break the game.
yeah that is true in BG 1, but not in the 2. His versatility is weak in BG 2 : his pickpocket is useless, his song is useless, his magical ability are weak, he is weak in melee (except blade again).
This description looks good on paper, but it's hardly a fact. If you don't pick a blade , in BG 1, you are going to end up using him solely as a spellcaster. His melee would be more advantageous if he could sing while melee + if his song was stronger.
I see nothing wrong in my last idea : making the song more useful wouldn't hurt. Making more items specific for bards that improve their song (like a harp...) and allows them to play different song depending on the situation would be amazing. It would open up a lot more play style possibility. I don't see how anyone could disagree, it would be a nice addition.
It gets to 100 soon enough, which means you can use him to pick any pocket and let your thief learn other skills. The Bard makes a great supporting spellcaster, just give him the low-level spells that improve depending on the caster's level (like magic missile), and have your mage memorize utility spells. Bard's aren't very good at melee because they can't wear the best armor, but they can make great ranged attackers. The bard song's purpose is to increase morale and remove fear and it does that perfectly.
Hmm, I see two different topics getting intermingled here. There is discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of bards, and there is discussion about whether the class and its kits could stand some tweaking.
On the advantages and disadvantages, here is my two cents on skald, which is the only bard I ever play when I play one: In BG1, I feel very useful. The fact that I can turn invisible more or less permanently and sing my song with no chance of being attacked, as soon as I get a level 2 spell slot, is a huge plus. The plus two to AC and plus two to attack and damage allows my friends to easily overwhelm everything in the game but spellcasters and the very toughest melee fighters.
If a scalable spell like Chromatic Orb or Dispel Magic is needed, the fast leveling means I can cast it better than the mages in my party. I have a good chance to petrify Sarevok with a level ten Chromatic Orb, (assuming I did enough sidequests and ToSC to make level ten, which is possible), and I can abuse the Wand of Monster Summoning and other wands if needed.
In early SoA, my abilities are still useful, but I can't make my party quite so near-invulnerable any more. The mages are starting to surpass me in party usefulness. The lack of spell slots is really starting to hurt.
By late SoA, I am desperately missing seventh, eighth, and ninth level spells. Standing there singing while my party is getting decimated by powerful magic and dragons is starting to make me feel like a coward.
In ToB, I feel only marginally useful at best. Some battles make me feel totally helpless. I wish I had studied wizard magic instead of music.
Bottom line analysis: the class is good for people who want to shine in early game. It falls under the "Fighters are linear; Wizards are Quadratic" trope. The job of "linear" characters is to keep the quadratic wizards alive in early game so they can do their jobs in late game, using the formerly more powerful fighters and rogues as bodyguards. It's all about teamwork from beginning to end, and every class plays an important position on the team.
As to whether the class could stand to be tweaked, I would agree that the base class is useless. Why would you ever take it without a kit? BUT, that's true of all the kitted classes.
A lingering song ability would be tempting, but I think it might make an already powerful class a little TOO powerful, especially in BG1.
As to whether the class could stand to be tweaked, I would agree that the base class is useless. Why would you ever take it without a kit? BUT, that's true of all the kitted classes.
I have to say I find most class kits to have sufficient drawbacks not to invalidate their vanilla counterparts. The most obvious exceptions are Clerics and Paladins, since their kits have no disadvantages (but that's a different topic), wheras the vanilla Bard fits somewhere in the middle -- it still has its own distinguishing features, but the kits feel strictly better.
I think lingering song would be a nice addition to remedy the usefulness of vanilla bards. True, it may be a little OP in the very beginning, but perhaps if it is unlocked somewhere around lvl. 5-7? I'd like to see that in a mod, if nothing else.
I played BG2 with a jester once (for the bard stronghold quests mainly). I didn't think it was that bad. While you were singing opponents were getting confused. A nice perk.
I had a look at some rule books which describe post level 20 class advancement. If you take this into account bards can even learn up to 8th grade spells (opposed to basic rules which cap access to 6th grade).
Here is a comparison for arcane spell power (characters are supposed to have 3mio xp):
Bard
Level 24 Spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/-
Mage (Single Class)
Level 18 Spells 5/5/5/5/5/3/3/2/1
Mage (Multi-Class, e.g. Fighter/Mage)
Level 14 Spells 5/5/5/4/4/2/1/-/-
Mage (Multi-Class, e.g. Fighter/Cleric/Mage)
Level 12 Spells 4/4/4/4/4/1/-/-/-
The biggest difference is caster level. The caster level mainly affects spell effects (e.g. spell duration, damage). Of course lots of spells have a cap on the damage effect. But other effects are not capped.
@beerflavour, I'm pretty sure neither the infinity engine games nor the Neverwinter Nights series implement any bard casting beyond sixth level spells.
You can't necessarily go by the published tabletop rulebooks for the computer games, because they're all adapted from the WotC books and do not necessarily follow every detail exactly.
I have Garrick singing every battle because the song is more useful than anything else he can do. Of course I modded him into a skald. It works but I feel cheesy with a guy just following us around singing. Kind of Monty pythonesc
I have to say I find most class kits to have sufficient drawbacks not to invalidate their vanilla counterparts.
Outside of Ranger (all the kits lose out on the ability to effectively tank due to limited armor selections), I'm curious as to your reasonings for the rest of the classes.
Unless you're rolling a fighter to get grand mastery in a ranged weapon, berzerkers are clearly better than default fighters. If you specialize in hammers, daggers or axes you are still getting grand mastery in a ranged weapon anyway.
Totemic Druid and Avenger both outclass default druids and have very little drawbacks. Totemic Druid gives up shapeshifting for the best summon ability in the game and Avengers give up easy character creation rolls I guess? It's not like you need a lot of strength on a single-class druid and you don't benefit from more than 16 constitution on non-fighter, non-shorties anyway.
Bounty Hunters give up 5 thief points per level but start out with decent enough trap-making even without putting any points into it to actually utilize traps and still gain enough points to find any trap and open any lock by level 6. I can see the drawbacks to the two others being meaningful but here? Nah.
And you've already said Cleric (obvious), Paladin (pretty much obvious) and Bards are all better off as a kit.
@beerflavour, I'm pretty sure neither the infinity engine games nor the Neverwinter Nights series implement any bard casting beyond sixth level spells.
You can't necessarily go by the published tabletop rulebooks for the computer games, because they're all adapted from the WotC books and do not necessarily follow every detail exactly.
As I said. There exist official D&D rulebooks which describe post level 20 advancement. Whether or not it's implemented in the BG series is a different question. Although some of the TOB ideas are taken from the official rulebooks.
I have Garrick singing every battle because the song is more useful than anything else he can do. Of course I modded him into a skald. It works but I feel cheesy with a guy just following us around singing. Kind of Monty pythonesc
@taletotell, You've brought up something about the bard class that I'm always thinking about - how to imagine what he's doing in a realistic way that's cool, as in a movie. While there are several examples available of movies about rpg's that lampoon the class, it's a stigma that we bards need to overcome, as it arises from a failure of imagination.
I like to think of it this way - I either sing repetitive patterns up and down in pitch with my voice, in a style that sounds a bit like a siren call or a ghost's wails, or a sort of "huh-huh-hummph" sound reminiscent of how a football team psychs up by chanting, or I play a haunting tune on my flute, all while invisible.
My party can hear the sounds I make, and know that they are being magically enhanced. In this world, magic is real, and they feel real, empirically demonstrable increases in their strength and sense of being protected and safe. Meanwhile, the enemy hears the same thing, and has no idea where it is coming from, which breaks their concentration and morale. They also feel a vague sense of being magically or psionically attacked.
I also pretend that what spells I can cast are not done the same way as a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric casts magic. Rather than memorizing complicated incantations and gestures and trying to hold dozens of them in my head at a time, or praying to a deity to give me exactly the right incantations and magical weaves at exactly the right moment, I am singing or playing specific combinations of musical pitches that tap into the Weave. My music IS my magic.
I recommend a series of novels called "Spellsinger" by Alan Dean Foster, to read a high fantasy epic that implements this "magic through music" idea very creatively and interestingly.
The Rogue Rebalancing mod also allows for up to 8th level spells for Bards, as per the tabletop rules. Might unbalance the game, however, and I personally didn't use it.
The Rogue Rebalancing mod also allows for up to 8th level spells for Bards, as per the tabletop rules. Might unbalance the game, however, and I personally didn't use it.
Yes the rogue rebalancing is a must for BG 2 + Expansion. And the Icewind dale bard mod seems interresting for the song.
Jesters gain additional affects while they level up and end up reducing the opponents chance to save against it.
Also I feel that really every bard except jester needs lingering song. Otherwise your Skald will do nothing but sing (thus losing out on that +1 Thaco and damage he started with) and your blade will do nothing but attack while still sing.
And yes Pickpocket and Lore are both great. Rings of Free Action are really nice. Just ask Ribald Barterman
Does your precious fighter/mage have UAI? that only makes thief/bard the best classes in game
um, as a fighter/mage, you can use pretty much anything you'll ever need short of carsomyr, which isn't that bad of a trade off considering some of the other powerful weapons in ToB. by the time you get UAI, the bard/skald/blade's thac0 advancement has hobbled them so much that the only relevance they have in a well-rounded party is pretty much being a ***** back-up mage (and considering the power of a normal mage in ToB, you really shouldnt need a backup) that can identify anything easily, or buffing the more capable fighters with the improved song. if you dont have a paladin, you can give them carsomyr and hope they dispel something once in a while.
if i had to make a suggestion for changing the bard, which they won't, i would say give them limited detect+remove traps or make their bard song something they dont have to stand there uselessly to perform (ie, the buff lasts two rounds after song ends). im not saying the game should be all about uberbalanced powergaming, but right now, the bard and its kits come off as a crappy swashbuckler with limited access to spells in place of higher thac0 and thief abilities. it's not really a fair trade off considering that the divine hybrids (paladin, ranger) have limited access to their spell pools but are at least able to specialize and level up on the fighter HP/thac0 tables. granted, they only get up to level 3 whereas bard gets up to level 6 mage spells, but some of the cleric/druid spells up to level 3 are really all you need as a hybrid class. if you want a buffer, they're going to be better every day than the immobile bard, especially considering they can do it in preparation for combat. if you want a cannon, a bard is not the way to go.
it's supposed to be an every-class, but it's completely defeated by the built-in multi/dual class system above level 15. it is a very viable class at lower levels but it quickly loses relevance.
The Rogue Rebalancing mod also allows for up to 8th level spells for Bards, as per the tabletop rules. Might unbalance the game, however, and I personally didn't use it.
LOL, I just checked out the Rogue Rebalancing mod for the first time, and it does more than half of what we've been talking about. Spell progression includes more spell levels, and the new HLA's look totally awesome. I can't believe I haven't been playing with this mod!
Ta-ta, I'm off to install it now and start a new BG2 skald!
With tenser blade gets better thaco than fighter with right weapons 10 attacks per round. Blade can use simulacrum from helmet and double the fun or even sing with the simulacrum. Skald can get up to 8thaco/damage and ac with song and simulacrum.
I have to say I find most class kits to have sufficient drawbacks not to invalidate their vanilla counterparts.
Outside of Ranger (all the kits lose out on the ability to effectively tank due to limited armor selections), I'm curious as to your reasonings for the rest of the classes.
Unless you're rolling a fighter to get grand mastery in a ranged weapon, berzerkers are clearly better than default fighters. If you specialize in hammers, daggers or axes you are still getting grand mastery in a ranged weapon anyway.
Totemic Druid and Avenger both outclass default druids and have very little drawbacks. Totemic Druid gives up shapeshifting for the best summon ability in the game and Avengers give up easy character creation rolls I guess? It's not like you need a lot of strength on a single-class druid and you don't benefit from more than 16 constitution on non-fighter, non-shorties anyway.
Bounty Hunters give up 5 thief points per level but start out with decent enough trap-making even without putting any points into it to actually utilize traps and still gain enough points to find any trap and open any lock by level 6. I can see the drawbacks to the two others being meaningful but here? Nah.
My reasoning is not really based on how powerful the classes/kits are, but how they change the game experience. Most kits offer something unique and flavorful, without overlapping the vanilla class completely.
I'll totally concede that berserkers and bounty hunters overlap too much, though. Same goes for undead hunters, although I completely misrembered the other paladin kits - I'm fine with the "balancing" there.
The problem with these kits, as I see it, isn't that they are more powerful than the vanilla classes (that argument could be made for a lot more of the kits, I'm sure), but that they are essentially the same game experience with an added power bonus on top...
I like vanilla bards, even in BG2 and ToB. I never felt useless. I felt like I was helping my other party members do their best possible jobs. My CHA score is high enough that I get six spell slots per spell level. That's a lot of magic missle, chromatic orbs, Melf's Acid Arrow, fireball, fire arrow, stoneskin, improved invisibility, breach, confusion, chain lightning, death spell, and pierce magic to throw around. I like versatility. Once you start adding items--the amulet that gives negative plane protection, vocalize, and something else, the bard gloves Cespenar upgrades in Watchers' Keep, any elven chain mail but especially the upgraded bardic chain, Gaxx's ring, a ring of wizardry, and boots of speed? Oh, and with faster access to more HLAs than any other character, you can put down a forest of hilariously overpowered spike traps to ruin people's days. Bards are great because they can do whatever needs doing at the time, and in BG2, I think their stronghold quest is the most interesting and fun.
Fighter/Mage at the end of BG2 without ToB installed end up as 13Fight/13Mage.
A level 13 mage does not have access to level 7 spells yet. A level 23 bard (equivalent XP, friend) actually has access to more spells.
F/M has slightly better Thac0 at this stage as it (like all non-fighters) caps at 10. Other than that, they are pretty much identical in every other way.
Once we start talking ToB epic levels, Bards get Use All Items. While not that big a deal in terms of raw equipment, the biggest benefit comes in way of consumable items. Means Bards can wield cleric scrolls, and that is pretty freakin' awesome. Turns them into a back-up everything. Epic Bard Song is also legendary for the buff it gives. Also, Spike Traps.
Long story short, they hold their own even at really high levels. Is that fighter/mage going to be "better"? Probably. Doesn't make the bard useless, and there are plenty of stages in the series that Bard is actually going to be more powerful. It's a trade off.
@beerflavour, LOL, I've seen "Dorkness Rising" before, and I was specifically thinking of that very movie when I mentioned lampoons of bards in film. But like I said, it's a failure of imagination by a writer that didn't like or understand bards. For example, that charm song that he tried at the beginning of the goblin battle would totally have at least gotten a few goblins to start fighting other goblins. Plus, he would have plenty of defensive magic available, including invisibility. He just keeps getting killed in the satire because otherwise it wouldn't have been funny.
It's a really great movie for any gamer to watch, though, because it lampoons all the classes, and I totally identify with the story of the main character as a dungeon master who wants to run a serious, epic campaign, saddled with the only group of players he can find being more interested in absurd levity and powergaming.
I've always loved that female paladin spear fighter - her joke is that she maxes dex and int, and ignores strength, and takes all the so-called "lame" feats, and then she pwns all the guys who laughed at her when she created the character.
Fantastic movie - I need to watch the whole thing again.
@jhart1018: Charisma adding to spells per level for Bards is a 3e invention. High charisma values do not add to your spellcasting prowess in Infinity Engine.
Use it for as much of a dump stat as you can. 2nd level spell Friends + 15 min charisma is all you should ever need.
Unless you just want better CHA for RP purposes, then have at it.
Pen and paper bards rock. They can get into anywhere, use political strife against rulers, counter magic spells, charm creatures. They are great. In BG they are alright. I give them use any item at 4th level to balance them better. Then they can do more than give a boost to others at the cost of doing anything else. My favorite bard in literature: Danilo Thann. He is everything a bard should be.
Comments
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Make a thread about this, that'a actually the solution.
I think this thread is evidence that bards are not underpowered, and, more importantly, that people like to play bards in many different ways. The fact that there is no obvious "best way" to play a bard, whether it is by song or sword, tells me that his abilities are already quite balanced.
Personally, I'd be opposed to any changes that would make the existing classes considerably more powerful (like the HoW songs did). All the classes are perfectly playable as-is, and the fact that some of them are more challenging to play (depending on your style) is a big part of why I still enjoy this game so much, even after countless play-throughs.
The one change suggested here that I think I could get behind is the "lingering song" idea. If this was available to vanilla bards only, then that would be a sufficient incentive to not always go with a kit.
And for BG2, I think the HLA song's effects should be dependent on which kit you choose (i.e. not available for the Blade, offensive for the Jester, defensive for the Skald, global-but-less-effective for vanilla). HLAs are a little off-kilter as a whole, though, I hope they get some revision when BG2EE comes around...
PS: If what you want is HoW style songs for your bard, then I think that is more realistically achieved through modding than in the core game.
Lore.
It may not seem like much, but having what is essentially a passive Identify spell active all the time is hugely convenient. It can save you either thousands of gold, or the even more precious spell slots.
Think about it. Identify is largely considered one of the most important level 1 spells, and especially later in the game when spells like Sleep and Colour Spray have long outlived their usefulness, Identify is the big competitor with spells like Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb for space.
So, basically, Lore = More Magic Missiles. How can you say no to that?
Bard songs in IWD are a bit too strong - especially the War Chant of Sith (bard is main healer). The idea with a selection of playable songs is a fine idea, but it shouldn't break the game.
Bard's aren't very good at melee because they can't wear the best armor, but they can make great ranged attackers. The bard song's purpose is to increase morale and remove fear and it does that perfectly.
On the advantages and disadvantages, here is my two cents on skald, which is the only bard I ever play when I play one: In BG1, I feel very useful. The fact that I can turn invisible more or less permanently and sing my song with no chance of being attacked, as soon as I get a level 2 spell slot, is a huge plus. The plus two to AC and plus two to attack and damage allows my friends to easily overwhelm everything in the game but spellcasters and the very toughest melee fighters.
If a scalable spell like Chromatic Orb or Dispel Magic is needed, the fast leveling means I can cast it better than the mages in my party. I have a good chance to petrify Sarevok with a level ten Chromatic Orb, (assuming I did enough sidequests and ToSC to make level ten, which is possible), and I can abuse the Wand of Monster Summoning and other wands if needed.
In early SoA, my abilities are still useful, but I can't make my party quite so near-invulnerable any more. The mages are starting to surpass me in party usefulness. The lack of spell slots is really starting to hurt.
By late SoA, I am desperately missing seventh, eighth, and ninth level spells. Standing there singing while my party is getting decimated by powerful magic and dragons is starting to make me feel like a coward.
In ToB, I feel only marginally useful at best. Some battles make me feel totally helpless. I wish I had studied wizard magic instead of music.
Bottom line analysis: the class is good for people who want to shine in early game. It falls under the "Fighters are linear; Wizards are Quadratic" trope. The job of "linear" characters is to keep the quadratic wizards alive in early game so they can do their jobs in late game, using the formerly more powerful fighters and rogues as bodyguards. It's all about teamwork from beginning to end, and every class plays an important position on the team.
As to whether the class could stand to be tweaked, I would agree that the base class is useless. Why would you ever take it without a kit? BUT, that's true of all the kitted classes.
A lingering song ability would be tempting, but I think it might make an already powerful class a little TOO powerful, especially in BG1.
I think lingering song would be a nice addition to remedy the usefulness of vanilla bards. True, it may be a little OP in the very beginning, but perhaps if it is unlocked somewhere around lvl. 5-7? I'd like to see that in a mod, if nothing else.
I had a look at some rule books which describe post level 20 class advancement. If you take this into account bards can even learn up to 8th grade spells (opposed to basic rules which cap access to 6th grade).
Here is a comparison for arcane spell power (characters are supposed to have 3mio xp):
Bard
Level 24
Spells 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/-
Mage (Single Class)
Level 18
Spells 5/5/5/5/5/3/3/2/1
Mage (Multi-Class, e.g. Fighter/Mage)
Level 14
Spells 5/5/5/4/4/2/1/-/-
Mage (Multi-Class, e.g. Fighter/Cleric/Mage)
Level 12
Spells 4/4/4/4/4/1/-/-/-
The biggest difference is caster level. The caster level mainly affects spell effects (e.g. spell duration, damage). Of course lots of spells have a cap on the damage effect. But other effects are not capped.
You can't necessarily go by the published tabletop rulebooks for the computer games, because they're all adapted from the WotC books and do not necessarily follow every detail exactly.
It works but I feel cheesy with a guy just following us around singing. Kind of Monty pythonesc
http://www.shsforums.net/topic/39299-bard-song-switching-icewind-mode-for-bg2-v15/
Unless you're rolling a fighter to get grand mastery in a ranged weapon, berzerkers are clearly better than default fighters. If you specialize in hammers, daggers or axes you are still getting grand mastery in a ranged weapon anyway.
Totemic Druid and Avenger both outclass default druids and have very little drawbacks. Totemic Druid gives up shapeshifting for the best summon ability in the game and Avengers give up easy character creation rolls I guess? It's not like you need a lot of strength on a single-class druid and you don't benefit from more than 16 constitution on non-fighter, non-shorties anyway.
Bounty Hunters give up 5 thief points per level but start out with decent enough trap-making even without putting any points into it to actually utilize traps and still gain enough points to find any trap and open any lock by level 6. I can see the drawbacks to the two others being meaningful but here? Nah.
And you've already said Cleric (obvious), Paladin (pretty much obvious) and Bards are all better off as a kit.
This is simply how I see it, of course.
I like to think of it this way - I either sing repetitive patterns up and down in pitch with my voice, in a style that sounds a bit like a siren call or a ghost's wails, or a sort of "huh-huh-hummph" sound reminiscent of how a football team psychs up by chanting, or I play a haunting tune on my flute, all while invisible.
My party can hear the sounds I make, and know that they are being magically enhanced. In this world, magic is real, and they feel real, empirically demonstrable increases in their strength and sense of being protected and safe. Meanwhile, the enemy hears the same thing, and has no idea where it is coming from, which breaks their concentration and morale. They also feel a vague sense of being magically or psionically attacked.
I also pretend that what spells I can cast are not done the same way as a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric casts magic. Rather than memorizing complicated incantations and gestures and trying to hold dozens of them in my head at a time, or praying to a deity to give me exactly the right incantations and magical weaves at exactly the right moment, I am singing or playing specific combinations of musical pitches that tap into the Weave. My music IS my magic.
I recommend a series of novels called "Spellsinger" by Alan Dean Foster, to read a high fantasy epic that implements this "magic through music" idea very creatively and interestingly.
http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Classes_and_Kits#Ranger_Kits
Jesters gain additional affects while they level up and end up reducing the opponents chance to save against it.
Also I feel that really every bard except jester needs lingering song. Otherwise your Skald will do nothing but sing (thus losing out on that +1 Thaco and damage he started with) and your blade will do nothing but attack while still sing.
And yes Pickpocket and Lore are both great. Rings of Free Action are really nice. Just ask Ribald Barterman
if i had to make a suggestion for changing the bard, which they won't, i would say give them limited detect+remove traps or make their bard song something they dont have to stand there uselessly to perform (ie, the buff lasts two rounds after song ends). im not saying the game should be all about uberbalanced powergaming, but right now, the bard and its kits come off as a crappy swashbuckler with limited access to spells in place of higher thac0 and thief abilities. it's not really a fair trade off considering that the divine hybrids (paladin, ranger) have limited access to their spell pools but are at least able to specialize and level up on the fighter HP/thac0 tables. granted, they only get up to level 3 whereas bard gets up to level 6 mage spells, but some of the cleric/druid spells up to level 3 are really all you need as a hybrid class. if you want a buffer, they're going to be better every day than the immobile bard, especially considering they can do it in preparation for combat. if you want a cannon, a bard is not the way to go.
it's supposed to be an every-class, but it's completely defeated by the built-in multi/dual class system above level 15. it is a very viable class at lower levels but it quickly loses relevance.
Ta-ta, I'm off to install it now and start a new BG2 skald!
I'll totally concede that berserkers and bounty hunters overlap too much, though. Same goes for undead hunters, although I completely misrembered the other paladin kits - I'm fine with the "balancing" there.
The problem with these kits, as I see it, isn't that they are more powerful than the vanilla classes (that argument could be made for a lot more of the kits, I'm sure), but that they are essentially the same game experience with an added power bonus on top...
@Solyaris:
Fighter/Mage at the end of BG2 without ToB installed end up as 13Fight/13Mage.
A level 13 mage does not have access to level 7 spells yet. A level 23 bard (equivalent XP, friend) actually has access to more spells.
F/M has slightly better Thac0 at this stage as it (like all non-fighters) caps at 10. Other than that, they are pretty much identical in every other way.
Once we start talking ToB epic levels, Bards get Use All Items. While not that big a deal in terms of raw equipment, the biggest benefit comes in way of consumable items. Means Bards can wield cleric scrolls, and that is pretty freakin' awesome. Turns them into a back-up everything. Epic Bard Song is also legendary for the buff it gives. Also, Spike Traps.
Long story short, they hold their own even at really high levels. Is that fighter/mage going to be "better"? Probably. Doesn't make the bard useless, and there are plenty of stages in the series that Bard is actually going to be more powerful. It's a trade off.
It's a really great movie for any gamer to watch, though, because it lampoons all the classes, and I totally identify with the story of the main character as a dungeon master who wants to run a serious, epic campaign, saddled with the only group of players he can find being more interested in absurd levity and powergaming.
I've always loved that female paladin spear fighter - her joke is that she maxes dex and int, and ignores strength, and takes all the so-called "lame" feats, and then she pwns all the guys who laughed at her when she created the character.
Fantastic movie - I need to watch the whole thing again.
Use it for as much of a dump stat as you can. 2nd level spell Friends + 15 min charisma is all you should ever need.
Unless you just want better CHA for RP purposes, then have at it.
My favorite bard in literature: Danilo Thann. He is everything a bard should be.